Young Person Rant

[06RangerSTX]

Do not get me wrong; I may not be considered as one of the Young people (Age 33) that people seem to want to get involved with the pro-touring community. I read Pro-Touring articles that state time and time again that they are concerned about getting a younger audience into the sport. But a big BUT, I myself have dreamed to be involved in this community for over 18 years now and still could not even dream about being involved with this sport. I love this sport to no end and want to see it prevail! but Pro-Touring cars are not Hondas that have parts by the dozens ready for you to just bolt on. I mean most of the younger crowd on this site seem to be associated through a family member or have a job inside the industry. As for me, coming from the outside I can only window shop so to speak when it comes to a project worthy of this site.

When it comes to cost of being involved, I have not seen many vehicles on this site that is competing in the autocross events costing much less than say $20,000 US. I know that I sound like a crazed lunatic for talking like this, but I come here and get depressed and not really inspired by the beautiful projects on this site. But I seem to be drawn to these particular cars because I try to live and breath octane as much as I can with zero budget.

I guess what I am saying is; How do you do it? Do you not have any debt or do you have to remortgage the house to get things done?



I must apologize for this rant... I just feel like it may come to the point where I should just walk away and never think about it again...

I will get off my soap box now and leave you all alone... I just needed to get this out there and possibly get peoples thoughts of how crazy or stupid I am for even thinking this way...

[69_Sportsroof]

I'm 26 and just starting my build, but I bought a fox project when I was 18. Some people just come from money from their parents, plenty of my peers had much nicer cars. There's always someone with more cash than you. I have student loans, mortgage, and a car payment but my wife and I both work and budget all of our money. What ever you do don't float a credit card balance, the interest is insane and you are throwing money away. We also rarely eat out, keep an eye on food sales, and are generally frugal. I pack a lunch every day instead of eating out, depending where you eat daily lunch can add up to a couple hundred a month. I never go to Starbucks or any other overpriced money traps so I can spend money on what I enjoy.

The way I was able to afford the last project was just incrementally buying things. I couldn't afford buying everything at once but spread over several years I got it pretty nice. Most people I know don't realize how much little things add up. Go through your bank statements for a couple months and you'll probably be surprised how much money you could have.

I have a much better job now than I have ever had but I'm still working with a pretty tight budget when it comes to custom cars. So I'm in for the long haul

[Rod]

Do not get me wrong; I may not be considered as one of the Young people (Age 33) that people seem to want to get involved with the pro-touring community. I read Pro-Touring articles that state time and time again that they are concerned about getting a younger audience into the sport. But a big BUT, I myself have dreamed to be involved in this community for over 18 years now and still could not even dream about being involved with this sport. I love this sport to no end and want to see it prevail! but Pro-Touring cars are not Hondas that have parts by the dozens ready for you to just bolt on. I mean most of the younger crowd on this site seem to be associated through a family member or have a job inside the industry. As for me, coming from the outside I can only window shop so to speak when it comes to a project worthy of this site.

When it comes to cost of being involved, I have not seen many vehicles on this site that is competing in the autocross events costing much less than say $20,000 US. I know that I sound like a crazed lunatic for talking like this, but I come here and get depressed and not really inspired by the beautiful projects on this site. But I seem to be drawn to these particular cars because I try to live and breath octane as much as I can with zero budget.

I guess what I am saying is; How do you do it? Do you not have any debt or do you have to remortgage the house to get things done?

I must apologize for this rant... I just feel like it may come to the point where I should just walk away and never think about it again...

I will get off my soap box now and leave you all alone... I just needed to get this out there and possibly get peoples thoughts of how crazy or stupid I am for even thinking this way...

how is it done?

how bad do you want it???

