TKO-600 Warning!!!!!!

[chevellefan69]

I just wanted to pass on my experience to everyone out there thinking of putting a TKO600 tranny in their ride. This started out as a pleasure and quickly turned into a nightmare.

In June of 2006, I purchased a complete TKO600 tranny kit from a company called Keisler Engineering that cost me almost $4,ooo. I installed it and even spent 4 hours re-dialing in the bellhousing after I was told that it would be machined out exactly of the existing center (it was a Lakewood shield that was already dialed in to within .003") It came back to me with the machining way off. I then installed the tranny using the proper GM Synchromesh fluid and broke the tranny in for over 1000 miles properly. After driving it around for around 1400 miles or so and only 2-1/2 months, I decided to go to the track just for fun.

This is a street car and I have put it on the chassis dyno (two different places) and it only put out 385 Rear wheel HP and 445 Rear wheel torque. Even if you add a generous 100 to those numbers for drivetrain friction, I am still well within the SUPPOSED 650 Ft.LBS. its rated at. I have Mickey Thompson E.T. Street radials that are pretty soft tires (295-60-15).

My VERY FIRST RUN DOWN down the track, The transmission broke third gear. sheared all of the teeth off. I took of at about 3000 rpm and shifted 1-2 and 2-3 at 6000rpm. I definitely did NOT miss the shift and it was in gear (the dog teeth and synchro blocker rings are in mint shape indicating there was zero missed or grinded shift).

I pulled the unit and sent it back to Keisler for warranty inspection. They looked at it and told me it was determined that it was classified as ABUSE because it was raced at the track. They don't warranty anything that is driven at the track. The gear broke and it is abuse? Have you seen the advertisement from Tremec showing the Mustang pulling the wheels off the ground at the track and stating "Whether it's the endurance needed for Road Racing or the sheer strength necessary to win at the Drags, there's a TREMEC Transmission built for you" (Hot Rod magazine, December 2006, P.67). It shows the TKO600 in that add.

That to me means this transmission was built for the street as well as the strip (at least occasionally). I wouldn't even complain if I took the car to the track many times and put many runs behind it, but the very first run, and it breaks. Remember, only 385 horse at the wheels and 445 lb./ft. at the wheels.

So, I just wanted to warn you if your car is more powerful than this, and you are looking for a Tranny, keep my experience in mind when shopping around as well as the integrity and honor of the company that you purchase from. NOT ONE THAT YOU PAY ALMOST $4000. TO AND THEM THEY BASICALLY TURN THEIR BACK ON YOU WITH LEGAL LOOPHOLES, when they advertise the tranny is strong enough for 650lb./ft., when it breaks, they can say, well it wasn't on the street so we don't have to cover it.

So beware and choose your tranny wisely. I have also found another user with exactly the same destructive results with 3rd gear in the same tranny. Coincidence - I don't think so.

Good Luck Guys.

[Norwoodx55]

Interesting. There are some strong opinions around here about Keisler, have you contacted Tremec directly yet?

[homerneedspeed]

how heavy is the car, what clutch, what are the specifics of the situation. the trans may be rated for 600lb./ft. in a 3000lb car with a stock type clutch not a 4000lb. car with a strip clutch and a sidestep launch.

[chevellefan69]

The car weighs 3820 w/o me in it and it has a Spec Stage 3+ clutch and does hook fairly well off the line at 3000 rpm. I hear what you're sayin', but if that is true, why doesn't 1st or 2nd crap out - they see much more torque than 3rd and the car is already moving pretty well.

I have contacted Tremec directly and they are looking at the pictures to try and analyze what type of failure it is. They told me they cannot warranty the tranny because Keisler opened up the tranny and they cannot be responsible for someone elses work.

Nice situation they have there. Tremec advertises it for racing, but you can't buy it from them direct. Keisler won't cover it under racing - which means what, they aren't confident enough with their own work?

[JMarsa]

If Keisler is a authorized reseller and rebuilder I wouldn't buy what Tremec is saying. Put it to them this way...You can get a lawyer involved and/or you can get the internet involved. Tell them that you’re a member of several enthusiast websites which have thousands of members and you'll post all over them your exact experience (which you already have) for the world to see. If these company’s have a lick of brains, they will quietly satisfy you (at a modest expense to them) rather than risk sales and reputation. How much can it be for them to R&R a gearset at their cost anyway?

I for one have been debating a TKO-600 for a 500RWHP small block car that will have ET streets as well. Stories like this make me think otherwise.

--JMarsa

[Gordz32]

I've heard alot of good thinks about the TKO's infact I bout one. But i didn't go threw Keisler due to the fact that I've heard some negative info about them. I bought threw CC5-speed. I'm sure that you didn't do anything wrong from what it sounds. Go with what was suggested and threaten with a lawyer or internet, also mention Better Business Bureau and that you might make a call to them. That usually works. Good Luck and keep us updated

[Madspeed]

I am to understand that the G Force T56 is taking some STUPID abuse and living.

3K LBS cars making 1200 hp

Im still on the hunt for my perfect 6 speed =)

[formula]

I'll put it to you like this...welcome to Kiesler. They SUUUUUCK.

And I'm not speaking from the outside. I have one of their TKO500's in my car. No trouble yet...but from the way the rest of their operation is run, I find myself worried on a regular schedule.

[4MuscleMachines]

Also, Keisler just bought up all of GM's inventory of Muncie transmissions, NOT GOOD NEWS. Their after the sale service is non-existent.

[Railing68]

Just to re-iterate what has already been said, I would let Keisler know that the bad press you can generate will cost them a lot more than the repair.

How can Tremec state they won't guarantee someone elses work when they are a dealer (Keisler). I had a first run (6/05) trans that leaked fluid from the counter shaft, originally Tremec bached a-little then CC5spd got it taken care of.

