Brake Kit Marketing 101

[andrewb70]

The most left out items of discussion in things such as this..... ??

BIAS, COG movement and tires.

If you look on the "real" tuner sites, they actually use the stopping distance... with what they specialize in. Becasue of the variables, that is where manufacturers have to draw the line in advertising as not to mislead the end user. Case in point, BAER ran into this. They were using "this" point in their early marketing but some of the end users didnt feel that they were getting what was advertised, and that makes sense. If the end user doesnt educate themselves to what it does take to get 'those' numbers, then they lay blame on the manufacturer and or installer.



One example of what you have proposed, Doug Rippie Motorsports. Ole Dougiepoo gives you a good approximate of what to actually expect... with a specific chassis using a few different systems, right up to the high end APRacing system... in which he leaves you to question, "Wow, wonder what them things there do." I can tell you, that their APRacing system is under 100 feet... quite a few under, if the bais and COG is managed correctly and the end user understands threshold braking.

I would go to say that most of the higher end systems are in a 30.. foot distance span, vice the 15 foot span mentioned earlier. There is much to be gained when you step up to the higher end systems if you have such requirements.

The real question is... do you really need that or will you ever utilize that system to its potential ?? Maybe yes, most likely no.

And on one final note... its the tire that stops the chassis, not the brakes.

So basically a bad ass APRacing system will restore your Camaros braking system back to stock 4 wheel drum like performance when used with 20 inch wheels.

<<<Putting the fire suit on>>>

Andrew

[Skip Fix]

I'm sorry I do somewhat agree with BA. They should be able to show their system is better than stock or others, not just based on theory or advertising BS in magazines. Magazine articles are a little suspect also. They are not "peer reviewed" like engineering or scientific articles generally are. They often do have a slant as to who spends the most advertising dollars with the magazine. Example a few years back my machinist build a Pontiac motor that appeared in Muscle Car Review. Motor had an Ultradyne cam, article stated Comp! Many other similar changes.

Some of it gets into brake system design, but I think more is marketing BS.

The variables as I see rotor diameter as a factor to keep constant.Thickness I can give them I don't think most of us would see a 1.00 vs a 1.25 and measure it. Let's maybe assume a 12" rotor we can get a factory 1LE or Baer with them. Not just a big rotor for appearance in big wheels, use a standard sized one.

Many companies have rating of calipers based on sq in of piston(s). Line pressure PSI over more sq in should provide better clamping. So why are Baer with smaller two pistons SQ IN better than a stock second gen with one big single? Do 2 pistons REALLY clamp better on the pad than a single? How do you measure it? "If you can't measure it it isn;t real" is an old engineering saying. Are 4 pistons then not better than 2?

Pad size can be a factor and often isn't even addressed or mentioned. The larger a pad the more surface area for friction and also can cool better.

So on a standard weight 3700 lbs second Gen F body stop better with a factory TA type 4WD, Baer 2 piston front caliper system, Wilwood HD street 10.75 rotor 4 piston front and rear???

The Wilwood standard system use a 4 piston caliper that has an awful small pad, but ALOT of drag cars use them, but they don't have repeatable stops to worry about fade.

[chicane67]

So basically a bad ass APRacing system will restore your Camaros braking system back to stock 4 wheel drum like performance when used with 20 inch wheels.

<<<Putting the fire suit on>>>

Andrew

Uhm... no.

What would give you that impression ?? Feeling a little today Andrew ??

[ks71z28]

So then we create a forum like this to discuss and compare our mods, hey since where here.

My set ups

Baseline- 1968 Firebird 3200 lbs, Tires Bfg TA 225/60/15. front stock sigle piston 11" rotors, rear drum. Stopped every time at 150' from 60mph, like clockwork. Test used cones and measuring tape, and G-tech Pro RR

71 Z28 3550lbs. Tires Kuhmo Mx 275/40/18- Front 12" B-body rotors, Willwood GMiii single piston calipers, rear 78 Cady Seville 11" discs, Hawk HPS pads. Stopped 130-135' from 60 mph.

By the way the road had some dust on it, and I flat spotted the front tires (ouch!)

I would like to see some numbers of a c5 13" set up on a 2nd gen.

[andrewb70]

Uhm... no.

Feeling a little today Andrew ??

Yes...



Andrew

[ks71z28]

So what no one has any numbers, I have found from racing that seat of the pants numbers aren't good ways to quantify changes. Please share you brake systems and any actual useful data you have regarding the set up. This is the best use of this forum, and thanks

Keith