R12 private purchase.

[71Lemans]

Can I legaly purchase a couple of 12oz. cans of r12 without an EPA liscence number? I have 3 cans and need 2 more.

[KUL FIR CHICK N]

NO.
But, you can get your liscense on line, after taking a simple test. About $20 and 20 min. and you're there. Its really easier than it should be.

http://www.epatest.com/e_home.html

You should study up a bit, but its pretty much just common sense.

[71Lemans]

Thank you.

[engine]

It's funny, that you can get the license online. You can get just about anything these days. When I got my EPA license about 10 years ago, I had to take an 8 course and the test was 4 parts. Part 1 was the Core. You HAD to pass this, otherwise forget it. PArt 2 was small appliance refrigerant handling. Part 3, large equipment refrigerant handling. Part 4 was low pressure refrigerant handling and recovery (R11, R123)
If you pass the core, but fail the rest, you can always retake that part at a later date. If you fail the core, you had to take the couse all over again.
In this day and age of more stringent EPA standards, it is easier for anyone to get the license and F**k everything up...ironic.

But the original question, you shouldn't be able to buy R12 w/o a license, anywhere. But, as the world works...money talks.

[LS6 Tommy]

It's funny, that you can get the license online. You can get just about anything these days. When I got my EPA license about 10 years ago, I had to take an 8 course and the test was 4 parts. Part 1 was the Core. You HAD to pass this, otherwise forget it. PArt 2 was small appliance refrigerant handling. Part 3, large equipment refrigerant handling. Part 4 was low pressure refrigerant handling and recovery (R11, R123)
If you pass the core, but fail the rest, you can always retake that part at a later date. If you fail the core, you had to take the couse all over again.
In this day and age of more stringent EPA standards, it is easier for anyone to get the license and F**k everything up...ironic.

But the original question, you shouldn't be able to buy R12 w/o a license, anywhere. But, as the world works...money talks.

That test you took is not the "Mobile" test. They are two completely different certifications. You cannot legally purchase any refrigerants other the the ones used in vehicle comfort cooling unless you took the course you took.

Tommy

[Madspeed]

That test you took is not the "Mobile" test. They are two completely different certifications. You cannot legally purchase any refrigerants other the the ones used in vehicle comfort cooling unless you took the course you took.

Tommy

Relly?
I have a macs Lic and I buy home refrigderant as well as R12
And nobody has ever said poop about it they just take the number down and move on =)

[LS6 Tommy]

Relly?
I have a macs Lic and I buy home refrigderant as well as R12
And nobody has ever said poop about it they just take the number down and move on =)

Yeah, some supply houses aren't too "secure". They may also think mnothing of it beacuse so many refrigerated traliers and straight-jobs use the "stationary" refrigerants. Heck, I can't even count how many times I've used my Universal cert to buy R12 at an auto parts store and they shouldn't let me.

Tommy

[RSX302]

Direct replacement
Hot Shot R-414B

[JamesJ]

I see it for sell at many differnent swap meets here in TX and in CA for under $20 a can

[RobM]

i just took a very long corse to get my 609 certification. if i had known you could get it online.... I always thought r12 was very expencive. people have told me there is a black market in mexico for the stuff and it brings in some serious cash. I personly dont think handling refrigerant is THAT big of a deal. Industry depleets the ozon far more and big companies can buy their way out of having low emissions. What is a big deal is hack mechanics that use gasses like PROPANE to recharge AC systems. very scary

[engine]

Well, handling refrigerant became a big deal with the Montreal Protocall of '92, which banned the manufacturing of R12 in the US, and whatever other countries were involved in the MP. I don't think Mexico was a part of it, so they can keep manufacturing it however long they want. You can still buy it, and it is still being made. The quality of the refrigerant may not be as good as when DuPont made it, but it works. A 30 lb cylinder of R12 from Mexico goes for about $800.

When I got my certification in '96, it was a VERY big deal. You had to take a 6-8 hour course and take a test right then and there. I just don't understand why it is so lax today. Maybe the internet ruined everything. Hey, you can get a Bachelors degree online, too...

ANd there are those Freeze12 or HotShot refrigerants that are "R12 drop-in replacements". These faux R12 gases are actually made up of 3 different refrigerants, combined in spesific percentages per volume to give "similar" cooling and behavioral characteristics of R12. They do contain a small amount of propane or isobutane in them. But you have to know, Propane and Butane ARE indeed refrigerants as well. So is Ammonia; and water of all things. The refrigerant number designation for water is R-718.

[RobM]

i took that same 6-8 hour course and took the test right there..... i cant believe you can get it online.

[engine]

http://www.epatest.com/

[vintageracer]

It's interesting if you look at some of the "drop ins" to replace R12. Freeze 12 is over 80% R134 according to the can.

Why not use sulfur dioxide? It's a great refrigerant and was one of the 1st commercial refreigerants used in refrigerators back in the 1930's. One little problem though is if you have a leak. Mix a S02 (sulfer dioxide) gas/vapor leak with the H20 (water) inside your lungs and you get sulfurous acid. This eats your lungs out from the inside. Minor detail.

