ABS and Traction Control

[70 LS1]

Has anyone adapted ABS and/ or Traction Control to their car? I am researching the feasability of adapting a C5 style ABS/TracCon/Active Handling to my car and would appreciate any insight/ feedback.

thanks

[skeevay]

I am curious about the feasability too. I am using the brake system off my 4th gen Camaro donor car and have thought about using the antilock portion of it also. I haven't done much research yet.

[TitoJones]

On my own car, project 50/50 we are doing exactly that. Of course I have the entire C5 corvette under my Camaro, so it is worlds easier to adapt. We also have our new AFX spindle that uses a C5 hub assembly with wheel speed sensors, so it certainly a possibilty. I'll have Chicane step in here as we are doing this on his 67 Camaro.
Tyler

[Ralph LoGrasso]

I'm not sure how much good the stock 4th gen Traction Control or even the C5 would do. Everytime I get in my 4th gen SS before I even put my seatbelt on, I'm sure to turn the ASR (traction control) off. It's a terrible system, very intrusive. It allows for NO wheelsping whatsoever, and when the ASR kicks on, you're sure to know it. It feels sort of like ABS, but much worse where the pedal is kicked up. All the fastest 1/4 times with 4th gen f-bods, C5s and Z06s have been made with the traction control off. Just MHO. Note: I haven't driven a C5 with the traction control on, so my only experience is with the 4th gen system, the C5 may be better.

However, there's been talk on here of some real nice aftermarket systems where you can dial in certain parameters such as wheel spin.

[worldbob]

I've been looking into traction control also. This is the system I've been looking at. http://www.racelogic.co.uk/?show=Traction_ControlThere's a shop in Oregon that sells it in the US. http://www.matrixintegrated.cc/about_1.php

Still gathering as much info as I can???

[70 LS1]

I would agree that the stock system is a bit intrusive. What really appeals to me is the C5 Active Handling. It is part of the traction control and abs and compensates for lateral slip or sliding.

[chicane67]

ABS is a piece of cake..... especially if you are using an LSx engine package.

TCS on the other hand, depends on what design year you are considering, very much Ralphs point I believe. The C5 and C6 systems are a little less intrusive, but still tend to kick you off control. None the less, for the freaks building twin squirreled (or otherwise) big hp engine packages.... TCS isnt such a bad thing. My 67 with its last power plant was (sometimes) a pain when driven in inclimate weather or hot conditions. The race logic unit would be another easy add on to an LSx engine package..... not bad for $1200.

As for the active handling, unless you are taking an exsisting system and retofitting into your current chassis, you are going to need (or you yourself need to be) an electronic engineer and specialize in voltage and current control devices. Even if you take an exsisting system, you will still need to 'tune' the system to the motion ratios and spring rates of the chassis you have at hand. Which the chassis has to have ABS just to pull this off anyway.... so there is another $1800 to 2000..... 3200+ total.

Or you can have both, from a factory F or Y body.... its about 1800 to 2000 total.

[70 LS1]

Chicane: Thanks for the input. My plan was to pull the entire system from a 2001 corvette. This includes wheel speed sensors, brake pressure modulator valve, PCM, body control module, yaw rate sensor, steering sensor and lateral accelerometer.

My thinking was as long as the weight and weight distribution of my car was the same as a C5 the system should work without reprogramming anything. Is that reasonable thinking or am I way off on this?

I've been looking at the racelogic setup this evening and really like it. The only thing is it doesn't have ABS as a part of it. So for $1200 I get traction control only.

[chicane67]

Just as a point of reference, try and get the parts off of a "Z51" Y-body. The spring rates, motion ratio and weight of the chassis will be much closer to that of your 70..... because in reality, your 70 isnt going to be close to what a 97> Y-body weights..... unless you have done some major surgery.

Another thing to ponder. The wheel speed sensors. I believe that is going to be your biggest challenge. I am quite intimate with the Y-body, of all years, and getting an exciter and reluctor to work at the proper frequencies is going to propagate some grey matter.



