DSE vs Air Ride

[snSSter]

HELP !

Okay I have been saving up some cash to upgrade my suspension for one of my 67 Camaros. I have been so back and forth about this suspension combo that I am not sure what to do. So I am hoping for some outside input other than magazines and friends.

Right now I am either going for:

DSE’s Speed 2 Kit that includes Coilovers, Upper and Lower Control Arms, Coilover Conversion, and so on… For the Rear, I am planning on going with DSE’s Quadralink using their Minitubs to get fatter wheels in the back.

Or



I am planning on AirRide’s Front Strong Arm set up (Coilovers and Shockwaves) and their rear Four Link Air Bar set up (w/Shockwaves) but still using DSE’s Minitubs.

I have read a lot of articles about each of the set ups and heard great things about each of them, but I have yet to see anything that has paired them head to head (or I have not paid enough attention to see it). I also priced both packages and found them to be pretty close in total cost.

So I am asking you all for your feed back to help me decide what to do.

Thank you in advance for all the help and support.

[JEFFTATE]

Yes , there has been a direct comparison at a track !
During the Pro-touring / Musclerides .com RunThru the Hills 2 at Pigeon Forge Tn.
Search this site and musclerides.com .
There are comparison photos , videos , discussion, etc..
The cars were put head-to- head on a paved , banked oval track with an "x" in the infield to make a high speed autocross.
It was the Autocross from Hell !
There was even a direct comparison using the same driver !

[Mkelcy]

The short answer is that you needn't make such expensive changes to either the front or rear suspensions to get the car to handle well.

If you want the "bling," then of course the mere expense of the aftermarket suspension adds to the effect.

If you merely want a good handling car, at this point I'd suggest: the ATS tall spindles; new ball joints; C5 front brakes; front coil and rear leaf springs, shocks and a front sway bar from your favorite handling oriented vendors (DSE, GW, Hotchkis, Guldstrand); a third generation IROC steering box; a thorough rebuild of the steering; and weld in subframe connectors and then see where you are.

You can, of course, spend a lot more, as I am in my current build.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

could air ride shocks work with dse springs/leafs?

[darren@ridetech]

Although it is possible to install an air spring on top of the leafs, it's not the best option for performance but it will go up and down. The only way to lower with leafs is to pull out a couple leafs or install a lowering block. I recommend a 4 link.

[JChristian1835]

Hey just my two cents here.. which aren't much... I'm doing what seems like the same lines as what you are doing. The guy that ran the Pigeon Forge deal is a good friend of mine and he says that the DSE car was phenominal. So after talking with DSE and talking with him.. hands down I'm going with DSE's quadralink and the coilover front with the speed 2 kit with the minitubs...

[snSSter]

So far I have leaning more towards DSE all the way through, so that is some great feed back.

I am still up in the air, so I am hoping for more input.

[JChristian1835]

Yeah if you haven't already talk with Adam at DSE first class guy and will answer all your questions quickly and THROUGHLY... lol I think the smallest email he sent me was the equivilent of a small novel... haha.. but he covered every little question i could ever think about...

[JEFFTATE]

The DSE car worked very well , BUT the AIRRIDE cars worked very well also. It just depends on the capabilities you want from the car.

[Bow Tie 67]

I was at the RTTH2 with my 95 Camaro, which is setup for hard cornering. I had the pleasure of DSE's test car following me through some of the backroads at a nice clip. That 69 stayed on my butt and was perfectly level through some hard cornering. And as mentioned above it was very stable and fast on the auto x. The air ride cars did handle well, but I personally do not need a convenient way to change ride height.

I'm currently installing DSE's quadra link in my 69 and have to say it is a very well designed setup. Even the packaging for shipping was well thought out and professional.

[bret]

Yes , there has been a direct comparison at a track !
During the Pro-touring / Musclerides .com RunThru the Hills 2 at Pigeon Forge Tn.
Search this site and musclerides.com .
There are comparison photos , videos , discussion, etc..
The cars were put head-to- head on a paved , banked oval track with an "x" in the infield to make a high speed autocross.
It was the Autocross from Hell !
There was even a direct comparison using the same driver !

While considering my opinion, remember that I am quite biased
A couple of things to consider ...tunability of spring rate and shock valving is a huge asset that many people ignore when considering this suspension. At the Run to the Hills AutoX in Pigeon Forge we were able to dial in our cars very quickly to the extreme track conditions because of the easy adjustability. While the same effect could have theroretically been acheived with conventional components, it would have required component changes that are not feasible most of these type events.
While any suspension can be optimized for a given track or road, none can do it as quickly or as easily as an air suspension.
Specifically, the DSE Quadra Link requires cutting and welding of the floorboard to install. The AirBar requires no cutting or welding on the floorboard or body, and only minimal welding [4 tabs] to the axle housing. This does not mean either system is inherently good or bad...you just need to be aware of it. To some it matters not, to some it is a deal-breaker.

Just like Ford vs. Chevy, blowers vs. turbos, manuals. vs. automatics, I am sure [hope?] this subject will continue to be discussed and debated. I am also reasonably certain that when we demonstrate a clear superiority over traditional suspension , the traditional suspension guys will work their ass off to improve their product. I know for a fact that we are working ours off to make them do just that!

[snSSter]

I have read the everyone's point so far and I have to say thank you to everyone for their input. Whether its personal experience or where to get more information you all have been great. I see the upsides/downsides for each and it still blows my mind that I can go either or.

