Steering box?

[68poncho]

Hi, first of all, let me introduce myself, my name is John and i own a 1968 Pontiac GTO, it is in a frame-off resto-mod state right now, and actually i`m just beginning it, i was wondering what is needed when swapping an 80 Trans Am steering box into my car, i read in High Performance Pontiac Magazine that you could install it and gain a better steering, also, i installed an 8.5 corporate rear end from a 71 skylark, Hotchkis Springs, and the stock Skylark sway bar, as you can see, this is more of a low budget project, so parts will be mostly from junkyards, any info on the steering box is appreciated, as is any info on the installation of the front disc brakes from the same Trans Am.

Thanks in advance.

[MrQuick]

welcome to the site.

The 2nd generation f body steering boxes makes a great swap.

The brake/spindle you would need would be from an earlier Chevelle type A body. You can use the tall f body spindles but then you would need the upper control arms to make it work. You could use the calipers but try to find a complete set up. Don't forget to grab the proportion/combo valve and brake lines.

You can use that Trans am sway bar too.


vince

[68poncho]

Thanks a lot, i was worried that the secong gen steering box would cause problems, i read that you cant make a turn on the car so good, that the turning circle is affected. as for the tall spindle, i already have the whole setup, with ventilated discs, the issue is that at the moment the tubular control arms are out of the budget, i read YEARS AGO, that there were some ball joints available to make the swap, but i forgot the details.

[wmhjr]

Your turning radius will be changed due to the steering stops being closer together for the F-Body box. This means you won't be able to turn the wheel as hard in either direction. You can live with it though it can be a pain.

[MrQuick]

I've never had a turning issue with the 2nd gen box. 1st gen camaro, 2nd gen Camaro (70-79), 64-70 Chevelle boxes have the same internal stops. Pitman travel is 1/4 turn. We just confirmed at the shop.
The 3rd gen box you have to modify the inner stops.

Maybe going from a 4 turn to a 2 1/2 turn makes up for it.

Vince

[wmhjr]

The stops are definitely different between a 2nd Gen f-body and a 1st or 2nd gen A-body. Like I said, it may work fine and be acceptable but the stops are different. The stops having nothing to do with the ratio.

[BonzoHansen]

The box physically bolts right in. 1980 F-Body box will have metric lines, so be prepared for that. I forget, rag joint might be different too. This is a good link, it's about 3rd gens, but late 2nd gens are the same.

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=103139

[68poncho]

Thanks guys, let me get this right, from your experience this is a recommended upgrade for a cheap Pro-Touring GTO? i can live with a little less turn, as the GTO had 4.7 turns lock to lock with the original steering box. i was told that a 77-86 Chevy/GMC truck rag joint would help, anyone knows for sure?

[MrQuick]

great link Scott, oldie but a goodie... forgot all about that one.


vince

[wmhjr]

Thanks guys, let me get this right, from your experience this is a recommended upgrade for a cheap Pro-Touring GTO? i can live with a little less turn, as the GTO had 4.7 turns lock to lock with the original steering box. i was told that a 77-86 Chevy/GMC truck rag joint would help, anyone knows for sure?

Here's a data source I read back when I started on mine. It's focused on the Olds, but in terms of general steering questions, an A-body is an A-body. End links, center links, etc may be different between cars but the boxes I think were pretty much identical in terms of config. I honestly don't know how much different the steering stops are personally so I can't say exactly how much of an impact it would be.

http://www.442.com/oldsfaq/ofstr.htm

[zbugger]

Here's a data source I read back when I started on mine. It's focused on the Olds, but in terms of general steering questions, an A-body is an A-body. End links, center links, etc may be different between cars but the boxes I think were pretty much identical in terms of config. I honestly don't know how much different the steering stops are personally so I can't say exactly how much of an impact it would be.

http://www.442.com/oldsfaq/ofstr.htm

If you read your link again, you'll see the part about the steering stops is from the third gen box. Still a good swap on a A-Body though. The second gen box will be the same as the A-Body you are replacing, only it usually has a better ratio. The steering radius change will come from doing the "Tall Spindle Swap". That's because of the steering arms on the 2nd gen F-Body spindle being in a different location than the A-Body.