The refrigerants used in European cars are all based upon flamable gases. Read the can, R134A is also flamable.

[derekf]

"Global Warming" has the potential to rapidly become a political discussion. Please don't let it go that direction.

[ProTouring442]

"Global Warming" has the potential to rapidly become a political discussion. Please don't let it go that direction.

Sorry if it does, don't mean it too. Just pointing out that we don't know.

If anyone finds it offensive, I'll gladly delete it!

Shiny Side Up!
Bill
'72 442 "Inamorata"
www.fquick.com/ProTouring442

[MonzaRacer]

One if you buy R12 illegally you can an still do reap the rewards of the fines, Installer $10k, immediate supervisor (ie boss, service manager) $25k, store manager/shop owner $100k.
I for one just love seeing people try to patch/fix AC on there own.
After being an AC tech for many years and seeing people just (dump) install R12 and then wonder why they have problems.
Another thing is the small cans are no longer available for the most part and if you get any they may be counterfeit.
Drop ins are not a fix. another thing is its illegal to use drop ins improperly.
ALL REFRIGERANTS MUST BE LABELED,AND HAVE SPECIFIC ADAPTERS INSTALLED. cross contamination is possible if you add several things and does anyone know what R12/R134A mixed together makes, a carbon tetrachloride bomb.
Please just pony up and take you ride to a respectable profesional and get it recycled, evacted( pulled to vacuum to boil off the possible moisture in the AC system that degrades the dessicant and degrades the performance) add proper amounts of UV dye and recharge with manufacturers recommeneded amount of refrigerant.
Now if you are smart you purchase a new drier/accumulator/rebuilt VIR etc containing either XH7 or XH9 dessicant (7 is most popular as its compatible with both refrigerants) retrofit with (in older systems) ester refrigerant oil (if you use a newer model compressor it may require PAG oil instead) then recharge the system with 80% to 100% of normal capacity with R134A. A good flushing is always proper to remove any bad contaminates. And most of the drop ins dont wont carry lubricant right nor match the dessicants. ANS just dumping it in is a good way to trash it.
If yor car uses an orifice tube you should use an AAOT (automatic adjusting orifce tube) as it makes the system function more efficiently (I use them on r12 and retrofits).
I actually have removed much of the hardware from stock systems ,used a repair orifice tube holder (if it fits) in the line to the evaporator, then retrofit an accumulator/dryer and cycling switch to the system then recharge ( if you use a good air flow through the condenser, and use rule of max low side idle psi of 28psi and then rev it up to about 1500 to 2000 and it not cycle out then its full enough. Then I add 2 retrofit tags one underhood and one on door (I will option to put the second tag in trunk/glovebox/console) the tags are to have the amount of refrigerant and amount of oil system uses and type.
Trust me you can patch and scrounge and do it all wrong but in the long run you can get in trouble, trash the system and just plain not work properly.
Guys you can tell me im full of it but a friend had to go out of buisness after getting busted for using un approved refrigerants.
You guys will blow $10k on suspension,paint,interior,driveline but NOT take it to profesional to be fixed properly.
As for the environment problems actually sunlight breaks ozone down and ozones best production plnat on the earth is ,,,the oceans. Iron/steel in salt water will produce more ozone than you can believe.
But Chloroflorocarbons do breakdown ozone but many more time the tonnage in mobile AC systems was used in industry for years. AND R134A is still a greenhouse gas.
But why do we shy away from doing something that makes sense? Do we want to drink water with lead in it, no we recycle the batteries from our cars. They started finding that MTBE (an oxegenate used in gasoline) was showing up in kids blood streams so we switched to ,,hhmmmm alcohol,and it has higher octane rating ok much safer and better for economy. (hey E85 is 105 octane at the pump, 13 to 1 popups anyone?).
We wouldnt dump motor oil in our home well if we had one would we so why are we so hyped about vewnting refrigerant to air, adding it our selfs and doing it wrong in first place.
Besdies most places will identify your system content and if its pure recycle it for you (yes some ask a price for it as the equipment is very expensive)
Oh and if you decide to Vintage Air has some awesome stuff and it uses very little refrigerant and is pretty much bullet proof.
Ok now flame me , scream at me call me what ever but I know what it takes to do it right and this is not your biggest expense, that $2k for brakes maybe is though? huh?
Lee Abel
ASE Master automotive Technician
ASE L1 Advanced Engine performance Technician
ASE Master Gas Engine MAchinist
ASE F1 Alternative Fuels Technician
ASE X! Ehaust Specialist
ASE Undercar Specialist
IMACA Certifies
Advance Engine Management Strageties
and 20+ yrs on the job and under a tree.
AFTERMARKET PERFORMANCE

[ProTouring442]

But Chloroflorocarbons do breakdown ozone but many more time the tonnage in mobile AC systems was used in industry for years. AND R134A is still a greenhouse gas.
But why do we shy away from doing something that makes sense? Do we want to drink water with lead in it, no we recycle the batteries from our cars. They started finding that MTBE (an oxegenate used in gasoline) was showing up in kids blood streams so we switched to ,,hhmmmm alcohol,and it has higher octane rating ok much safer and better for economy.

