R12 private purchase.

[71Lemans]

Can I legaly purchase a couple of 12oz. cans of r12 without an EPA liscence number? I have 3 cans and need 2 more.

[KUL FIR CHICK N]

NO.
But, you can get your liscense on line, after taking a simple test. About $20 and 20 min. and you're there. Its really easier than it should be.

http://www.epatest.com/e_home.html

You should study up a bit, but its pretty much just common sense.

[71Lemans]

Thank you.

[engine]

It's funny, that you can get the license online. You can get just about anything these days. When I got my EPA license about 10 years ago, I had to take an 8 course and the test was 4 parts. Part 1 was the Core. You HAD to pass this, otherwise forget it. PArt 2 was small appliance refrigerant handling. Part 3, large equipment refrigerant handling. Part 4 was low pressure refrigerant handling and recovery (R11, R123)
If you pass the core, but fail the rest, you can always retake that part at a later date. If you fail the core, you had to take the couse all over again.
In this day and age of more stringent EPA standards, it is easier for anyone to get the license and F**k everything up...ironic.

But the original question, you shouldn't be able to buy R12 w/o a license, anywhere. But, as the world works...money talks.

[JamesJ]

I see it for sell at many differnent swap meets here in TX and in CA for under $20 a can

[RobM]

i just took a very long corse to get my 609 certification. if i had known you could get it online.... I always thought r12 was very expencive. people have told me there is a black market in mexico for the stuff and it brings in some serious cash. I personly dont think handling refrigerant is THAT big of a deal. Industry depleets the ozon far more and big companies can buy their way out of having low emissions. What is a big deal is hack mechanics that use gasses like PROPANE to recharge AC systems. very scary

[engine]

Well, handling refrigerant became a big deal with the Montreal Protocall of '92, which banned the manufacturing of R12 in the US, and whatever other countries were involved in the MP. I don't think Mexico was a part of it, so they can keep manufacturing it however long they want. You can still buy it, and it is still being made. The quality of the refrigerant may not be as good as when DuPont made it, but it works. A 30 lb cylinder of R12 from Mexico goes for about $800.

When I got my certification in '96, it was a VERY big deal. You had to take a 6-8 hour course and take a test right then and there. I just don't understand why it is so lax today. Maybe the internet ruined everything. Hey, you can get a Bachelors degree online, too...

ANd there are those Freeze12 or HotShot refrigerants that are "R12 drop-in replacements". These faux R12 gases are actually made up of 3 different refrigerants, combined in spesific percentages per volume to give "similar" cooling and behavioral characteristics of R12. They do contain a small amount of propane or isobutane in them. But you have to know, Propane and Butane ARE indeed refrigerants as well. So is Ammonia; and water of all things. The refrigerant number designation for water is R-718.

[RobM]

i took that same 6-8 hour course and took the test right there..... i cant believe you can get it online.

[engine]

http://www.epatest.com/

[LS6 Tommy]

It's funny, that you can get the license online. You can get just about anything these days. When I got my EPA license about 10 years ago, I had to take an 8 course and the test was 4 parts. Part 1 was the Core. You HAD to pass this, otherwise forget it. PArt 2 was small appliance refrigerant handling. Part 3, large equipment refrigerant handling. Part 4 was low pressure refrigerant handling and recovery (R11, R123)
If you pass the core, but fail the rest, you can always retake that part at a later date. If you fail the core, you had to take the couse all over again.
In this day and age of more stringent EPA standards, it is easier for anyone to get the license and F**k everything up...ironic.

But the original question, you shouldn't be able to buy R12 w/o a license, anywhere. But, as the world works...money talks.

That test you took is not the "Mobile" test. They are two completely different certifications. You cannot legally purchase any refrigerants other the the ones used in vehicle comfort cooling unless you took the course you took.

Tommy

[Madspeed]

That test you took is not the "Mobile" test. They are two completely different certifications. You cannot legally purchase any refrigerants other the the ones used in vehicle comfort cooling unless you took the course you took.

Tommy

Relly?
I have a macs Lic and I buy home refrigderant as well as R12
And nobody has ever said poop about it they just take the number down and move on =)

[LS6 Tommy]

Relly?
I have a macs Lic and I buy home refrigderant as well as R12
And nobody has ever said poop about it they just take the number down and move on =)

Yeah, some supply houses aren't too "secure". They may also think mnothing of it beacuse so many refrigerated traliers and straight-jobs use the "stationary" refrigerants. Heck, I can't even count how many times I've used my Universal cert to buy R12 at an auto parts store and they shouldn't let me.

Tommy

[RSX302]

Direct replacement
Hot Shot R-414B

[engine]

Direct replacement
Hot Shot R-414B

the only problem I see with that, is becasue it is a Ternary blend (3 different refrigerants), each refrigerant in that blent will have a different saturation point, and if you leak a little out, you may leak out only one or 2 of the 3. Usually, if you leak out 30% of the charge, you can't top it off with good results. You have to completely evacuate it and start fresh.

It contains propane or butane as one of the refrigerants, but only a small amount. This raises a lot of eyebrows as far as safety is concerned, butyou're still holding 20 gallons of gasoline in the car, and can be more of a threat than 1 ounce of Butane...

