Ride quality - shocks

[andrewb70]

No. They're 18x8 and 18x9 Boyds PT-09s. I've just sent an email off to them.

I do have C6 ZO6 brakes though, which are not light...

The reason I ask is because your car and mine are very similar (suspension and brake components). I have QA1 coilovers on the front with 550lb/in springs and my ride is definitely not jarring or "hammer" like. It is definitely firm, but my GF never complains, so that tells me the ride is not punishing. My shocks are set fairly firm.

The reason I ask about the wheel weight is that the unsprung wheel and tire weight make a big difference not only in handling, but also in the ride quality. I used to have a 1995 Miata and those cars are especially sensitive to unsprung weight. It had a set of heavy cast 16x7 wheels on it and Kony coilovers. The ride was very harsh. I always thought that it was because of the Konis. Then I installed the stock wheels and new stock size tires on it, and the handling AND the ride quality improved tremendously.

The wheels on my GTO are about 20-21 pounds in the front.



Andrew

[Nicks67GTO]

I'm going to be really forward and cut to the chase here so forgive me....

Is it really possible to have a shock that rides super smooth on the street and can get turned up to outperform the competition on the track? It seems like too much win. Like its too good to be true. Is ridetech suggesting that the HQ's will ride better on the street and do just as well on the track as the SA Varishocks?

[Carl @ Chassisworks]

Colin,
Experience tells us that the simplest solution is usually the best solution. With a low profile tire, the air pressure can make a HUGE difference so I would play around with that a bit. Does your car have a full, sound deadened interior or is it a stripped down streetfigher? Noise plays a huge part in our perception of ‘ride quality’ as well.

Do you have cut stock style coil-springs on the car to get it lower? If not, what springs do you have? I ask because you mentioned ‘wallowing’ which can mean many things to different people. To me it means your spring is too soft but other indicators, such as not hitting the bump stops and having a harsh ride, lead me toward the spring being too stiff.

Here’s an editorial that Chris Alston wrote a while back. CLICK HERE. It references both handling and straight line applications. Some good info, for instance “If your car rides like crap, it’s got the wrong spring in it! That’s why so many street machines ride like skateboards.” Also, THIS ARTICLE about coilover conversions has a lot of good tech info.

It’s not hitting the bump stops. As a matter of fact this car is raised way up from the stock SC&C settings.

If you’re not at the settings SC&C designated, it’s possible you’re topping out the shock. This can contribute to poor ride quality. Call Mark and go over your setup. He knows how to tune your configuration better than anyone else. If you’re running it different that he designed for you, then that’s issue #1.

What am I feeling when I hit a bump in the road? Is it too much compression, or not enough rebound? I would think you would want less stiff compression to absorb the bump.

Rebound typically has the largest effect on what we experience as 'ride quality.' The springs are pushing the wheel down into the ground and the car up into the air. They do most of the work when it comes to compression damping, providing they are the proper rate for your application. From there, the rebound keeps it from feeling ‘springy.’

As the compression doesn't really change with the Varishock QA1's adjustment, I don't see how adjusting that shock affects ride quality at all, with the exception of preventing "packing" over a series of bumps.

Actually, our compression resistance force changes significantly throughout the dampening range so I’m not sure if you’re referring to a QA1 or a VariShock. You don’t have to worry about ‘packing’ on these shocks. These are street cars and are not valved stiff enough for that to be an issue.

Incidentally, the shock dyno numbers you posted are not really comparable. The VariShock numbers in your original post are from a coil over body. The valving is slightly different for the 'bolt-in' shocks. Also, the valving is different between set valve, 1, 2, & 4 way adjustable as well. I don’t have a smooth body graph to share so we’ll just run with what you posted as it’s not drastically different. I’m pretty sure the ridetech info is also for a coilover as they don’t currently offer an HQ smooth body/adjustable ‘bolt-in’ style shock for your car. Herb is running a coilover body in his car. You could put those in, or you could spend an extra $48 to get a double adjustable VariShock. The Viking is a DA shock of unknown configuration.

For example, at 12 in/sec shaft speed (which I think is appropriate for a quick transition like a rut in the road):
The Varishocks are at 220lbs compression / 575lbs rebound full firm and 95lbs compression / 135lbs rebound on full soft.
The Ridetechs are at 155lbs compression / 640lbs rebound full firm and 125lbs compression / 340lbs rebound at full soft.
The Vikings are at 320lbs compression / 450lbs rebound full firm and 75lbs compression / 100lbs rebound at full soft.

That said, here's what I see when I look at the numbers you provided. The curve is important too, but this will do for now.
- VariShock - Primarily rebound dampening is controlled by the knob. Compression dampening follows slightly behind rebound damping.
- ridetech - Rebound dampening has narrowest range listed, has the most rebound damping at full soft and full stiff. Compression damping stays relatively static.
- Viking - DA Shock, can be tuned for softest rebound and stiffest compression of those listed. Has middle of the road rebound range. (Unless you compare it to the VariShock DA which can )

For reference, I have attached a copy of the VariShock coilover single and double adjustable coilover dyno graphs.