[MrQuick]

If you read your link again, you'll see the part about the steering stops is from the third gen box. Still a good swap on a A-Body though. The second gen box will be the same as the A-Body you are replacing, only it usually has a better ratio. The steering radius change will come from doing the "Tall Spindle Swap". That's because of the steering arms on the 2nd gen F-Body spindle being in a different location than the A-Body.

.....and a bit longer.

[claytonisbob]

.....and a bit longer.

That's what she said....

Sorry had to. Have you considered the Jeep Cherokee box? If you're going to go through the trouble of swapping boxes, it would be the same amount of effort and I believe the stops aren't as close as the 2ng gen boxes. You still need the different rag joint and hose inserts to get it to work. That is if you haven't gotten a 2nd gen box yet.

[wmhjr]

If you read your link again, you'll see the part about the steering stops is from the third gen box. Still a good swap on a A-Body though. The second gen box will be the same as the A-Body you are replacing, only it usually has a better ratio. The steering radius change will come from doing the "Tall Spindle Swap". That's because of the steering arms on the 2nd gen F-Body spindle being in a different location than the A-Body.

That was just a reference. But I believe you are not reading the reference correctly. My reading of it does NOT specify that the 3rd gen boxes are the only ones with different stops. As a matter of fact, I think it says just the opposite. It also mentiones the longer pitman arm used by that box in the F-body (resulting in the narrower steering stops, right?) I got the info that the steering stops between 2nd gen F and 1st gen A body being different directly from Chip at Power Steering Services. Somebody else on this site got the same exact information from him less than 3 weeks ago.

If the info is wrong, no problem. But Chip has been pretty darned accurate. And again - my reading of that link is very different than yours.

[MrQuick]

That's what she said....

Sorry had to. Have you considered the Jeep Cherokee box? If you're going to go through the trouble of swapping boxes, it would be the same amount of effort and I believe the stops aren't as close as the 2ng gen boxes. You still need the different rag joint and hose inserts to get it to work. That is if you haven't gotten a 2nd gen box yet.

haaa you went there.

Jeep box is a good swap but its just so much extra to do to work. 2nd gen box, just unbolt the old and put in the new with your old rag joint, hoses (early box) and piman arm. Done.

Vince

[RF GTO]

Here's a link to a spreadsheet that lists the specs for the various Saginaw steering gear applications through the years. It looks to me like the 2nd Gen boxes have a shorter travel...by around 10*...I'm not sure how that will affect the real world turning radius of an A-Body though.

http://www.chevelles.com/techref/ftecref29.html

[MrQuick]

nice link. Thank you.

The Chevelle's and Camaros in my shop have a 1/4 turn travel. Didn't think about putting a degree wheel on it. 10 degrees, no wonder I felt no difference. Not much difference depending on the pitman arm use but there is a difference. I stand corrected.

Vince

[wmhjr]

Problem is that to get the same steering radius with a 2nd gen box on an early A-body at least, you need to use a longer pitman arm. But, depending on the engine build, there isn't enough clearance sometimes to move the center link forward sufficiently, and you either have to use a different idler arm as well or the steering is not quite right. Also remember that all A-body setups are not the same. An example is that Pontiac center link, etc are different than Chevy.

Like I said, I have no personal experience driving one but I've been told that you can live with it, but the shorter wheel stops are noticable when driving.

[MrQuick]

not in my case. This is after using the same pitman and idler. Just a box change.

Did it on my old 68 GTO too.

Suprised that I didn't notice 10 degrees.
vince

[wmhjr]

I wonder if the geometry of the 1st gen A-body is more sensitive to the change than the 2nd gen for some reason.

Marcus?