If you had to improve a stock Nova/Camaro subframe....

[Hotwhilz]

Hi guys as a fewof you know I wrecked fairly bad my Nova, the front subframe got bent ans studying wether I fab my own or go with another used stock subframe. Beside the Gulstrand mod, what else can be done to improve the front geometry and suspension and still retain the stock a arms (unless something cheap comes at me).
My Budget is quite limited as I have to buy a lot of sheet metal and grille, hood,and a paint job. As far as fabbing I have access to anything I'll need, I can weld, think, and a Brother in law can solidworks pretty much anything.

Sorry if it has been covered before, but any help would be appreciated.

Regards

[bret]

Tru turn...Best bang for the buck...http://www.ridetech.com/store/tru-turn/

* taller spindles to inprove camber gain
* steering arms and steering linkage to correct bumpsteer and ackerman
* clearance for up to a 10" wheel and a 275mm tire


If you dont want that wide of wheel, and dont want to spend that amount of money...the spindles are only $350 and will improve the camber gain immensely. You can still run a 245mm tire and an 8" wheel. The bumpsteer is not corrected but still acceptable for all but hardcore corner turners.

[Hotwhilz]

Thanks Bret, I wish I can afford that much right now!
I was more into 2x3 rails and relocate the a arms to proper locations compare to the old stock sub.
And going the rack and pinion route also

[Rhino]

On a tight budet I'd stick with a stock sub. It'll be cheaper (and much simpler) in the long run when comparing the costs to fab your own. Tall ball joints can help with your camber curve and tubular UCA's will allow you more caster.

[coolwelder62]

The nice thing about Ride Tech is you can buy it a pc.at a time.My visit to Ride Tech's World Headquarter's was amazing.They control arms and suspension part stack clear to the ceiling.They are producing super high qualtiy part's that work.Scott Mock (Ride Tech Dealer).

[neki67]

Tall UBJ's and Tall outer tie rod ends, it will help camber curve and bumpsteer > SC and C = Marcus = great support.

http://scandc.com/new/node/674

Oh and while you're at it, buy the muscle car suspension bible by Marcus: http://www.amazon.com/Make-Your-Musc...7722973&sr=8-1

[Hotwhilz]

Tall UBJ's and Tall outer tie rod ends, it will help camber curve and bumpsteer > SC and C = Marcus = great support.

http://scandc.com/new/node/674

Oh and while you're at it, buy the muscle car suspension bible by Marcus: http://www.amazon.com/Make-Your-Musc...7722973&sr=8-1

Thanks rené, just baught this book! Will look in to the UBJ and tie rod, I was going for a home made sub to replace the bent one I have and also fix the poor stock geometry, but it seems a bit easier to "just buy" parts to improve!
Will see where this takes me.
Thanks again!

Ben

[another69]

I agree- stick with the stock subframe for a budget build. You can (carefully) fully weld the seams and clean it up a bit. I would also recommend reinforcement of the shock mounts, because they will flex with stiffer shocks. You can also reinforce the stock lower arms and put in Delrin bushings. I would AVOID poly bushings in the suspension at all costs. I was very happy with tall ball joints and new upper arms from SC&C, they made a huge difference, but you can't do the Guldstrand and tall ball joints, so pick one.

[Hotwhilz]

I already have the pro comp tubular a arms, going for the Guldstrand to keep the cost down, i have all the tools and the engine is about out! Probably wont cut the mounts just redrill, test and tune and if I don't like, wich I think I will according to what I could read about the benefits.
Probably going for a rack and pinion out of the JY of a european car, to get a quicker steering and probably loose a few pounds and bye Bye the loosy feel of my old box!

Will keep you posted, I'm in the engine right, I had to drive a couple miles without water ( don't ask me why :( ) want to check things out while the front end off

Should be a better car once overhauled again!
Will keep you posted

Ben

[Rhino]

I already have the pro comp tubular a arms, going for the Guldstrand to keep the cost down, i have all the tools and the engine is about out! Probably wont cut the mounts just redrill, test and tune and if I don't like, wich I think I will according to what I could read about the benefits.
Probably going for a rack and pinion out of the JY of a european car, to get a quicker steering and probably loose a few pounds and bye Bye the loosy feel of my old box!

Will keep you posted, I'm in the engine right, I had to drive a couple miles without water ( don't ask me why :( ) want to check things out while the front end off

Should be a better car once overhauled again!
Will keep you posted

Ben

Two observations:

Watch out when doing the guildstrand mod with aftermarket arms. It was originally done for two reasons. Increasing negative camber gain (One way of accomplishing this on the 1st gen is lowering the UCA mount compared to the LCA mount) and adding caster (moving the UBJ back in comparison with the LBJ). A lot of aftermarket arms have more caster baked in. The more you move the arm back by the guildstrand mod, the more you're adding in additional caster.

I'd avoid any rack with the stock sub. I originally looked into it, but it's almost impossible to retrofit an off the shelf rack into the stock sub without a whole mess of compromises. Unless weight loss is your #1 priority you'll be much better served with a better steering box. If on a tight budget look into using the steering box from a 3rd gen Camaro which originally came with 16" wheels. (the IROC and GTA are some examples)

[Hotwhilz]

Two observations:



Watch out when doing the guildstrand mod with aftermarket arms. It was originally done for two reasons. Increasing negative camber gain (One way of accomplishing this on the 1st gen is lowering the UCA mount compared to the LCA mount) and adding caster (moving the UBJ back in comparison with the LBJ). A lot of aftermarket arms have more caster baked in. The more you move the arm back by the guildstrand mod, the more you're adding in additional caster.