VariShockQ1_dyno.pdf VariShockQ2_dyno.pdf

[Yelcamino]

I’m pretty sure the ridetech info is also for a coilover as they don’t currently offer an HQ smooth body/adjustable ‘bolt-in’ style shock for your car. Herb is running a coilover body in his car.

Carl, you are correct, I have the coil-over body in my car. However, we do offer a bolt in smooth body rebound adjustable shock, known as the HQ. Stock should start arriving in September. As soon as we get them in, I'll do some dyno runs and post up graphs.

[CFster]

Colin,
Experience tells us that the simplest solution is usually the best solution. With a low profile tire, the air pressure can make a HUGE difference so I would play around with that a bit. Does your car have a full, sound deadened interior or is it a stripped down streetfigher? Noise plays a huge part in our perception of ‘ride quality’ as well.

Do you have cut stock style coil-springs on the car to get it lower? If not, what springs do you have? I ask because you mentioned ‘wallowing’ which can mean many things to different people. To me it means your spring is too soft but other indicators, such as not hitting the bump stops and having a harsh ride, lead me toward the spring being too stiff.

Here’s an editorial that Chris Alston wrote a while back. CLICK HERE. It references both handling and straight line applications. Some good info, for instance “If your car rides like crap, it’s got the wrong spring in it! That’s why so many street machines ride like skateboards.” Also, THIS ARTICLE about coilover conversions has a lot of good tech info.


If you’re not at the settings SC&C designated, it’s possible you’re topping out the shock. This can contribute to poor ride quality. Call Mark and go over your setup. He knows how to tune your configuration better than anyone else. If you’re running it different that he designed for you, then that’s issue #1.


Rebound typically has the largest effect on what we experience as 'ride quality.' The springs are pushing the wheel down into the ground and the car up into the air. They do most of the work when it comes to compression damping, providing they are the proper rate for your application. From there, the rebound keeps it from feeling ‘springy.’


Actually, our compression resistance force changes significantly throughout the dampening range so I’m not sure if you’re referring to a QA1 or a VariShock. You don’t have to worry about ‘packing’ on these shocks. These are street cars and are not valved stiff enough for that to be an issue.

Incidentally, the shock dyno numbers you posted are not really comparable. The VariShock numbers in your original post are from a coil over body. The valving is slightly different for the 'bolt-in' shocks. Also, the valving is different between set valve, 1, 2, & 4 way adjustable as well. I don’t have a smooth body graph to share so we’ll just run with what you posted as it’s not drastically different. I’m pretty sure the ridetech info is also for a coilover as they don’t currently offer an HQ smooth body/adjustable ‘bolt-in’ style shock for your car. Herb is running a coilover body in his car. You could put those in, or you could spend an extra $48 to get a double adjustable VariShock. The Viking is a DA shock of unknown configuration.



That said, here's what I see when I look at the numbers you provided. The curve is important too, but this will do for now.
- VariShock - Primarily rebound dampening is controlled by the knob. Compression dampening follows slightly behind rebound damping.
- ridetech - Rebound dampening has narrowest range listed, has the most rebound damping at full soft and full stiff. Compression damping stays relatively static.
- Viking - DA Shock, can be tuned for softest rebound and stiffest compression of those listed. Has middle of the road rebound range. (Unless you compare it to the VariShock DA which can )

For reference, I have attached a copy of the VariShock coilover single and double adjustable coilover dyno graphs.

VariShockQ1_dyno.pdf VariShockQ2_dyno.pdf

Carl,

I'm running the SPC springs that Mark sold me with my AFX kit. They haven't been altered in any way. I'm also running spacers that he gave me, so I'm sure if there were any travel issues he would have made me aware of it.

The car is dynomatted on the floor and trunk. Full interior.

What I mean by wallowing is if I turn my shocks down to zero then yes it will bottom out and is generally scary during weight transfer and going around corners.

What I find interesting about the dyno charts you posted is the rebound range is virtually the same but the compression force is significantly higher on the Q2s. I'm not sure how the Q2s would help in my situation as I'm experiencing more of a harsh compression event.

[Carl @ Chassisworks]

Carl,
What I find interesting about the dyno charts you posted is the rebound range is virtually the same but the compression force is significantly higher on the Q2s. I'm not sure how the Q2s would help in my situation as I'm experiencing more of a harsh compression event.

Yes, the QS2 has a lot more available compression dampening. That doesn't mean you have to use all of it. The benefit of the double adjustable is that you can independently control the restistance force. The compression/bump is not tied to the extension/rebound. The DA shock was designed with more available compression because of this. It would be extremely unlikely that anyone would run both knobs a full 16 clicks tight.

Likewise, running a QS2 full soft on both paths would cause the car to 'wallow' as the valving is essentially turned off. You would basically be running on just the springs. What you are descibing to me sounds like a spring rate issue but could be any number of issues.