I did it myself....if I didn't know how to do it I asked or found a place or someone that can teach me, welding course at a community college, at 17 I was sweeping floors and working in the yard sorting hoops at Boyds shop just so I could watch how guys built those cars..volunteered 3 hours a night for a month at a body shop to learn how to paint and do body work, while I still had a 50 plus hour a week job, I mopped the floors at an engine shop so the Hall of fame engine builder Bruno Gianoli would teach me how to build an engine correctly, even just 3 years ago I was learning how to do Tin work at one of the best shops in Northern California...I have meet and worked with some of the best in the industry this way........most days I pack a lunch, my new car is a 1985, I bought used parts on craigslist to get going, you make due with what you can afford and have fun building then racing the rest will come....there is nothing cooler than having David Pozzi showing you how to TiG weld a header back together, Dick Guldstrand sitting there explaining to me roll center movements on a camaro step by step or Bret Vokel handing you a pair of shocks saying try these or Kyle Tucker buying you breakfast before an event....some of the best cars on this forum are majority built by the owners such as Marks Hellfire or Marys "best car in the world" none of those cars are a one shot deal, Marys car like my own is a version many times updated from its starting point

[parsonsj]

I couldn't afford it when I was 33 either. I window-shopped, as you say. I read car magazines to keep my interest.

Finally, when I was 40, I got started on a 9 year project. Careful shopping, doing as much work myself as possible, etc. Hell, even today (I'm 55), I can't afford to travel around the country to a bunch of car events. I can only manage 4-5 a year.

It was worth it, though!

[Bob in St. Louis]

Sounds like you're a car guy and have been most of your life.
It's in your blood. Don't fight it. Find a way.

[CampbellshotrodsAZ]

To compete regularly to the level a lot of these guys are at, it's not an entry level sport. It does take money to get involved, it is racing after all, and not a cheap form of racing at that. However autocross is a lot cheaper than a true road race style car. And honestly, you don't have to have a perfect track car to have fun in the auto-x, I've seen someone in a 60's Imperial have a blast, while the body rolled enough to blow a tire by rubbing on a pinchweld.

I'm 29, and just now finally building my first real capable track car. I've always built cars, I have several under my belt. I grew up in my dad's friend's bodyshop and learned whatever I could. I took a course at a technical school during high school, and painted my first car at age 16. Honestly the reason I'm able to do these cars is I'll build one, enjoy it for a bit, and flip it (being a Senior Engineer definitely helps too). My last one, the 66 Mustang in my sig, allowed me to purchase my dream car 71 Firebird, full ridetech suspension, and a few other goodies. But prior to this, I just built cars to show and cruise. That's the more affordable part of the hobby. I did drag racing for awhile too, that's a good way to have fun for cheap.

I don't know if I actually said anything in my rambling above, but basically, don't shoot to compete with Stielow, the Tucker's, or the Pozzi's. Just start with a beater Fox body, or something a little less glamorous. Just get some track time in and learn if it's your thing first before you plan a $20k build. I kind of wish I had done so instead of being so picky about having "the right car".

[69_Sportsroof]

Oh yeah, forgot about autocross. Usually less than $40-50 a day and any car is fun. I've done a couple and they are a blast, if you want to hoon on a budget it doesn't get much easier. Typical speeds are around highway speed and you learn how the car reacts to input. Last one I did was in a very uneven parking lot and the bumps upset the chassis enough to warrant special attention. Good learning event

[Aficionado]

Dave Ramsey.

Eliminate all debt, period, and establish a sustainable lifestyle where you can stay out of debt and save for what you want. I drove a $1,300 retired police car for years while I saved for my dream car, which I paid for in cash, and have built with cash.

Second, get another job. And then another. Until recently I worked three, and have for years. Try to get one in the automotive or machine shop field, even if that means working for free in exchange for the education, which is a time honored way to develop a marketable skillset. The people you read about who are building these cars and are in the industry are often working in the field to accommodate a passion such as yours that they otherwise would never be able to afford. That's how many of us do it, and no reason you can't as well.

Get a plan and stay focused on the endgame. Oh, and get rid of Internet and TV at your house. It'll save money for your future car, and you'll be surprised how many hours of free time you'll have to work those three jobs.