Most people I talk to about my TKO bring up Keisler and I always tell them they are most expensive dealer I have seen.

I doesn't make sense in todays information age that they won't even work with you and just charge you parts or something to that effect. Not the best situation but better than having to shell out the entire amount. I know a place you can ship it to if need be, they fixed my trans and seemed to be a pretty good outfit. Let me know. SS

[toofun]

Funny, I didnt get past your first line. Minute I saw "KEISLER" I pretty much stop reading. They seem to have a terrible rep not only on this board but many other boards as well.... I would contact Tremec like others have suggested and see what they can do for you. They may not be able to warranty what you have, but at least they may be able to get that tranny back in proper working order.

GOODLUCK!!

Mark
TOOFUN

[dhardison]

I'm the other user that chevellefan69 was mentioning. You can see my TKO-I carnage pics here:

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=23218

I also lost 3rd (the pics look almost identical), but mine was an early model TKO-I supposedly only rated at 450 ft/lbs torque. My ZZ572 is rated at 650 ft/lbs, so it put a serious hurting on the TKO-I. I made 4 complete passes at the track, also on M/T DRs, and on the 5th pass broke an axle. Once I got that fixed I noticed the trans made a lot of noise in 3rd, especially when decelerating. Third finally let go while shifting out of 2nd under moderate acceleration on the street (and BFG street tires).

Prior to the ZZ572 I had a LS-7 454 (450 fwhp) with the TKO-I. I raced that combo on the track 25-30 times without issue, but each time was one street tires not DRs. I'm not as upset about my TKO carnage as chevellefan69, because I was DEFINITELY exceeding the torque rating of the TKO-I. Now if my new TKO-600 does the same, then I'm going to be pi$$ed.

I've purchased a TKO-600 from CC5S, installed it, but have yet to road test. I've also picked up a replacement countershaft and gears necessary to fix the TKO-I. (TKO replacement parts are expensive!)

As far as Keisler is concerned, well, I've had my experiences with their "used car salesman" attitude and personally think they suck. This thread tells the story:

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=16322

[mikes69z]

Chevelle,

Really sorry to see such carnage in a gearbox. A good trans shouldn't grenade a gear like that with the power you're making and the tires you're running. To which I conclude - the 600 ft-lb rating of the TKO600 is probably a bunch-o-hooey.

[Bandit]

You guys have got me scared now--I am loving driving with my new TKO 600 but now I am going to be thinking twice before shifting into third and getting on it hard. At least until i get back stateside anyway and can afford to have it sent off to have it beefed up and stuff.
Thanks for getting the word out here--really makesone wonder what happened here--did they skimp on quality for the 3rd gear set or what? Because I too would expect it to break in 1st or 2nd where it is really pulling hard. ?

Paul

[dhardison]

The early 3550s, TKO-Is and TKO-IIs had a one piece design countershaft, which had strength issues. One of the changes in the TKO-500 and TKO-600 meant to relieve this issue was to go to a multi-piece countershaft with separate 3rd and 4th gears. These gears are held in place by woodruff keys and the thought was that the keys should sheer before the gears would strip. Obviously not.

Even though my Tremec that broke 3rd was a TKO-I, for some reason it has the multi-piece countershaft design. Didn't matter, it still sheered 3rd and chipped 2nd leaving me with $650 of replacement cost for gears and a countershaft.

[JMarsa]

Does anyone know of shops that upgrade TKO's? Sell stronger gearsets ect.

--JMarsa

[Vegas69]

Correct me if I am wrong but I haven't seen many stories of failed tko trannies? Their are alot of guys with them of course a few are going to fail. I know this doesn't help your situation but nothing has 100% reliability. I still plan to buy one for my project.

[chevellefan69]

I have looked into places that modify or "beef" these trannys up. The two that I heard have had good results are:
http://www.modularmustangracing.com/...rans_drive.htm
This shop has a High 8 sec. mustang (1/4 mile) that this tranny is supposedly living behind all season. They temper the gearset, cluster shaft, input and output shafts which they claim makes them significantly stronger. Check it out - it runs about $550.

This other place :
http://www.promotionpowertrain.com/1231590.html
modifies the synchros and I believe either eliminate or modify the blockers so that it is pro-shifted which eliminates the occurrance of missing the shift at over 6500rpm. I'm not sure if they do any tempering to the gears or not, but this modification is more for the serious racer and not to street friendly. Forget about downshifting from what I have heard.

I will go with option #1 when I get the replacement gears.

I hope this helps!

[JMarsa]

Thanks for the links.

I looked at at Tremec ad in a cuurent Hot Rod and looked up a local vendor (they are known for good T56 upgrades):

http://ddperformance.com/3550tko_parts__upgrades.htm

I noticed:

TG12---3rd Gear,4615(OPS)---3550/TKO. Upgrade from 8620 to super alloy 4615.---$299---Use with TG13
TG13---3rd Gear,4615(OPS)---3550/TKO. Use with TG12.---$199


Another $500 option. Funny how they offer a special 3rd gear huh?

edit: another vendor I know of who sells TKO's is http://www.libertysgears.com/services.htm

I've read of "FACE-PLATING" on T56's over at LS1tech.com seems to be a good bang for the buck to keep those alive.

--JMarsa

[MrQuick]

Yeah when I read this I immediately thought about Dan's Trem. Put this out at a bunch of different boards and maybe we can get some others that are having the same problem. could be a bad batch of gears?

Vegas, its not a bad trans, I personally haven't heard of any problems and I do own one but its not runnig yet. I'd like to see if there is a possible problem with the 3rd gear forging. Try and get ahead of a possible problem.