My point was that we simply don't know. That MTBE that is polluting my local ground water (need to get my well tested) was MANDATED by the government, and pushed heavily by those scientists who love to rant about climate change. The same ones who said it was going to get colder, and now say it's going to get warmer. They said MTBE was the stuff to save us, now it's the stuff that's going to kill us. Why do we listen to these guys?

And where do we get our information, the news. Yeah great source there, remember the "exploding" Chevy pick ups? Same station did a report on a factory in VA (I think it was VA) that was killing fish by the thousands, they even showed pictures. Only problem? The pictures were of stunned fish from some scientist's sonic experiments. Seems that when they showed up to see the dead fish at the factiry, there weren't any so they just showed some file footage of what looked like dead fish.

Yes, we should get a professional to work on our A/C systems. Then again, most pro's won't work on an unknown system. The hybrid system in my 442 for example; I have no idea how much refrigerent belongs in it. No idea how much oil should be added. I will use propper lines, and 134A, and I will vent as little as possible when dialing the system in. It's the best I can do. From there I may have it drawn down to see how much is really there, and make a note of what it was to if I ever need to refill I can do so without venting any.

Anyway, sorry for the rant.

Shiny Side Up!
Bill
'72 442 "Inamorata"
www.FQuick.com/ProTouring442

[LS6 Tommy]

Here's another good one- The $25k "reward" for turning someone in to the EPA for venting or improper handling/sales of refrigerant has NEVER been awarded to anyone. There isn't even a fund for it.

Tommy

[MonzaRacer]

As for the reward it was written but never implemented under EPA mandate.
Yes MTBE was touted as a better way to go but do you know in what it was replacing for octane modification in gasoline? LEAD and we already know what that can do to young children.
MTBE was and is a great product for certain industrial uses in a controle d environment where it can be reclaimed as a VOC (similar to ford using VOC from paint to run a 55 Kilowatt generator).
But MTBE burns slower(hence the octane rating over lead)but had we had infrastructure to use alcohol back in the day we would have as we know its ricks/benefits.
Now as for a shop not wanting to work on it then you need to find a shop who has someone in it who actually cares about doing good work and not some shop that only wants the "quick and dirty" money jobs.
I fuss with my service manager all the time that we need to take some more technicaly challenging jobs but he keeps saying we dont have time/we shouldnt get into this but I keep only getting minimum week paychecks so,,,,,.
I for one will work on ANYTHING if they put it in front of me and I work for Bridgestone/Firestone at a Mastercare facility.
As for AC if yhe shop wont work on the system "because" its not factory, then most likely they dont understand AC thermal dynamics and the basics for AC service. Another thig to ask for is if they have a refrigerant identifier.
Again the best way to fill a retrofit or mixed aprt aftermarket set up is get it to hard vacuum for atleast an hour on a new drier and 2 hours on an old(re used drier ,and this means one used with same refrigrant going back in NEVER MIX REFRIGERANTS or use R134A in an R12 system without proper cleaning and replacement of drier dessicant)drier.
Then I add R134A refrigerant with system powered up till compressor kicks in (you can also jumper the switch but this tells you if switch is working if you dont) then with a strong fan on condenser to maintain a steady high side reading, you add till you get a steady 28 psi on low side then you rev engine up to 1500-2000 and see if it cycles out. IF it pulls down to past low side cycle switch and kicks out , opps do you have R12 or R134A switch on it? As R134A has a lower preasure point it needs a different switch, most vehicles (or partial systems tagged from specific vehicle) if current models, will have newer factory R134A system and you can use those switches (or if you are like most hot rodders just go to junkyard and finde R134A car and tag switch with same connector make up).
I also use a dual probe temp guage and what you should look for in an AC system is a 30 degree drop inside and if I remeber corectly the difference of temps on a condenser should be 40 deg difference from inlet ot outlet (ie higher as it is rejecting heat to atmosphere) aluminum collor condensers are harder to check so finding a smooth flat area and giving it a shot of (masked properly of course)flat black paint so tech has a place to check with temp gun is handy and you dont need to paint whole core if you dont want.
But black aluminum condesers reject heat faster than bare aluminum and the bare one has no environmental protection.
Now copper/brass rads need paint to help reject heat better AND retain fins adhesion to tubes (ie it glues then together ) BUT plastic /alum rads need to be bare(they are treated to not corrode, hmm why dont they do all condenser i dont know (it really depends on condenser manufacturers some paint some dont).
And if anyone is ever in Bloomington Indiana just swing over on east side and look me up at Firestone,,, ask for Lee, and I can usually fix up the sys tem no problem.
Good luck to all
Lee Abel