[arcane73]

When I was 20 years younger I did the young and dumb approach of building cars on credit only to realize that I couldn't afford it later. Then I realized that in order to get what I wanted I had to make sure that everything else was taken care of first as far as finances went. So i went several years without a project and spent hours and hours planning out my 'ideal' ride. Fast forward to today: My wife and I are in a comfortable home, our drivers are paid for and well maintained, we go out to eat on Saturdays for lunch and we treat ourselves to little stuff every now and again (me: PC parts or tools, and her: Shoes!)

My mustang? It's paid for and sitting in the garage. It helps that I can drive it around in stock form. It's not fast....or pretty, but it's mine and I'm patient. I save $50 a week for parts. That keeps me from going overboard. It's not fast, but I'd rather do this right the first time. I've saved up chunks of cash (with help from tax season) and made big purchases and then set those items on the shelf in the garage. I do a lot of Craigslist browsing for deals. That's where I came across the rear end I just bought. To me, it's all about patience. I have to remind myself of that regularly. And my wife is on board with the whole thing which makes it that much better! lol

[SSLance]

All very good advice above. I also tried for years to "hot rod" my daily drivers and was never really successful at it. It's too hard to modify your daily driver and keep it on the road to take you to your job every day. Once I got to a position where my reliable daily driver was paid for...only then did I plan ahead and buy my fun car. I then planned out the changes to make to my car, a little bit at a time. It's been an evolving process ever since. Fix one thing, that showcases the next item that needs attention and so on. Don't try to do it all at once...and remember in order to be a good autocrosser, one needs to autocross regularly and work on the driver almost as much as the car.

[06RangerSTX]

I myself have done some stupid things when I was in my early age... I have actually had several chances to have a pretty good project car; starting with my uncle gave me a 1976 Chevy vega, 4-cylinder but that could have easily gone to the side but the body was in good condition but never did anything with it as it sat in a field rotting away and ended up at the junkyard. I also was given a 1982 V6 Camaro that could have been a fun car but gave it away due to selfishness. The best car that I used to actually own was a 1984 Monte Carlo SS, traded it for a Buick Regal due to my mother decided that I needed a more reliable car... I actually started a project about 12 years ago that was installing a 2.3L turbo into a 2nd generation Ford Ranger. I bought a Ranger and started taking it apart while the motor was being rebuilt. So $2k later the motor was done but not assembled and I never did finish the assembly either. so bare block that has been siting in a very damp location for about 6 years now...
In all of my idiocy I bought a 2001 Subaru Impreza 2.5Rs that I loved! the only problem is that I also owned a 2000 S-10 that both were financed while I was only making $11.50 and hour. So needless to say I ended up racking up all kinds of debt in the process to just make things work out. This was about 12 years ago and I am still paying for all of the debt that I accrued today. It also does not help that I have been laid off 4 times since 2007.

I have to state that I am married with a 2.5 year old daughter that loves cars! I am the sole provider for my family, but I have finally found a great job that also pays well at that!

I must say that I am very impressed on the quality of cars on this site! and to boot there seems to be a no real limit to what you actually build. I guess in the end is that I know many people that are somewhat same boat as I am. There just seems that there is little to no chance of ever really being able to build something that would be considered Pro-Touring.

[korb]

I think you need to figure out a direction, I see it as you do, I classified, Pro Tour, my definition is word Pro, these guys have gotten to the point were the have been in it long enough, seen track days,&may have done driving schools, and may have sponcers backing them, and would be able to hit as many events as possible, in short our mentors. Then theres the next, weekend warriors, they have robbed, pillaged, gave up allot to have a car, that has abilities to autocross, &be driven when able. Im one of these guys, 69 Firebird, just starting in SCCA, Cam T, thats Classic American Muscle, Traditional. this allows me to stay within my budget, because rules for the class.I feel for you, do more research, there are cars that are extremely competitive, stock, 3rd gen camaros, fox bodys, my sons 05mustang with a 6 cyl, stock has done really well at autocross, we pd 2 grand for it and it has 175 thousand miles on it.keep at it bud,& good luck!!!!