[RSX302]

Yes you are right, but you should be fixing your leaks to begin with.

I'll buy a 20lb'er of 414b before I buy a 20lb'er of R-12.(Take out a second on my house)

The way I see it you can buy gauges, vacuum pump, 414b and still have money left over to pay for some A/C classes. Then you can do it as many times as you want.

Thanks..That reminds me... I need to get all my stuff back from the guy I loaned it to.

[vintageracer]

It's interesting if you look at some of the "drop ins" to replace R12. Freeze 12 is over 80% R134 according to the can.

Why not use sulfur dioxide? It's a great refrigerant and was one of the 1st commercial refreigerants used in refrigerators back in the 1930's. One little problem though is if you have a leak. Mix a S02 (sulfer dioxide) gas/vapor leak with the H20 (water) inside your lungs and you get sulfurous acid. This eats your lungs out from the inside. Minor detail.

The refrigerants used in European cars are all based upon flamable gases. Read the can, R134A is also flamable.

[LS6 Tommy]

It contains propane or butane as one of the refrigerants, but only a small amount. This raises a lot of eyebrows as far as safety is concerned, butyou're still holding 20 gallons of gasoline in the car, and can be more of a threat than 1 ounce of Butane...

Remember, gasoline doesn't burn in liquid form. It has to be atomized. I've seen plenty of vehicles with ruptured fuel tanks that didn't explode. I can't count the number of reports I've read about the non-UL approved refrigerants that containe butane/propane that had explosions even in minor front end collisions.

Tommy

[ProTouring442]

Remember, gasoline doesn't burn in liquid form. It has to be atomized. I've seen plenty of vehicles with ruptured fuel tanks that didn't explode. I can't count the number of reports I've read about the non-UL approved refrigerants that containe butane/propane that had explosions even in minor front end collisions.

Tommy

Also remember that gas fumes fall, and the bottom of the cr is open. An evaporator leak lets the propane/butane/etc. into the closed cabin of the car. Further, many of the "drop-in" refigerants won't carry the oil like they should, instead allowing it to collect in the evaporator. Even if this doesn't lead to compressor failure, it will degrade the cooling capacity of the system. Finally, if a repair shop detects any of these off-brand refrigerants in your system, they will likely not work on your car.

That being said, did you know that every time the space shuttle is launched or a volcano erupts, more CFCs are dumped into the atmosphere than were ever installed in mobile air conditioning systems?

Shiny Side Up!
Bill
'72 442 "Inamorata"

[LS6 Tommy]

That being said, did you know that every time the space shuttle is launched or a volcano erupts, more CFCs are dumped into the atmosphere than were ever installed in mobile air conditioning systems?

Shiny Side Up!
Bill
'72 442 "Inamorata"

I've been syaing that for YEARS. Here's a couple I picked up on when I used to proctor the EPA refrigerant handling and recovery exams-

1) The "scientists" that work for the EPA tell us it takes roughly 100 years for a chlorine atom to break down and get up into the atmosphere where it degrades the ozone layer. According to their own info, we haven't used CFC's long enough to have made the hole bigger.
2) They also have only been aware of the hole in the ozone layer for a relatively short period of time, and they know that it gets smaller and bigger all the time. How do they know that there's even an actual problem? It might have been that way for millenium.
3) When oxygen atoms are oxposed to UV light, they couple to form ozone. Wouldn't that make the ozone layer self-healing to a certain extent?

Tommy

[ProTouring442]

I've been syaing that for YEARS. Here's a couple I picked up on when I used to proctor the EPA refrigerant handling and recovery exams-

1) The "scientists" that work for the EPA tell us it takes roughly 100 years for a chlorine atom to break down and get up into the atmosphere where it degrades the ozone layer. According to their own info, we haven't used CFC's long enough to have made the hole bigger.
2) They also have only been aware of the hole in the ozone layer for a relatively short period of time, and they know that it gets smaller and bigger all the time. How do they know that there's even an actual problem? It might have been that way for millenium.
3) When oxygen atoms are oxposed to UV light, they couple to form ozone. Wouldn't that make the ozone layer self-healing to a certain extent?

Tommy

The fact is, they don't know. They just "think" they know. Worst is, they are really one guessing at what they "think" they know!

They really don't know much at all about the climate. We have maybe 200 years of climate data, maybe only 100 years of data that is anything near comprehensive. To claim to have any idea as to what climate change is going on and the reasons behind it, based on that 100 or 200 years of data, is simply silly. Think about it, the earth is billions of years old (if you believe the big-bang evolutionists) at the most, and at least 10,000 yeas old (if you believe the literal interp. fundementalist christians). To base your thoughts on what should or shouldn't be happening on the little data we have is like deciding to base what the whole year's weather should look like based on what it does today.

Just 20 to 30 years ago the scientists were telling us that the next ice age was comming, now they're telling us it's global warming! I'm not sying we should dump oil on our lawns and paint stripper in the local rivers, just that we should be careful but not crazy!

Anyway... sorry for the rant.

Shiny Side Up!
Bill
'72 442 "Inamorata"
www.fquick.com/ProTouring442