pro touring engines

[yellow1098Greg]

ok guys i have a 77 ta and it has the original block with edlebrock complete top end other than a holley carb. My question is how functional can i make this engine? can i make it enjoyable/streetable in a true protouring style car or to do that do i have to go mordern LS crate style etc. Can i make it somewhat reliable to not have to fix something every 2 months? just was curious to hear some thoughts..thanks

[Daren]

Pontiac purists would say stick with the Pontiac engine, even if it is an olds. No one has to go LS, they are just very popular with the pro touring crowd due to the light weight, street ability and fuel efficiency. Building a Pontiac engine is going to cost you a premium over a SBC. The good parts are expensive.

I would speak to Pontiac builders and get some solid information from them. Tabulate the build cost and then compare that to cost of an LS conversion. Stay away from massive cams if you are looking for street ability. All I can say about Pontiac engines is go with kaufmann heads and intake. I say stay Pontiac just for the coolness of it all. If you approaching this unbiased then figure out what you want out of your engine and then go build, or buy an engine that does precisely what you want.

As far as reliability is concerned, the suspension and other non engine related parts are likely to fail before a well built engine driven spiritedly on the street. Replace all your old car bits, u-joints, ball joints, bushing cooling system, steering ect, if you are concerned about reliability.

[yellow1098Greg]

i understand that the build is expensive for a pontiac engine like that....but i think that the LS conversion would definitly be much more costly.......i currently have a built 400 with edlebrock performer heads and cam. it works great i have just been working out the kinks....but i was hoping i could get it as streetable as posssible while still ripping my import friends....lol.....i guess my goal is i want to drive it alot and was wondering once i get it set up will it be alot more costly on maintaince for the 400 set up

[Pro Stock]

If you want to talk to a great Pontiac guy call Don Johnston at DCI Motorsports.
dcimotorsports.com

Telephone:
____(330) 628 - 3354
Address:
____3573 B Gilchrist Rd. Mogadore, Ohio 44260
Email:
____General Information: [email protected]
____Sales: [email protected]
____Customer Support: [email protected]

Tell him that Dale Eicke gave you his number.

Dale

[Daren]

Again, old car issues are going to be the gremlins for any 70s automobile. Restore the mechanical bits on the car to better than new and throw performance parts at it where you see fit. Has you engine been rebuilt prior to adding the top end? I would hope so. Simply because a Pontiac 400 is an old engine design does not make it less reliable than a newer engine design. Your 77 T/A being a product of 70s car design and GM assembly does however make it more prone to failure than, say a 2010 Camaro.

Here is my .02 on street ability, regardless of what engine you choose. My father's 74 firebird with a racing 455 is making 600hp and is streetable but not livable on the street. I don't know the specs on the cam but it's massive and takes 5 min to warm up enough to move the car without stalling. Invest in some sound deadening material. High hp without deadening material makes the inside of the car very, very loud. Think live metal concert indoors. You can't speak to someone 6 inches from you and you look forward to getting out of the car and the end of the day. True track LSD is prefered to the clutch based GM posi-traction.

[72nova]

How about getting a LS2 out of a GTO. Then you could tell everyone its a Pontiac motor.

[The Stickman]

Does it have the Pontiac or Olds 403?

[yellow1098Greg]

Pontiac 400

[formula]

I daily-drove my bird with the original chevy 350 in it for like 5 years. It was more of a hassle than the LS is now, but it wasn't that bad.

[yellow1098Greg]

which LS do u have? and how much could i grab one for?

[Evil Stu]

I put 9000 miles a year on a 520 horsepower 455 with ZERO issues of maintenance and headache. Power accessories and an auto trans, idle in traffic at 165 all day if needed. Put gas in it, change the oil. Break 'em loose from a 20 roll whenever I feel like it. If you want daily drive smooth just don't do like Daren's dad (no offense to him, he wasn't building a DD). If you keep all the insulation/deadener or replace it with modern there is no reason for the car the be louder than it was new; people bought them new to drive to work and the mall. 450 honest no BS hp is easy with those heads and good internals, and that with a good idle and true DD manners. You'll never match the motor/trans combo for mpg with a carb but you can make that Poncho run.