In the end, if you're having ride quality issues you need to talk to the guy who configured your package. You have our shock, but not springs, spindles, or a-arms that we supply; all of which matters in the overall setup. Mark Savitske is one of our most intelligent dealers, has written an excellent book on suspension tuning, and is the best person qualified to discuss his setup.

When you made your purchase, SC&C gave you very specific settings to use, along with specific ride height requirements. Go back to the original settings and set-up and start logging data about what setting you used and how the car responds, etc. We can then talk about how to make adjustments to create the ride and performance you want.

[SSLance]

I'm going to be really forward and cut to the chase here so forgive me....

Is it really possible to have a shock that rides super smooth on the street and can get turned up to outperform the competition on the track? It seems like too much win. Like its too good to be true.

It is absolutely true... Last October I installed a set of ridetech TQ Triple Adjustable shocks on my car and tuned them for the last autocross event of the year. I was helped though the tuning process for handling by Ron Sutton and we ended up with what I would call a very aggressive setup that was frankly flat out uncomfortable to drive on the street, but handled the autocross course crazy good. The compression and rebound settings would let the car fully compress on the front entering a corner and hold it there through mid turn and then let the weight transfer to the rear for corner exit traction. I took an autocross veteran that had never ridden in my car on a run that day and he made the comment that "it just feels like an autocross car". I finished 31st out of 124 cars that day driving a completely new setup to me on just 4 runs...not too bad for an old Monte Carlo competing against, Miatas, Minis, Beemers, and other autocross specific types of cars.

After the event I started driving the car on the street and adjusting the compression and rebound settings per ridetech's instruction sheet. I stopped 3 or 4 times during one 15 mile trip to town to adjust the very easy to reach knobs on all 4 shocks and by the time I got to town I had a compliant yet still firm ride that actually had a better feel than Edelbrock IAS shocks I took off of the car. Over the next few days I tweaked on it a bit further and I now have them set where I like them for a near perfect street ride. It is compliant over bumps small and large, yet at the same time doesn't wallow and still corners better than it ever has before. The wife acceptance factor has been great as well. She was skeptical while I was doing all of the suspension work that she wouldn't enjoy riding in the car after but on her first ride she commented that "it feels better than it did before".

I can't comment on the other brands of shocks or even the other Ridetech shocks as I have no experience with them, but I can say for a fact that with the Ridetech Triple Adjustable TQs...yes you can have the best of both worlds and easily adjust between the two of them.

I do believe that the whole suspension package plays a part in this. Having the correct spring rates, non-binding bushings, proper travel to keep from topping or bottoming out the shocks and staying off of the bump stops, and lastly good quality tires with proper air pressures in them all contribute to a good ride on the street, but you need a good shock to be the brains of all of the rest of that for it to really work.

[Nicks67GTO]

It is absolutely true... Last October I installed a set of ridetech TQ Triple Adjustable shocks on my car and tuned them for the last autocross event of the year. I was helped though the tuning process for handling by Ron Sutton and we ended up with what I would call a very aggressive setup that was frankly flat out uncomfortable to drive on the street, but handled the autocross course crazy good. The compression and rebound settings would let the car fully compress on the front entering a corner and hold it there through mid turn and then let the weight transfer to the rear for corner exit traction. I took an autocross veteran that had never ridden in my car on a run that day and he made the comment that "it just feels like an autocross car". I finished 31st out of 124 cars that day driving a completely new setup to me on just 4 runs...not too bad for an old Monte Carlo competing against, Miatas, Minis, Beemers, and other autocross specific types of cars.

After the event I started driving the car on the street and adjusting the compression and rebound settings per ridetech's instruction sheet. I stopped 3 or 4 times during one 15 mile trip to town to adjust the very easy to reach knobs on all 4 shocks and by the time I got to town I had a compliant yet still firm ride that actually had a better feel than Edelbrock IAS shocks I took off of the car. Over the next few days I tweaked on it a bit further and I now have them set where I like them for a near perfect street ride. It is compliant over bumps small and large, yet at the same time doesn't wallow and still corners better than it ever has before. The wife acceptance factor has been great as well. She was skeptical while I was doing all of the suspension work that she wouldn't enjoy riding in the car after but on her first ride she commented that "it feels better than it did before".

I can't comment on the other brands of shocks or even the other Ridetech shocks as I have no experience with them, but I can say for a fact that with the Ridetech Triple Adjustable TQs...yes you can have the best of both worlds and easily adjust between the two of them.

I do believe that the whole suspension package plays a part in this. Having the correct spring rates, non-binding bushings, proper travel to keep from topping or bottoming out the shocks and staying off of the bump stops, and lastly good quality tires with proper air pressures in them all contribute to a good ride on the street, but you need a good shock to be the brains of all of the rest of that for it to really work.

Nice! I think the TQ's are only sold as a coilover or shockwave right? I wonder if there's any plan for a smooth body triple adjustable shock?