I'd avoid any rack with the stock sub. I originally looked into it, but it's almost impossible to retrofit an off the shelf rack into the stock sub without a whole mess of compromises. Unless weight loss is your #1 priority you'll be much better served with a better steering box. If on a tight budget look into using the steering box from a 3rd gen Camaro which originally came with 16" wheels. (the IROC and GTA are some examples)

Compromises? can you develop? Looks like it will be pretty easy to do, and bump steer shouldn't be an issue there is pelnty of room back there?

[another69]

What compromises are there with a rack & pinion?? I have a "off the shelf" Unisteer rack in my 1st gen, and it was one of the best mods I did, and it bolted on with very minimal mods. I was able to dial in almost no bump steer, the steering feels great, I have room for headers, and the weight is moved lower and rearward, not to mention the weight savings. Steering boxes just plain suck- thats why you don't see them anymore on cars. Can you name a modern performance car with a box? The rack is a better and simpler way to do things. I will never again build a car with a steering box, maybe a truck.

[Rhino]

Usually the biggest compromises come due to packaging requirements. I've not personally used the unisteer setup but have heard more complaints than praises. Most of the time it had to do binding due to excessive u joint angles to get the steering shaft down to the rack. I get the feeling that if you can get it working properly it wasn't too bad. If doing the effort to put in a rack I'd (personally) want to go a front steer setup at the same time. Due to the constraints placed on you by the rest of the stock suspension you'll likely have to go with a custom rack if you want good performance.

You're absolutely correct that no modern performance cars are engineered with a steering box, but you'll likely find that those frames were designed in this century, not the early 60's as the stock 1st gen sub. It is impossible to say that one is always better than the other. My point was that when you're trying to retrofit into a stock suspension everything is a compromise.
He also mentioned he's trying to do this on a budget. With that in mind I was thinking of something that could be found on the shelf at autozone. I've not looked at pricing lately, but last I knew the unisteer setup was north of $800. When you're doing this on a budget that's a far cry from a $130 reman'd steering box that bolts right up and would arguably give you the same performance.

[another69]

You're right, for a very tight budget a rack may not be the cheapest way to go, but you can easily spend more than $800 on wheels or tires. However, I can say that the Unisteer rack was very easy to install, I have more room for headers, and the steering feel and minimal bump steer were well worth it. As far as the steering shaft u joint angles- you do need to use 3, not 2 joints, but it still allows flexibility on shaft placement. This is my 1st rack after having several cars with boxes, and I can say I will never go back to a box.

[bret]

Compromises? can you develop? Looks like it will be pretty easy to do, and bump steer shouldn't be an issue there is pelnty of room back there?

Areas to check when installing a rack and pinion kit on any car that did not originally have one:

* bumpsteer - run the suspension through its travel and measure the toe change. Anything over about .250 through the suspension travel is probably excessive and will give you an uneasy steering feel.
* turning radius - turn the steering wheel lock to lock and see if the wheels actually turn far enough for your liking...or at least as much as OEM.
* steering linkage bind - with the car off the ground, turn the wheel lock to lock and see if there are any tight spots. These typically do not go away when the weight of the car is on the suspension.
* flex - with the car on the ground have someone turn the wheel lock to lock a few times and take a CLOSE look at the rack, the steering linkage, the mounting bracketry...anything in the system that might move that is not supposed to.
* header clearance
* oil pan clearance
* ground clearance
* weight capacity of the donor rack - if you install a rack that originally came off of a 2500lb. car onto a 4000lb car you could eventually overcome the fatigue limit of that rack. This is more of a problem for cars that are driven often and/or hard.

If you discover any of these problems yoor rack installation performance will likely be more disappointing than an oem steering box...and certainly inferior to and upgraded box. Some of these problems [if discovered] are solveable...some are not.

[Hotwhilz]

Thanks for the pointers Bret! Bumpsteer will be just as good as the stock box, I'm not experiencing any bumpsteer as now must be from the drop spindles I'm running, as far as packaging I will be copying what is already out there by using the lower control arms bolts and stich weld it to the subframe. Only point that is still unknown will be header clearance with the new input shaft positionning.
Good point on the donor weight I kinda missed that, will check the few donors I had in mind and take the heaviest! It will be mostly hard street driven and tracked a few times.

Will update with pictyures shortly as I'm about to start the mod, just got to pull the block to make it easier for fabbing and set up.

Ben

[GeoffP]

I was going to shout out for ridetech too but I see Mr. Bret beat me to it. Their spindles are by far some of the best bang for the buck out there. I'll be at RTOS with my car (barring engine/transmission problems with the new setup). I'm installing just the spindles on my car for RTOS - we'll see how much improvement I get. I'm betting it'll be a LOT better than the stock suspension geometry. My car already has the full Hotchkis TVS (great starting point for a car that has all original suspension pieces as mine did) so it should be fun.

[MCB Matt]

The shop 69 will be seeing the full ridetech front...ughhhum Bret

We are going to run upper/lower arms, coilovers and tru-turn with a DSE PS box.....just gotta get Bret or Danny to convince Kim we need to do this ASAP for this years crusing season!

Matt