Chassisworks 2nd Gen Camaro Subframe?

[olblue51]

Is anyone using the G-Machine front subframe on their 2nd Gen Camaro? I'm just curious how this subframe stacks up against others like Art Morrison and DSE as far as performace. I'm also a little concerned about oil pan clearance with the sway bar behind the crossmember. I'm using an LS6 that I currently have an F-body oil pan on.

I was originally looking into the Art Morrison C6 subframe but I'm pretty stuck on using Shockwaves. Looks like the Chassisworks subframe is my best bet but I haven't found much feedback on actual use.

[ProdigyCustoms]

No one has a Chris Alton subframe yet because they are not released yet.

As for the AME subframe, we can outfit that subframe with shockwaves. Done it many times.

[olblue51]

Ahhh, got it. Thanks, I was hoping you might chime in since I know you have alot of experience with Chassisworks and AM. I saw the "Spy Photo" thread for Chassisworks subframe from October of last year so I figured it would have been released by now. Do you have any idea of when that might happen?

As far as the Art Morisson subframe... What all is involved in getting the shockwaves to fit. I spoke with a salesman from Art Morrision last week and he said the swaybar links get in the way. He said it could be done but in his words would take some "Macgyvering". He also said the Shockwaves would have to be mounted upside down which wouldn't allow internal ride height sensors to work if I decided to go that route.

[wellis77]

In terms of mounting the shockwaves upside down, you just need to run external sensors. I'm dealing with what to do in that park now. I really want to run internal but may have to run external.

[olblue51]

Yeah, I thought about the external sensors but I really like the clean look and less hardware showing from the internal sensors. Compromises you have to make I guess

[bret]

Ahhh, got it. Thanks, I was hoping you might chime in since I know you have alot of experience with Chassisworks and AM. I saw the "Spy Photo" thread for Chassisworks subframe from October of last year so I figured it would have been released by now. Do you have any idea of when that might happen?

As far as the Art Morisson subframe... What all is involved in getting the shockwaves to fit. I spoke with a salesman from Art Morrision last week and he said the swaybar links get in the way. He said it could be done but in his words would take some "Macgyvering". He also said the Shockwaves would have to be mounted upside down which wouldn't allow internal ride height sensors to work if I decided to go that route.

The ShockWaves WILL work with the Art Morrison subframe. The swaybar links gets close, so you will have to check that clearance upon installation. You might even have to make some minor adjustment to the position of that link/sway bar end to ensure clearance. If so, it will be a fractional amount of effort compared to the overall subframe installation project.
The internal ride height sensor WILL work upside down. We have run hundreds like that.

The only subframe that requires more than the tiniest bit of work is DSE, and we have a bracket kit for that as well. Makes it look nice and eliminates 6 lbs of metal per side to boot.

Here is another potential solution: Call SpeedTech. They have no fitment problems at all. Neither does TCI. Or Heidt's. Or Fatmans. Or Chassisworks. Or Roadster Shop.

My apologies for you having to be confused with inaccurate information. Thanks for your patience...and your perserverence!

[olblue51]

Thanks for clearing that up about the sensors. That helps alot knowing I can still have that option. I love dealing with air ride Tech. I've bought parts from you before (including Shockwaves) and your service and tech help is top notch. I should have called you up and asked about the sensors in the first place.

The Art Morrison Salesman didn't say it wouldn't work but didn't go into much detail on fitting them up. When I told him the reasons I wanted shockwaves (low car, steep driveway, bad roads, ect...) he suggested trying coilovers first since they come in the package deal and if it wasn't to my liking, then I could fit some shockwaves into them. I just didn't want to pay a bunch of money for a subframe and get to a point where I'm having to change any geometry they have designed into their system to get the shockwaves to fit. Thats the reason I was looking into the Alston subframe. But if it's not that involved, I would love to use the Art Morrison setup seeing as I already have a C6 Z06 brake setup that I bought to use with my stock subframe

It does get confusing though... you mentioned Heidts but it specifically states on their ads and website that "Air bags will not fit". Unless the are talking about a setup with air bags with outboard mounted shocks and not shockwaves but that would seem a little far fetched.

I'm also still learning alot about suspension and I'm not very knowledgable about sway bars. I'm assuming the sway bar end link will need to moved further inward (if at all) to gain clearance. Will that effect the performance of the sway bar?

[ProdigyCustoms]

To do your AME subframe with shockwaves you will have to find a deler that can eliminate the Coil Overs without the $500 penalty and add shockwaves. That dealer would need to be a dealer for both product lines.

Hum, wonder who could pull that off?

[olblue51]

To do your AME subframe with shockwaves you will have to find a deler that can eliminate the Coil Overs without the $500 penalty and add shockwaves. That dealer would need to be a dealer for both product lines.

Hum, wonder who could pull that off?

Haha... Understood. I need to call you and discuss my rear options also. I'm thinking G-Link.

[wellis77]

The internal ride height sensor WILL work upside down. We have run hundreds like that.

REALLY??? I'm having my shockwaves are about to be built and I was told by one of your guys they couldn't be run upside down as well. Something about how the beam or laser reflects back. No issues whatsoever? Any sort of guarantee no issues what so ever??? This would help me because I can run the longer shock upside down giving me the clearnace I need.

Sorry for hi-jacking...

[marolf101x]

Ok, here's the "skinny" on the Internal Sensor running upside down.
We have tested this and it does work. . .however, I cannot guarantee for how long it will work. As such we do not "officially" sell it this way.

