PT GTO Judge

[ALLFAITH]

Been trolling for years and love the site. All cars here are beautiful, but StreetKings's 73 TA (and Andrew's GTO) is the inspiration to get us really going on a Pontiac project since our 3 Ford projects are done. Besides, teh cheapest car to build is teh one you already own and the body, interior etc. is all restored to stock specs.



My brother and I have a 1969 GTO Judge that we wish to upgrade in PT fashion. It is an original RA3 car with 4 speed and 57xx original miles. We are the 3rd owners. Purists will shriek, why, but we say why not!

Currently the car has Hotchkis sway bars, coils and rear lower control arms--huge improvement.

These are the plans, subject to change and opinions from PT world:
1. Stroked 400 to 461 with aluminum heads etc., aluminum radiator, Paint it blue to look stock etc. Seek 500+ HP and torque
2. Keisler 5-speed or Richmond 6 speed, whichever will go in with minimal floor board cutting etc. Anybody have A body 5 or 6 speed experience ?
3. Add Hotchkiss upper control arms in rear.
4. Global west and QA1 coilovers in front
5. Change factory 10 bolt to 12 bolt. Is it really necessary ? Car will be street drive and maybe dragstrip once in a while
6. Baer 13 inch brakes up front and baer discs in rear
7. 17 inch wheels, Intro makes a wheel that looks like a factory HURST wheel from the 60's or a set of 17 inch Rally II's in chrome.
8. Redline radials to add to the 60's look
9. Interior stock, except add leather wheel and change wood applique to aluminum like a T/A--IS there anything nastier than a hood tach, anyway ?
10. Hidden stereo etc.
11. A/C BIG issue--nobody makes a direct bolt in for 69 GTO's. I do not wish to go donor route. Any experience with making a universal kit work ?

Would love some input from members on any or all aspects of the plan.

Thanks in advance,

Brad

[andrewb70]

Brad,

It sounds like you have a very sound plan.

The Richmond 6spd bolts right up without any major tunnel surgery. Although I think the new TKO600 is a better trans. From what I have seen the TKO will require some major tunnel surgery to fit.

If you remove all the factory heating and A/C from under the dash, you can install a universal Vintage Air system. This will also allow you to smooth out the firewall.

Andrew

These are the plans, subject to change and opinions from PT world:
1. Stroked 400 to 461 with aluminum heads etc., aluminum radiator, Paint it blue to look stock etc. Seek 500+ HP and torque
2. Keisler 5-speed or Richmond 6 speed, whichever will go in with minimal floor board cutting etc. Anybody have A body 5 or 6 speed experience ?
3. Add Hotchkiss upper control arms in rear.
4. Global west and QA1 coilovers in front
5. Change factory 10 bolt to 12 bolt. Is it really necessary ? Car will be street drive and maybe dragstrip once in a while
6. Baer 13 inch brakes up front and baer discs in rear
7. 17 inch wheels, Intro makes a wheel that looks like a factory HURST wheel from the 60's or a set of 17 inch Rally II's in chrome.
8. Redline radials to add to the 60's look
9. Interior stock, except add leather wheel and change wood applique to aluminum like a T/A--IS there anything nastier than a hood tach, anyway ?
10. Hidden stereo etc.
11. A/C BIG issue--nobody makes a direct bolt in for 69 GTO's. I do not wish to go donor route. Any experience with making a universal kit work ?

Would love some input from members on any or all aspects of the plan.

Thanks in advance,

Brad

[Geeto67]

Hey Brad,

Welcome to the board, It's good to see another New Yorker here. I am also doing a GTO project and there are a quite a number of us NYers around so don't be afraid to ask for help, as long as you are buying the beer I'll be around to spin the wrenches. Sounds like a solid plan.

I like your wheel and tire combo idea, I too was goign to do the coker redline radials on a set of intro vista wheels (look like the old 1960's hurst wheels in modern sizes). I am waiting to finish the bodywork to order the rims.

As for the tranny, try to trackdown staged67gspwr, George a fellow new yorker, who has done a 5 speed in a 1967 buick gs. There is a thread over in the street drivetrain section of the performance years website where a guy was talking about the TKO 5 speed in a 72 lemans and that he did have to cut the floor board. From my understanding a t56 doesn't need floor board mods (neither does the keisler, i think) but will require a custom bellhousing (like that new modular one that I forget who makes now).

as for your engine if you are talking about stroking the original 400, don't do it: the 400s are smalll journal go with a 455 as a starting point, it's a better bottom end and much easier to get big numbers out of than a 400 without sacrificing reliability. making 500 hp out of a 455 can be done with bolt on parts, no heavy stroking so what you put into the block you can save on custom cranks and custom machine work. The down side is that 455s are a little more pricey, if you absolutley must use a 400 get another block, I don't disagree with protouring a nice original car, but hacking apart a 51,000mi RAIII judge block is over the line, espically when 400 blocks can be gotten cheap. For a radiator go with a rodney red.

