Unchewable, the D170

[kingcrunch]

I had to remove the strut rod and reposition the jack (that block of wood did not allow it to drop all the way), unbolted the upper shock mount and was then able to drop the LCA all the way.
I left the shock absorber installed as a safety measure until the spring was free of tension. I don't want one of these to bump into my chest or face...

I did some more mockup stuff with the suspension free to move around:







The LCA is about level at ride height.



I also recorded some measurements while i was at it. Without any further modification, the suspension has about 6.5" of travel (UCA touching to LCA touching).
With the adjusters all the way out (as seen from the center axis), i get about 1° of camber. Did not measure caster.

But i looked at camber gain:
About -3° (-4° net) at full compression and +0.5° (-0.5° net) at full droop. An inch below and above ride height, i could not observe camber change.

Expectedly, there is quite a lot of bump steer:
Over the 6.5" of travel i see a difference of .88" between full compression (front of wheel turns to center axis) and full droop (front of wheel turns away from center axis).

Inward bump starts about 1" compression from ride height and outward is present pretty much from ride height.


I also took a few measurements for the wheels i want to run... and i noticed that with the planned ride height i will have to modify the wheel housing to gain room for the wheel and tire.
I kinda orientate from the lower edge of the cab corner and fender and have the hub center about 1" above that... so i don't really have a ride height as in "frame to ground" yet.
All i know right now is that the hub center is about 14" off the ground (27" tire).


I can make these parts work but i will look into alternatives. Namely late model Ram suspension parts. I ordered a used UCA of a '05 Ram 1500 for test fitting.

Seeing these pics makes me think about aquiring a new cell phone... i really start to dislike the crappy camera my Blackberry has.

[kingcrunch]

Mockup tires:



My shoes are size 11, just for comparison.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Cool Project! I like the dare to be different!

[kingcrunch]

Looks like i need wider tires.



When you think you got a real wide tire, stick it on a truck. It will look flimsy and thin immediately.

Not too bad though:

[kingcrunch]

Oops, double post.

[kingcrunch]

Today i poked around with an angle finder to see where the Viper UCA and spindle dial in with no additional modifications.

They are iiin the ballpark not nowhere good.

We've got:

1 to -4° of camber (with all of the adjustment available)
10 to 14° of caster

The stock Viper alignment specs call for:

-1.5° camber
5.5° caster

Using the D150s upper control arm, i see the following:

+1 to +4° camber
4° caster

I can't not pull the D150s control arms further in, but i could recreate the upper control arm mounts so the Viper UCA sits further outboard.
I could also move the LCA towards the center line but with wheel choices limited to ET 30mm or 35mm (that's the wheel mounting surface moved outward from the centerline) that's a no no.

[kingcrunch]

I'll be looking into Ram SRT-10 suspension parts closer.
Right now, i see no good way to make the Viper parts work properly, because the UCA so narrow... it would have to sit further to the front of the truck and i can not move it there.
In return i can not move the LCA further back, because that would ultimately push the wheel from the centerline of the wheelhousing too much.

[kingcrunch]

Currently in the process of aquiring '04-05 parts... apparently these years had the special drop spindle Chrysler made for that truck.
It's not available from the dealer anymore and it's rarely seen on Ebay.


In fact i just bought a pair of brand new SRT 10 brake calipers.
The seller claims they are massive and he has to send them in two boxes because of the size...

Well, i thought the Viper stuff was massive, i am curious what's awaiting me here.


Good thing:
The seller is in the SRT 10 club of Germany and gave me a phone no to call for more SRT 10 parts.



Here's the game plan:

Problems i see:
- The SRT 10 spindle is about twice as high as the Viper spindle.
- the lower ball joint mounts with the bolt facing down
- the LCA can't be adapted to the D150s frame


Goodies:
- Front steer
- the lower ball joint does not mount from below
- massive wheel bearing
- massive 15" brakes
- designed for a heavy and fast vehicle
- the ball joint mount on the SRT 10 LCA is riveted to the LCA


You may already see what i am up to.

Actions:

Lower Control Arm:
- aquire a pair of Van LCAs
- cut off the ball joint mount of the Van LCAs (marked red)



- drill the rivets from the SRT10 LCA and remove the cast iron ball joint mount



- transfer the bolt pattern to the cut Van LCA
- drill and ream the holes
- make template for a reinforcement plate and have that cut from S355 steel
- bolt together with four 10.9 shoulder bolts
- weld the reinforcement plate into the Van / SRT 10 hybrid LCA
- then come up with an idea on how to mount the strut rod.


Why Van LCAs?
Because there is no holes on these that can interfere with the mounting holes of the SRT10s ball joint mount.
I hope that the bolt holes of the strut rod are close to the bolt holes of the ball joint mount so that i can make things fit somehow and bolt them up with two longer 10.9 bolts.

Second, the Van LCAs have deep spring pockets, allowing me to run a longer spring than stock so i can run a spring with a thinner wire and more coils or maybe a progressive spring for better suspension response characteristics.

The lower control arm will be pretty much parallel to the ground so i don't get weird camber changes around ride height.