[TheJDMan]

Basically what everyone is saying is that if you want something bad enough you will do what is necessary to acheve it. This is not a pro-touring specific situation, it applies to everything you do in life. The guys above have figured out what they wanted then figured out what they needed to do and have worked hard to get where they are over time and I have a great deal of respect for them. To be honest it sounds like you have had several opportunities and simply not followed through. At 33 you should be old enough to know this by now. We all know how much the car hobby costs which is why you need to set a goal for yourself then develop a plan to achieve that goal. It will not happen overnight or next month but over time, if you stick to your plan, the goal will eventually be realized.

[srh3trinity]

I think there are ways to have fun on a budget. I see the fourth gen ls1 cars going for cheap now. You could pick up a ragged out one for 5k, peruse the classifieds on ls1tech for motor and suspension bolt ons and drive it until something gives up. Then beef that up and repeat. For 10k, you could probably have more car than a first or second gen with aftermarket suspension and a high hp lsx that cost 100k. That gets you off the bench and into the game. I am 35 and I am going through a longer term medium priced build and you get a whole different subset of frustration with a build like this. Timeframe, paint and body jail and waiting on wheels or parts, this part doesn't "bolt up" like it should, etc. I ask myself regularly why I didn't just buy a used c5 or c6 or a fifth gen camaro and get to driving.

[T_Raven]

There are a lot of high dollar builds but that doesn't have to be the case. If someone wants to start with a restored 69 Camaro and modify it, then yeah, it's gonna be an expensive project.

I've had quite a few project cars that were free or close to it, to get the car itself at least. A lot of parts can be had fairly cheap, and your own labor is free.

I also have a Civic. Keeping a D15 is like having a carbureted small block. Both can be cheap but aren't the best set up or the popular swap. Say you want that Vtec B18 swap. You're gonna spend the same amount a muscle car guy would for a 6.0/4L80e pull out. A K series swap would be more comparable to a LS1/t56

There are a lot of cheap parts out there for both a Civic or muscle car, but you get what you pay for. Getting good suspension and brake parts for either car, costs similar money.

I'm building a 69 Firebird with a 6.0/t56. I have $3200 into the body and powertrain, 4th gen seats, dash, and brakes left from a parts car. By the time I paint it, buy wheels and tires, and the rest of the interior, I think I can have it drivable for around $10k and upgrade suspension as I go along.

Compare that to my awd, K series hatchback Civic project and you'd easily have $10k into that swap if you just went out and bought a nice Civic and paid regular wrecking yard prices for the power train, and regular prices for all the swap parts. And that would still be with cheap wheels and stock suspension and brakes.

Long story short, pro-touring muscle cars are more expensive than a clapped out Civic full of ebay parts, but you can still find deals on cars, and wheel and deal to get cheap parts.

[Dunnum1]

I'm 33 also I started tinkering in my off time with desert trucks borrowed tools and saved from work while in college. when I started my career I learned to budget and slowly started building mt first restomod out of a t code mustang then saved to buy my next car and the next after that. I didn't go out with my buddies. my wife and I found an affordable place that left cash to put towards what we wanted to keep instead of blowing it on crap. When I fell in love with the smell of race gas I didn't get depressed that I couldn't afford it I found a way to play I worked hard and feel like if you want to have the nicest/fastest/coolest car you have to work for it. Some people on here may hate me for saying that I don't want to see everyone driving a fully built pro touring car. I like knowing that the guys that have something special worked as hard as I did. I know I don't have the skills to do MOST of the work on these cars so I found a way to afford to have an expert do those things. Don't get me wrong I hope you find a way to get what you want and build a car that inspires me but it is an expensive life and I'm sure 99% of the guys who's cars make you depressed worked their asses off to be able to afford them. They made sacrifices and hard decisions and found a way to either learn how to build it or have some one do it their way.