The best way to get 50% of it done would be to fab a spindle to house a C5 wheel bearing/sensor..... the rear on the other hand could be done with some press on reluctor (like a starter ring gear on a flywheel) over the end of the stub shafts (tack weld) and then a simple bracket for the exciter sensor.....

I might also add that if your taking the body off of the chassis, you need to get Guldstrands "toe adjust" kit. In fact, I hope you are familiar with the Guldstrand catalog for the early Y-body..... to this day, it is still the shiznit book of must haves.

My last project was a 69 L88, Lake Pipe car that I did the majority with Guldstrand suspension components, sprinkled with Global West del-a-lum bushings and a T56 trans. I used the heimed steering kit, the Toe adjuster kit (which makes alignments a dream), the rear camber rod kit and his heim jointed swaybar links. Man, that chassis..... what a dream to drive..........

[70 LS1]

So how much does a C5 weigh and what was their weight distribution like?

The C5 uses a wheel speed sensor consisting of a reluctor wheel surrounded by a coil. I am not familiar with this type. The ones I have seen in the past were all magnetic pickups that sent a signal that varied in frequency to the computer. The higher the frequency of pulses the fast the wheel is moving. I had a source tell me that the C5 system doesn't measure frequency, but instead increases voltage as speed increases? This really doesn't make sense to me since the reluctor wheel still has teeth on it. I could easily replicate the magnetic pickup type, but the other not so sure. I don't really want to use the C5 hubs as I don't even know how I would get the rear to work.


Thanks again Chicane.

[chicane67]

Coupe weights in at 3173 with a dist of 51/49.

The wheel speed sensors provide multiple system inputs for not only ABS, TCS, cruise, stability systems, tire inflation monitors and even in cooperation with engine crank and cam sensors to feed their respective computers for individual operation.

Case in point for an input that many dont think about, General Motors Corp uses a system that will compare the speed of wheels on the same axle and determine if a tire has insufficient air pressure. This is not the same system used in earlier years to actually measure tire pressure using a monitor ring mounted in the tire. This system would operate by observing a faster wheel speed, which would indicate low tire pressure. This system would also look at other inputs, such as a steering wheel angle sensor, before determining a low tire pressure situation. So I guess this is also a viable item to use EMOB tire packages too.... say good bye to your spare tire fellow PTer's.

The new systems use a variable reluctance wheel speed sensor, which is basically a permanent magnet with wire wrapped around it. It is usually a simple circuit of only two wires where in most cases polarity is not important. But the physics behind the operation is basically magnetic induction. A toothed ring on the wheel passes by the speed sensor and disrupts this magnetic field. The disruption in the field causes the wheel speed sensor to produce a sinusoidal (AC) voltage signal. The frequency and amplitude of the AC voltage signal are proportional to the speed of the wheel. The amplitude of the wheel speed signal is also directly related to the distance between the wheel speed sensor coil and the toothed ring. The distance is referred to as the air gap. This gap is critical to ensure AC output at lower speeds.

It is important to remember that air gap can change on a vehicle with loose wheel bearings or worn parts. Improper air gap can cause what is called sensor dropout. This can occur when the sensor will not produce output at lower speeds. Too large of an air gap was the problem and that is what I see as being the challenge for the rear wheels.... it would come down to packaging.

As for the rear arms, there are aftermarket arms that you could adapt the C5 rear wheel bearing unit as well. The real difference, is that it is a three bolt flange vice a four. But the stub axles and shafts would be an easy adaptation to the new bearing hub.

Well, something to consider I guess..........

[70 LS1]

The C5's speed sensors have a toothed wheel with a coil in the shape of the ring surrounding it. I would assume this is the PMG type that you refer to? So the voltage and frequency are both needed for the ABS/Traction Control system to accurately monitor speed?

I have a C5 service manual coming to me and I hope it describes the required signals.