Upper Control Arm:
- aquire a new pair of 05 or 06 (i tend to want 05 because they are cast aluminum compared to stamped steel in 06)
- make a stand that holds the spindle at the desired camber and caster (.0° and 5.75°)
- locate good spots for the inner UCA mounts
- make templates for upper UCA mounts, have them cut and bent from S355 steel
- drill and remove rivets holding original mounts and remove original mounts
- make reinforcement brackets to replace the original UCA mounts
- ream and bolt back together with shoulder bolts, weld to shock mount
- think about how to install new UCA mounts
- after an idea has been come up with, realize you're wrong and do again
- solve the problem and go for it

[2ndroundko]

So are you going to weld the end of the srt10 lca to the end of the van lca? Or is the van lca that much longer allowing the length need to just install the srt10 ball joint? Excellent fab work bay the way, I'm trying to increase my skill set now to be able to comprehend some of the more complex fab operations you are doing here. Good work!

[kingcrunch]

I'll keep it as simple as possible and bolt the cast piece to the van lca sandwiched between the original lca steel and a reinforcement plate.
There will be pics of that as well. I am waiting for the cast ends and van lcas (ordered new Moog parts).

I can play with track width a bit before i make the cuts.

I think going with the SRT-10 parts is a good idea. I doubt i will ever have something like "not enough brakes":



That is a 2 Euro coin, which is a hair over an inch in diameter. 2 inch piston diameter times four per caliper.

[kingcrunch]

I think i need to clarify my plan on the LCAs:

The cast iron piece is not integral with the ball joint! The ball joint is pressed into that cast iron/steel (i don't know yet) "eyelet".
Have a look at this video, it'll explain https://youtu.be/LsgZepTXuzg?t=865

On the '85 Vans, the LBJ is still pointing up, just like on the Rams of that era.
On the '05 Ram, the ball joint points down and i need to replicate that to be able to use the '05 SRT 10 spindle.

[kingcrunch]

Tearing apart the truck moves along nicely.
So far only one bolt was stuck (unfortunately in the leaf spring bushing, fought me, got cut off) and i am really happy with the condition of the frame and body.

The frame has been cleaned of all bolt ons, the rear axle is out, the fuel tank has been removed, all ready for fitting the rear suspension.

To be able to do that, i will have to do some measuring to find out where the spring crossmember will have to go. It's future position will create some problems i believe.



More small problems surface with using the Ram SRT10 parts:
While some internet sources say, a 19" wheel fits over the front brakes of an '05 SRT 10, others (and they are in the majority) say the smallest wheel usable is a 20".
So using Ram SRT10 parts will have an influence on a vital parameter of the project: 20" wheels instead of 19".

[bovey]

Hey! Loving the build. You had asked me about what I'm doing for a parking brake.

These arrived over the week-end and they are bad-ass AND they can be made to fit any width rotor.

Full details in my Targa Truck tread, entry 357




peace.

[kingcrunch]

Today's meal? More problems:

At ride height (and that is already higher than desired ride height) i have about 4.1" of uptravel.
Unfortunately, there is only room for a 5.3" spring (installed height) between the frame and the trailing arm.

I could start messing with 1 or 2" blocks and or 1" trailing arm mounts on the axle but that doesn't do much i think.


Anybody have measurements on how high their C10 lowering springs are installed in the truck?

[kingcrunch]

Marc,

that's a cool solution! Thanks for sharing it!
Due to the fact that i will use a complete D60 of a Ram SRT10 i get everything i want in a proven package, so that's solved for me for now until i hit other problems...

[Tincup]

Your parts are on the way.....

[kingcrunch]

Thank you Mike!

[kingcrunch]

Van LCAs came in, a SRT10 spindle and the ball joint mounts have arrived at the customs office... and it looks, it looks like it really - no real knowledge - like a 5" or 6" drop spring will work for my rear suspension.
Will update as soon as i get to it!

[kingcrunch]

Been searching high and low for suitable wheels today and this stuff really drives me mad as heck:

- the '05 Ram SRT10 came with 22" wheels from the factory. Way too big for my '85. 20s are the maximum.
- european manufacturers don't have have ANY wheels for the 5x5.5" bolt pattern, zero, nada, zilch.
- 20x9 factory Ram wheels for '05-10 look like someone barfed up a round chunk of aluminum, not going on my truck
- aftermarket is usually impossible to get any data for, such as wheel loads, etc. which are required by the technical surveillance over here...

But i think i have nailed down two options:

1.
https://factoryreproductions.com/
They make a 20x9, ET25 reproduction wheel of the SRT 10 type wheels.
Bit problematic in my eyes because there's no data available for them. Just a cast in max. wheel load. Some shops in Germany claim they are road legal.




2.
Definitely road legal but will need some makeover (read: media blast and black paint) and are harder to aquire (still nothing compared to '05 Ram SRT10 spindles, these are unobtainium):
2013 Ram 1500 OEM wheels
20x9 ET19

[kingcrunch]

So FINALLY i got some measurements on the installed height of 5" and 6" lowering springs on C10s.

The 5" springs are 7 1/2", the 6" springs are 6 3/4" installed height.
I got the measurements from Mark at ECE. Top notch (soon to be) customer service!

I will order a set of 6" springs and 1" lowering blocks that will be machined for ride height modifications.