[71maroesteban]

I feel like pro touring will never be a younger persons game. Because if you don't own something pre 75 it's not "pro touring" I'm building a 71 Camaro and parts are so expensive that I bought c6 vette so I can get to driving instead of just waiting for my car to be done and honestly I don't think any pro touring car can match the level of performance the C6 I bought has for 20k

[CampbellshotrodsAZ]

I see you mentioned that you're married with a young child, and a sole provider. That's unfortunately one of tradeoffs in life, at this point the family should be the number one priority, and not so much the race car. I guess that's why most people don't get around to building these cars until they're in their 40's or 50's, they have to raise a family first. It's definitely a tough balancing act, and if anything, picking up a cheap 4th Camaro or C4 Corvette might be the best way to have some fun without breaking the bank. Spending $20k on an old car would be difficult, nor advisable IMO.

Myself, being a 29 yr old senior level Engineer, and single with no family, translates into... race car! But life is about balance. If something happened (hell froze over) and I found myself raising a new family, I'd probably cut down my projects to an even half dozen, or something reasonably sane.

[Nicks67GTO]

I'm 32. I'm married, 2 kids. Earned every dime iv'e ever made. Here's my view on it.

1- have a cool easy going wife. If this isn't the case then forget it. If your wife is a battle axe about money then just forget about it, you'll be much happier.

2- listen to Dave Ramsey like was mentioned above. I'm not going to go into my personal details but I will just say that under no circumstances will I go into debt over my project. Never. It would be sitting before that happened. Iv'e heard of guys cashing 401K's, living credit card to credit card to get it done and to me that is absolutely foolish. The key to being able to play is to have a good job, live smaller than socioty tells you you should, eliminate your debt load, save big and be patient.

3- find something you like that is AFORDABLE on your income. I was fortunate enough to have a poorly painted 67 GTO shell laying around that I cut a deal for. Had I not had that I would have looked for a lesser desirable A body musclecar to start with. You don't have to have an SS chevelle, GTO, 442, W31, GSX or something like that. You could buy a 64 Buick special like my buddy just did. He bought it running and driving for $6K and just enjoys it as is, for the time being, while he saves for upgrade projects. Is it a super desirable body? Nope, but its got that 64-67 A body look, its really unique and VERY cool. Look for a nice running Tempest, Lemans, Cutlass, Skylark, F85 etc. With that said.....

4- Buy used parts to get your project running and usable asap. Dont blow your whole wad on one really expensive thing. I'm running an $800 dollar Pontiac 455 I found a deal on craigslist 6 hours away from me, a 20 year old Richmond 5 speed I had from another project, stock driveshaft, used seats, headers, flywheel, scattershield, clutch, rear discs, truetrac unit, rear gears and so on and so forth. All used. All found on ebay, Performance years, Craigslist, or here. I'm upgrading as I go and my project has been going since 09'-10' I don't have $6K to drop on 6P Baer brakes so I got Kore3 fronts and LS1 rears that are probably in all reality just as good for my use but less bling factor. I don't have $5K for forged wheels so I got nice cast wheels. My old 1:1 Richmond 5 speed tranny works fine and one could be had for $1000 if you could find one used, as opposed to a latest and greatest LGT700 that is close to $4K. I'm running a rebuilt Quadrajet that iv'e got all of $100 bucks in, as opposed to the latest/greatest EFI setup. I'm running a used RobbMc fuel system I got on Performance years.

My point is you don't have to have a $150K car thought it would be easy to end up there if you went bananas and had to have the best of the best. You could have a $6K car that runs and drives that you get to plan projects on and upgrade over time. With all that said, IMO If its stressing your family, then forget it and just enjoy going to shows and whatnot until you are ready to get at it responsibly.

[NJSPEEDER]

In reality, most people that build cars themselves had them for years before they were the beasts you see featured in magazines, on TV shows, and getting the glory on websites. The costs are a very real restriction for most of us and it boils down to the same simple concepts that should apply to any hobby, only spend what you can afford when you have it.

For 99% of us this means the car we want all set up perfectly the way we want it isn't going to happen overnite and really that doesn't matter. The idea is to get out there and enjoy yourself. Meet the people, check out the cars, try to snag some ride alongs, if your car is up and running get out and enjoy it whether there is an event going on or not. Fun is the point, having a $100k+ car doesn't make it happen and having a $500 one paycheck hero doesn't prevent it, its about great people and fun cars. Go enjoy.