How much do shims change camber.

[LS1NOVA]

If i wanted to increase the camber from -.7 to -2.0 with a few shims, anyone know the sizes without doing an alignment.

[MrQuick]

thats almost impossible to predict due to frame and mounting differences.

[Vegas69]

Google..... I'd guess about 3/16-1/4.

[Norm Peterson]

Approximately,

sin(1.3°) x ([UpperBallJoint height] - [LowerBallJoint height])

For a 9" difference in ball joint heights, Vegas' numbers (above) are certainly in the ballpark. 9 * sin(1.3°) = 0.204"


Norm

[LS1NOVA]

Thanks

[Nessumsar]

But, by adding more camber, you will also be increasing Toe-in.... Food for though.

[Lowend]

Alignment is more complicated than this...

[Norm Peterson]

It sounds like a temporary swap from a moderate performance street alignment to something a bit more aggressive for, say, autocrossing.

Yes, it might also help to tweak toe, but that's kind of a separate question in this particular scenario.


Norm

[79-TA]

-2.0 degrees is pretty aggressive for street use. If your car sees more street miles than track miles, I hope you take it back to -0.7 when not on the track. That or flip your tires before you wear out the inner shoulders.

[Skip Fix]

Actually most factory GM shop manuals, at least for second gens, have a very detailed chart for if your settings are "this" how many shims to add and where to get "there". So I guess GM thought it was that simple.

[LS1NOVA]

I have it aligned on a "street" setup with 5.5 caster and -.7 camber. Ill be autocrossing this weekend and would like to throw some shims in to get it to -2.0. Ill adjust the toe too. Any recommendations on that? Toe out right?

[xxxturbo6]

I have it aligned on a "street" setup with 5.5 caster and -.7 camber. Ill be autocrossing this weekend and would like to throw some shims in to get it to -2.0. Ill adjust the toe too. Any recommendations on that? Toe out right?

I don't know much about the Nova settings and where they should be but I run -1.2 camber on the street on my Buick G-Body and have no issues what so ever with inner wear on the front tires!

DSE sells their "Track shim kit" just for this reason, so you can add shims at the track and change Camber!



Here are my settings:

Camber: -1.2*
Caster: -6.15*
Toe: 3/32"

[formula]

Approximately,

sin(1.3°) x ([UpperBallJoint height] - [LowerBallJoint height])

For a 9" difference in ball joint heights, Vegas' numbers (above) are certainly in the ballpark. 9 * sin(1.3°) = 0.204"


Norm

Norm, where'd you pull this equation? Not doubting, just want to get my hands on the source as it seems like it may be valuable to have locked away somewhere.

[MrQuick]

DSE sells their "Track shim kit" just for this reason, so you can add shims at the track and change Camber!



Here are my settings:

Camber: -1.2*
Caster: -6.15*
Toe: 3/32"

I agree but it should actually be measured to get an accurate degree.

We had measured shim packs pre set at the shop for track swaps.

All in all most of our cars like -.7 to -1.3 degrees


Vince

[Norm Peterson]

I have it aligned on a "street" setup with 5.5 caster and -.7 camber. Ill be autocrossing this weekend and would like to throw some shims in to get it to -2.0. Ill adjust the toe too. Any recommendations on that? Toe out right?

I'm not that familiar with your chassis, but if it's a "front steer" arrangement, the toe will move towards (and probably into) toe-out as you shim the upper control arm inward and you might not have to even touch it. A rear steer car will go toward more toe-in.

For starters, try 1/8" (toe-out). Make paint marks and count turns. If you know the thread pitch and the steering arm length, you can estimate how many turns would be necessary to change the individual toes per 1/16" or whatever unit degree change you'd choose to use. Don't forget that one turn of the adjuster equals two threads adjustment distance.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Norm, where'd you pull this equation?

My own mental picture of what's happening to the upper ball joint location as you adjust camber by moving the UCA inward, with a little triangle geometry math. Think front view.

Keep in mind that it's only an approximation - it would never pass muster as a true geometric construction. But it's good enough for the intended purpose here, particularly when your thinnest shim is probably 1/64" (0.0156"), which gives you camber adjustment steps of about 0.1°. IOW, in this case, the magnitude of any error from the math approximation isn't worth either worrying about or the time it would take to develop a closer approximation that would be harder to use.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

I don't know much about the Nova settings and where they should be but I run -1.2 camber on the street on my Buick G-Body and have no issues what so ever with inner wear on the front tires!

Here are my settings:

Camber: -1.2*
Caster: -6.15*
Toe: 3/32"

Does your DSE suspension alter any of the G-body's geometry, as in taller knuckles (aka "spindles"), taller ball joints, or relocated chassis side pivot points? Is it stiffer than OE? The reason I ask is because at autocross -1.2° wouldn't be nearly enough. Here's a near head-on shot of my Malibu, showing 1° or so of positive camber in a turn. Static autocross setting was something like -2.7° . . .



I'm expecting OP's car to lose camber about half as fast as the car rolls, so a -2° setting will "cover for" up to about 4° of roll. That does assume that the front roll center is slightly above the ground, which may or may not be the case. If it's below the ground, camber will actually "gain" the wrong way over at least part of the suspension bump travel and you'd need to set it still further negative. In any event -1.2°-ish settings are unlikely to be enough for serious autocrossing even though it's fairly aggressive for most street driving.


Norm

[xxxturbo6]

Does your DSE suspension alter any of the G-body's geometry, as in taller knuckles (aka "spindles"), taller ball joints, or relocated chassis side pivot points? Is it stiffer than OE? The reason I ask is because at autocross -1.2° wouldn't be nearly enough. Here's a near head-on shot of my Malibu, showing 1° or so of positive camber in a turn. Static autocross setting was something like -2.7° . . .



I'm expecting OP's car to lose camber about half as fast as the car rolls, so a -2° setting will "cover for" up to about 4° of roll. That does assume that the front roll center is slightly above the ground, which may or may not be the case. If it's below the ground, camber will actually "gain" the wrong way over at least part of the suspension bump travel and you'd need to set it still further negative. In any event -1.2°-ish settings are unlikely to be enough for serious autocrossing even though it's fairly aggressive for most street driving.


Norm

With the DSE front Upper & Lower A-arms the suspension geometry is improved over stock by increasing camber gain and improving roll camber.

Yes the car is more stiff than OE..


The -1.2 was the setting we put it at for every day driving and when at the track for an Auto-x event we will bump it up a bit by throwing in a 1/4" shim for better results.


Below is a pic kind of similar to yours and the Camber was at -1.2 in this picture.

[Norm Peterson]

Have to wait until I get home to see the picture, as I expect it to be another useful data point.

@&%$#@#!()*& corporate internet filtering


Norm

[John Wright]

Norm,
Will this pic work for you?