What happens:
The Internal Sensor measures the distance using infrared light from an LED. This light is reflected off the top of the shock body and picked up by two detectors. We can then calculate the distance based on time and triangulation (we do both so as to double check our measurement). Typically the sensor is mounted in the top of the shockwave, so any debris that may enter the system and reach an air spring settles to the bottom of the air spring or is blown back out to atmosphere.
When you place the sensor upside down you run the risk of debris blocking either the emitter or the detector, thereby making the sensor useless.
Here's a CAD drawing of the sensor so you get an idea of what I'm talking about:
InternalSensor3Dimage-small.pdf

Can you run the sensor upside down? Sure you can. However, you need to understand that it's not "if" the emitter/detector becomes blocked, it's when (now, this might be 10 years down the road. Since I cannot say with any certainty we always suggest using external sensors with an upside down shockwave as we KNOW it won't have issues.)

[wellis77]

Thanks for clearing that up Britt. Any feedback from guys that are running them upside down with internal sensors and how long until they've had problems? Once the emitter/detector becomes blocked, what are the options, replace the sensor, can it be cleaned, send it back to you?

Sorry to keep hijacking OlBlue, hopefully it helps with your decision though.

[olblue51]

Thanks for clearing that up Britt. Any feedback from guys that are running them upside down with internal sensors and how long until they've had problems? Once the emitter/detector becomes blocked, what are the options, replace the sensor, can it be cleaned, send it back to you?

Sorry to keep hijacking OlBlue, hopefully it helps with your decision though.

No problem. I have the same questions you do. My original question in this post went to crap pretty quick when I found out the Chassiswork's subframe hadn't even been released yet.

New question for Britt though... Does running the shockwave upside down also introduce more trash into the lines, valves, ect.?

[wellis77]

I've been emailing with Tony about my order and I am going to do the internal sensors up front, upside down. He's received no feedback from customers about them failing when upside down so I'm going to chance it. If they do become blocked they can be sent back in for cleaning/replacement, whichever is needed, OR, I can just pick up a couple external sensors and be done. I didn't ask about additional trash and he didn't mention it so I have no feedback there. Good luck on your build!

[marolf101x]

Running Shockwaves upside down does not introduce any more debris than would normally be present.
I've pulled apart A LOT of air springs and Shockwaves that had thousands of miles on them (and some with only a few miles on them) to determine exactly how much "crap" is in there. The short answer. . .not much. Typically you get a little upon initial installation as the air springs have mold release on them and there may be Teflon tape floating around the system, but these are very light and are exhausted to atmosphere after a few inflate/deflate cycles.
I've seen small pebbles, rubber, dirt, oil, teflon, just about everything you can imagine. However, we've run Shockwaves upside down with internal sensors for years with little to no issues. The problem I have is that to provide the best possible product we can I will not willingly release something that has a higher than acceptable chance of not working.
Would I run them on my personal vehicle? Sure I would.

If the sensor ever does become blocked you can simply turn it upside down and blow some air through the shockwave. This should dislodge the debris. If it does not the shockwave needs to be taken apart and cleaned out. The sensors are coated, so it shouldn't cause physical damage to the sensor.

I don't want anyone to be discouraged by this information, I just want everyone to be aware that if you run the sensors in this manner your chance for problems increases some small percentage.

[Tech@Scotts]

If you would like We are a dealer or both AME and ridetech I can see if I can work some magic and get you the package you want at a great price and service to boot! If you have any questions feel free to PM or email me

[olblue51]

Thanks everyone for the help. I think I've pretty much decided on the AME subframe. Although, I would like to see what that DSE bracket kit looks like that Bret mentioned earlier. Do you have any pics of that setup? I'm not too thrilled about cutting up a $7k subframe but I do like options.

When I decided I was going with an aftermarket subframe, my first choices were AME and DSE. Mainly so I could use the brakes I already have. I quickly ruled out DSE because it's obvious you can't fit shockwaves in it's stock form.

[pedro]

I have a ’69 Camaro w/ AME subframe and shock waves. I don’t know what the differences are between 1st and 2nd gen so some of this may not apply.

Over 1year and 1200miles no issues with the front internal ride height sensors.

The only problem I have with the sway bar is tires rubbing against it and limiting turning radius. I am running 18x10 7.2in BS. There were no issues with end links hitting the shockwaves. I believe the sway bar is different from the one they use with coilovers. ½ wheel spacer fixed my clearance issues.

The only real problem I have with the subframe is ride height. At the recommended shock length (13”) it sits pretty high. Lowering to where I think it looks good leaves you with very little travel and affects the handling/feel due to low bag pressures. Also fully dumped the front is much higher than the rear… looks silly.

Pete

[olblue51]

I have a ’69 Camaro w/ AME subframe and shock waves. I don’t know what the differences are between 1st and 2nd gen so some of this may not apply.

Over 1year and 1200miles no issues with the front internal ride height sensors.

The only problem I have with the sway bar is tires rubbing against it and limiting turning radius. I am running 18x10 7.2in BS. There were no issues with end links hitting the shockwaves. I believe the sway bar is different from the one they use with coilovers. ½ wheel spacer fixed my clearance issues.

The only real problem I have with the subframe is ride height. At the recommended shock length (13”) it sits pretty high. Lowering to where I think it looks good leaves you with very little travel and affects the handling/feel due to low bag pressures. Also fully dumped the front is much higher than the rear… looks silly.

Pete

That reminds me, I was told the AME subframe is around 1" lower than stock ride height. I remeber thinking that didn't seem like much but I figured that's what was built into the frame and you can get lower with shock/spring height. I want my car as low as I can get it within reason and without altering my inner wheel wells and fenders. I guess another question is... how low can I get with this setup in a 2nd gen, while still maintaining the recommended ride height setting for the shockwaves?

[bret]

Excellent thread! Britt...thanks for clarifying my simple comments on the IRS. I think learning about how that unit works will help everyone feel more comfortable with it.