Have you though about replacing your lower control arms as well? even the boxed stockers suck. I was thinking about using metco's aluminum lower control arms becasue super light and are solidly built. You might want to check them out (or edlebrocks also).

As for the AC, vintage air makes a really good system, I have never installed one but I have friends with them and they like it. If you want to go the sleeper route see about using a stock compressor with their setup.

For your rear end, a lof of guys prefer the 12 both for it's strength, but if you are going to replace you might as well go for a 9 inch ford. In the end it will run you about the same money and will be stronger. AS far as the 10 bolt, if you replace the axles and use a corporate 10 bolt (with the bolt on axle retainers instead of c-clips) with a good ring, pinion and posi setup (I hear auburns new road race unit is really nice) it will handle a lot of abuse. If you are lookign to make closer to 600 hp than 500 hp then go with the 9".

Good luck to you, and if you need an help don;t hesitate to call on us.

[ALLFAITH]

Thanks for the offer. i am definietly buying beer.

I saw george's car one nite at at cruise in CT, wickedly nice car. Never saw him to talk though.

I will not use my block, I will use a non-bored 400 from a 67-72 pontiac. Teh 455 scares me b/c from what I undersatnd there needs to be a special frame piece used (hard to find) to put a 455 in a pre 70 GTO. Not sure, ever hear of that ? I lurk on perfromance years website for soem of my information.
I have Hotchkiss lower contraol arm already in rear. Fronts will be Global west with coil overs to adjust ride height.

I need to do some research in rears. No problem using a Ford in a Pontiac, I actually own some nasty Fords, but I worry about matching pick up points for control arms sway bars etc. on pasrts i already own. Same witha 12 bolt b/c most seem to be Chevy and not BOP's. maybe a hi-po rebuold of the stock 10 bolt will be the best idea like you suggested.

Where in NY are you ? I live in Westchester County.

Brad

[PonchoJohn]

Let's try this again...
1) A 455 will bolt in to a pre 70 GTO as long as you use the 389/400 motor mounts for the year of the car receiving it (example 66 389 mounts on a 455 for a 66 car).
2)The stock 10 bolt is plenty stout. It has HUGE bearings that hold the non-c-clipped rear in place. Auburn and others make limited slips diffs for it, and since you're going O/D, lots of gear sets -3.55's and above- are available.
Good Luck!!
PS- Hood tachs are nasty?? Okay.... :rolleyes5

[ALLFAITH]

Poncho John,

For us slow learners:

I can use a 455 in my 69 GTO if I use 69 400 Motor mounts ? ie the ones that are already in the car ?

Also thanks for the 10 bolt advice. I think I will use it and put an auburn with 3.73's in it. You probably saved me $ 1000.00 thanks,

Brad

[Geeto67]

Thanks for the offer. i am definietly buying beer.

I saw george's car one nite at at cruise in CT, wickedly nice car. Never saw him to talk though.

I will not use my block, I will use a non-bored 400 from a 67-72 pontiac. Teh 455 scares me b/c from what I undersatnd there needs to be a special frame piece used (hard to find) to put a 455 in a pre 70 GTO. Not sure, ever hear of that ? I lurk on perfromance years website for soem of my information.
I have Hotchkiss lower contraol arm already in rear. Fronts will be Global west with coil overs to adjust ride height.

I need to do some research in rears. No problem using a Ford in a Pontiac, I actually own some nasty Fords, but I worry about matching pick up points for control arms sway bars etc. on pasrts i already own. Same witha 12 bolt b/c most seem to be Chevy and not BOP's. maybe a hi-po rebuold of the stock 10 bolt will be the best idea like you suggested.

Where in NY are you ? I live in Westchester County.

Brad

I currently live in Queens, But I do a lot of the work on my car in Nassau county at my father's house (because he has the air tools and the welding tanks and my garage in queens if filled with motorcycles).

George is a pretty cool guy, if you need to talk to him he is over at V8buick.com most of the time. I am building a 1967 buick also so I have been trying to get over and take a look at his car (since he lives less than 5 miles from me) but I haven't had the time. Ponchojohn is right about the motormounts with the 455, what you might be thinking of the the difference between the years on 400s and 455 where there are two seperate engine mounts, but none of that stuff is rare - and I think most of it is reproduced. The hotchkis lower arms I have heard are good, do you have the one with the welded sway bar (I have always wondered about how good it works). 9" ford housings that bolt into a-body frames are out there in the aftermarket but can be expensive. If you have all the 9" guts laying around a bare housing shouldn't cost you too bad but I know strange makes a bolt in 9" and a 12" bolt (with c clip eliminators) that are ready to bolt in and go but they cost over a grand. AS for your 10 bolt, unelss you have the weird early one (I think it is the 8.2" or 8.5" ring gear) you should have no problem with parts. Even the oddball ones have parts available but they cost more. I don't make 500 hp but the 10 bolt in my GTO has held up great for five years with an auburn 3.55 gear set and a posi, I drive the car to the trac, I beat on it, and as of yet I have never had to make a single repair on it. If you are going to go overdrive I sggest you think about a numerically high gearset like 3.90s or 4.10s and see about putting a t56 6speed in the car (with the 6 gears I would even go as high as 4.56). I really dig the factory hood tachs, I think it's cool if you keep it in place, I'm adding one to my car when I get the chance.