But, Bret brings up a great point about cutting up the floorpan (for DSE) and the fact of accessability of adjustment height. To me the quick adjustment is a benifit for me, living in Northern Calif where there are some great roads to push the limits on (givin those sirens aren't following me) adjusting the ride before the road would be cool. With the DSE, I would have take more time for me to dial in the ride.

So I am still torn. This is where I wish I had the money to buy both then I can see the difference my self.

[MonzaRacer]

Ok so I am severly biasedbut let me give you my take on differemces.
A DSE moded car will always ride like it rides and you have little control over drivability other than working on the shock rates (with adjustable shocks) and unless you carry around a NASCAR trailer full of springs ,,,you have what you bought. Now dont get me wrong the DSE stuff is awesome and I will give props to anyone making parts for any of our favorite cars.
Now as for ART set up you can dump the air and plant the car and(if equipt) be at ride height in a few seconds to couple of minutes depending on your line size and compressor/tank set up. Another thing is if you want to Power Tour you can pack the car for extended trip simply air up the system to regain ride height and tada your ready to travel.
The neat thing is if you can manipulate the buttons quick enough you can pull in and drop the car down as you park and it really freaks out people seeing you do it. AND i love dropping my truck at a cruize in and drop it right by a ricer, some ove them just dont get it.
OK now I have had my air ride from Bret and company and other than my measuring boo boo it has operated flawlessly. Oh and the ride and handling in a 78 C10 is pretty awesome even with 255/70/15 fronts and 30x9.50.15C rear and I like to climb up behind some of the local turbo'd ricers on the on/off ramps and ride with them as fast as they can TRY to run away from my truck.
Dont get me wrong all I have is cool ride front and rear and took out my leafs for a parallel 4 link and I made it all bolt on which they just started getting out for my model truck.
Let me tell you it gets me as many wows and whys and I like the "Dare to be different" attitude morethan anything.
If you want to try some cars call ART and ask if they would let ya go for a test ride/drive in some of the guys cars then book a redeye to Evansville Indiana and rent a car and driveto Jasper. I bet after you ride in a few cars and actually talk to the guys you will be even more torn.
I have a 77 Monza 2+2 and its getting the air treatment even thoughI am going to have to pony up for shock waves for my front. Now my car turns out a Mustang 2 set up works but I am still working up brackets/control arms for the rear.
And I am working with Mark over at SC&C to build some arms for H-bodies.
I may even swap in some C5 brakes (as I have swaped over to the S10/Gbody spindle) and then if all goes well a high winding all forged 283 with my prototype FlexFI w/DIS and try to run it on E85 as much as possible.
BUT the air ride Tech parts will be in there no doubt.
And for my truck it was the best, most economical choice and it rides/drive fantastic!.
Good luck and enjoy the ride what ever you decide.
Lee Abel

[1Fine69]

iam in the same exact boat as snsster. if you want the best handling deal which one would be better? we already established the easier install i believe

[dgoetz]

I have the air ride tech suspension w/coil overs and 220 lb sprs in the rear of my 68 Camaro and I use the car mostly for autocross and some street riding but not as a daily driver. What I don't understand is with air shocks if you lower your car by lowering your air press arn't you also lowering your spring rate? So in theory you are using higher spr rates in the raised for street position where you want the softer ride and lowering the spr rate in the lowered or racing position where you want the stiffer ride. that is why I chose to use the coil overs. I can still soften up the dampening of the shocks for street riding. But after driving the the car on the autocross courses I have never changed anything for street riding because the car handles so well set up for autocross that i don't want to change a thing. If i want a plush ride I'll drive my Toyota.
Is my thinking incorrect?

[1Fine69]

i hae the 3 inch dropped springs in the rear with qa1 shocks in the rear and there coilover system in the front....how would air ride or a 4 link handle compared to that? i have a things like framconnectors and such but it seems that what i have now is not up to par with the air ride or quadra link.

[ITLBTU]

I don't have either... I would think that the DSE is probably better for all out performance than the Air-Ride because of the longer arms, and the tuning ability. When you want to increase your spring rate you don't have to raise the car. When you raise the rate on the Air-Ride, the car will raise up, then then all of your alignment specs will change, not to mention roll centers, roll couple, axis... I do believe the Air-Ride is probably better in the rear than the leaf springs though.

[dgoetz]

i hae the 3 inch dropped springs in the rear with qa1 shocks in the rear and there coilover system in the front....how would air ride or a 4 link handle compared to that? i have a things like framconnectors and such but it seems that what i have now is not up to par with the air ride or quadra link.

I went from 3' drop leaf spr w/Qa1's, DSE offset shackles and G/W catagory five spherical bearings instead of bushings. To Air ride Tech suspension w/coil overs instead of air shocks and the difference is night and day. No more wheel hop, eliminated most of the oversteer. i even had the rear end move from side to side and hit the inner fender wells. I am running 315"s with mini tubs. and have none of those problems any more.

[wendell]

What's better; Mohamed Ali (in his prime) or New Coke Zero?

Rebuild the front end with a tall spindle and have a spring pack built for the rear. Take the remaining 5K and donate it to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. You'l end up with a very well handling car and the respect of both car people and every one else.

[Rick Dorion]

Or you can put in a tall upper balljoint for even less $. Mark at SC&C has good info and tall UBJs, among other products.