[Z06vet]

Maybe also consider adding fuel injection at some point for added driveability and mileage? Sounds like a good motor. What kind of kinks are you having to work out on it?
Scott

[WS6]

Think of your goals first and then decide what it will take to obtain those goals. This may include changing the engine or not. Ultimately, I think you'll be happier with a car that does what you want it to do instead of being strict and limiting yourself based on engine selection. This is of course unless funds are not an issue. I'm facing this same dilemma with my LT1. I love LT motors but would the LSx motors give me the performance I desire? Luckily I have time to think all this over.

[tommycomfort]

Put a little time and money in the Pontiac and enjoy it for a year or two and see where you really want to be after that. Setup the suspension and brakes if you haven't already and just enjoy the car. Just my .02

[yellow1098Greg]

I put 9000 miles a year on a 520 horsepower 455 with ZERO issues of maintenance and headache. Power accessories and an auto trans, idle in traffic at 165 all day if needed. Put gas in it, change the oil. Break 'em loose from a 20 roll whenever I feel like it. If you want daily drive smooth just don't do like Daren's dad (no offense to him, he wasn't building a DD). If you keep all the insulation/deadener or replace it with modern there is no reason for the car the be louder than it was new; people bought them new to drive to work and the mall. 450 honest no BS hp is easy with those heads and good internals, and that with a good idle and true DD manners. You'll never match the motor/trans combo for mpg with a carb but you can make that Poncho run.

Thats exactly the situration i want to be in with this car.Id love to be able to drive it the way you did your 455..and i definitly want it to run.why have a hot rod other wise right??....id like to do some races at the track once in a while and not worry..i just did the engine rebuild and the shop thats helping me isnt the smartest when it comes to getting everything tightened up and running right. Timing, good gaskets...The build is definitly solid...the other stuff of getting everything to click right is the issue right now.....I think the biggest problem is them dealing with all the high performance stuff...

[yellow1098Greg]

Maybe also consider adding fuel injection at some point for added driveability and mileage? Sounds like a good motor. What kind of kinks are you having to work out on it?
Scott

I dont really know that much about adding fuel injection...what differences will i notice with that? the motor is set up great..right now its just little stuff.....the oil pan gasket is was leaking when the pressure in the engine goes up on high ways under 3500 rpms....on the local rodes no leaks...trying to find a better gasket for that...just all little assembly issues after the engine rebuild....need someone who knows what there doing besides the nuts in doing it with. good guys just not to knowledgeable when it comes to high performance classic muscle

[Chad-1stGen]

You don't need an LS motor to have a reliable pro touring car...

I have almost 18,000 miles on a stock 350 SBC crate motor that has basically the same tech as the 60/70's.

On top of the 18k miles the motor has seen 7 or 8 track days, a number of autocross events without issue. In the past 4 years I've had two engine related failures. At ~300 miles the ignition control module failed and was the only time the car left me stranded. Recently I had to change the alternator. Though I am running third gen accessories.

[yellow1098Greg]

well to get that situation where shes running right and reliable seams challenging right now because the issure im having is an annoying one....i just found out the problem i believe.....it is a situation where apperently the crank case isnt pulling enough vaccum and it is getting no negative pressure. It is getting to much positve pressure and blowing out the oil pan gasketb right where it meets the crank ....The only time it does this is on the high way at about 3000-3500 rpm then oil gets all over those headers and i get alot of smoke. I talked to a guy a Butler Performace Pontiac who said i need to buy vacum pump kit (bracket, pullys, the works) and its like 800$!!!!.....what i dont get is before i rebuilt the engine it never leaked and never blew gaskets and i didnt have any vacum pump. idk just annoying. makes me feel like something just was done wrong in the assembly to not be pulling enough negative pressure from the crankcase not getting enough vacum. what i need is just a mechanic who knows pontiac motors and can get her running right. ughhhhh!!!!!!!

[Chad-1stGen]

I'm no expert but usually excessive postive crank case pressure means too much blowby past the rings...

[hectore3]

My own "real" Pontiac 1969 428 big car engine for some inspiration to you. Build what you have it's always cheaper up front. Good luck.