[Pzary3233]

Hey guys,

For the motor mounts I thought that you had to get an adaptor to fit the later 3 bolt mounts to the earlier 2 bolt frame mounts... Maybe I am wrong but I remember that being an issue when I was thinking of putting in a 76 T/A 400 motor into my 68. I decided against that because of the adaptors. I do think that most earlier block are drilled for both the 3 bolt and the 2 bolt motor mounts.
Year One Catalog I got this from the year one catalog showing what you would be getting into.

[Streetking]

Thanks for the compliment, good luck with your project. If you need anything, please let me know how I can help. Great to see another Pontiac guy here..

SW

[SDMAN]

I also have a PT Pontiac project (70 GTO) underway. As a matter of fact, its only been 4 days since I had it smog sniffed (passed with a 438 on a 450 max HC), inspected and licensed. So I am finally (after over 4 years) able to start using it. Still a lot ot do, but at least its mobile. Same old picture for now. The TKO-600 goes in right after I get the vintage air AC connected and working.



While I havent put a lot of miles on it yet, the drivetrain, suspension and brakes are all working really well.

[mar3]

Since it sounds like he's ready to drop some $$$, he oughtta look into the IAII block that is just about ready to come out...an aluminum version is also planned shortly and these blocks will accept all the traditional Pontiac hardware you have right now. With the right crank, they can be bored for the 500+ cid numbers easily...

[SDMAN]

The new iron IA blocks are already out. I have an original one. The only reason I havent taken the new motor into the machine shop is the new aluminum block. According to AllPontiac, availability this fall, and Im willing to wait. These blocks (both the iron and aluminum) allow for easy 500-540 inch traditional Pontiac motors.



This one will be a 535-541 inch pump gas motor for the 70.

[ALLFAITH]

SD man,

Car looks great. Can you tell me about the suspension, brakes and rear set up. Also do you have the backspacing on the wheels front and back.

Any idea on cost of the iron block when it becomes available?

Thanks,

Brad

[PonchoJohn]

Hey Tom,
Great to see the Goat coming along!!
Re: 76 400- The reason you need an adapter for that block is the factory only tapped, and in some cases only cast the bosses for, the three bolt pattern.
All 455's have the 5 motor mount bolt pattern on the side. They fit early and late frames.
AllFaith- sorry this is late, but as someone stated, Yes the 69 400 engine mounts will allow you to bolt a 455 into your chassis. In 1970 the A-body cars got a seperate 455 engine/frame mount combo. When I put the 455 in my 68 LeMans, I just used the stock 350 frame mounts and the 350/400 engine mounts.
Have fun!

[SDMAN]

Lets see if this works. Posted a reply 4 times and all of them failed.

Allfaith,
The iron aftermarket Pontiac block is available now. Cost for a new one is $2995. Occasionally a used one pops up and you can pick those up for less money.

On my 70, the front suspension uses Hotchkiss upper A-arms, Global West lower A-arms, tall B-body spindles, HO racing 1.375" sway bar, QA-1 coil over setup with 600# springs and an AGR quick ratio (2.7 turns lock to lock) box. The front track was narrowed .875" on each side (by putting the tubular A-arms in a custom jig and shortening them) to make room for the 275/35X18 tires on Budnik 18X9.5" rims (5.375" bs).

Out back are Hotchkiss lowers and braces, ****-Miller double adjustable uppers, QA-1 shocks, custom 200# Coil Spring Specialties springs and a trunk mounted (mounted to the 8 point down bars) ****-Miller torsion bar setup. All these parts mount a Morisson braced and narrowed 9" Ford housing. Each wheelwell has had a 2.5" mini tub to make room for the 345/35X18 tires on Budnil 12X18" rims (5" bs).

If you would like any specific info, feel free to E-mail me.

[SDMAN]

OOPS! Forgot one. There are 12" Baer brakes at all 4 corners.

[ALLFAITH]

Thanks, car looks great, stance is perfect, I had to figure mini-tub.

I will probably stick with 17's to avoid the mini-tub, but your front suspension sounds on target. Why the Hotchkis/Global combo instead of teh Global upper and lower with QA-1 coil overs ? Is there a difference ?

Brad

[SDMAN]

There are 2 reasons Im using the Hotchkiss uppers. This is a (completely out of control) long term project. When I initially did the tall spindle upgrade, I was going to use the factory lower. So I already had the Hotchkiss uppers when I changed and went with the coil over setup. Secondly, after comparing the Hotchkiss to the GW uppers it looked like narrowing the Hotchkiss would involve less tube cutting and re-welding.