Toe-in or Toe-out "darty" ??

[JEFFTATE]

So , as a general rule ,

Does more toe-in make a car "darty" , "twitchy " , or too easy to steer.
Or does it make a car more stable ???

Does more toe out make a car "wander" while going down the road
OR does it make a car turn easier ???

I'm confused.

It seems like 0" toe would make a car easy to turn ,
But would be a little unstable , like darty ???

So , what would more toe -in cause ???
What would more toe-out cause ???
Besides tire wear ??

[1badchevelle]

not sure but just avoid camel toe


sorry just had to.

[JEFFTATE]

not sure but just avoid camel toe


sorry just had to.

Funny.

[ponchopwr70]

Haha no camel toe good moose knuckle bad way to unstable.

Had too, sorry to get off topic. I'd like to know also. I set my car at 0

[Vegas69]

I have a word file from Toyo I can forward...

[JEFFTATE]

I have a word file from Toyo I can forward...

Thank You .

I'm just asking a "what if " question here.

[Tony_SS]

Toe in makes the car more stable.

[a67]

In general too much toe-in causes hard steering. A little toe-in is good for stability.

The other reason for a little toe-in (say 1/16") is to have the slack in the linkage taken up. It tightens up the linkage as the car moves forward.

Toe-out will cause wander. But also allows for a quicker turn-in. So for track purposes it can be an asset.

But toe-out on highway drives is a pain. The car just wanders all over the place.

Too much negative camber is usually what causes a car to be darty. That and wide tires that are worn a little funny along with roads that are rutted. This can cause a car to jump all over.

This is one reason I prefer the same wheels and tires on both front and rear. Once the fronts wear a little 'off', easy enough to swap front to back (same side) and true them up again. A judicious application of power seems to do the trick. ;)

Bob

[68sixspeed]

Maybe we can get Dave Pozzi to jump in here, but it also relates to if you have a proper neg camber gain vs stock (camaro pos. camber gain) IIRC more negative camber and camber gain likes more toe out, stock likes toe in. Front steer vs rear steer use to play in 'back in the day' because of having the tie rods in compression vs tension when going straight. Dave?,...

Oh, and the moose-knuckle....thanks a lot, some things can't be un-learned! Make it stop!

[Vegas69]

I've run a hair of toe in and now a little toe out and haven't noticed any difference down the road. The spreadsheet I have from Toyo tires in regards to race tires lists it this way.

Toe in increases understeer
Toe out decreases understeer

[JEFFTATE]

Ok , so ...

More Toe out = wander , decreases understeer , quicker turn in ?
More Toe In = good stability , increases understeer , takes up slack in linkage ?

My car is a little "darty" or "wiggly" when I turn.
Especially to the right.

I've got:

.45' Neg Camber - Left .50' Neg Camber - Right
4.00' Pos Caster - Left 4.25' Pos Caster - Right
2/32" Toe IN

So , It's just a little darty and I was in the process of re- aligning it because I got some new tires and I thought I might change the alignment around to get rid of the " darty " feel.

Hmmmmmm.

[JRouche]

Hey Jeff, I think you have yer head wrapped around it now, thats the way I see it too anyway.

I have a car right now that is darty and downright scary at times. I need to get it to the shop, I dont mess with my daily drivers (honda LOL) , I need the extra time to dial in my fav car. So anyway, this car goes down the highway fine, but it is lacking self centering , I turn, let go, she is still turning. And the steering is pretty touchy at speed.

Now through the slower turns, say a 45mph canyon road it gets "kinda" fun. I can steer in pretty fast but there is a point to where the oversteer connects (abruptly) and if yer not used to it you will be over correcting. But it makes for a fast turn,

I tend to like oversteer, as long as you KNOW ahead of time the car is gonna oversteer. Not a pleasant surprise if yer expecting a regular understeer type car.

I kinda got addicted to oversteer back a few years ago driving my P. Carrera for a few years. It was like hopping into a snow plow when I drove another car. Oh, but the porsche had a nasty lil habit of kicking the rear end out too early also. Heavy butted read engine. So that and oversteer made it a fun drive. No probs, as long as you knew to NOT lift the throttle when the butt came out, more throttle kept it in the lane, lots more throttle and it was really fun. Fun car to drive.

But this lil honda isnt. So with all the symptoms Im thinking I am toed out abit, either one or both sides. I really have to get some time to get her in. JR

Ok , so ...

More Toe out = wander , decreases understeer , quicker turn in ?
More Toe In = good stability , increases understeer , takes up slack in linkage ?

My car is a little "darty" or "wiggly" when I turn.
Especially to the right.

I've got:

.45' Neg Camber - Left .50' Neg Camber - Right
4.00' Pos Caster - Left 4.25' Pos Caster - Right
2/32" Toe IN

So , It's just a little darty and I was in the process of re- aligning it because I got some new tires and I thought I might change the alignment around to get rid of the " darty " feel.

Hmmmmmm.

[JRouche]

I've got:

.45' Neg Camber - Left .50' Neg Camber - Right
4.00' Pos Caster - Left 4.25' Pos Caster - Right
2/32" Toe IN
Hmmmmmm.

Oh yeah, I was gonna comment on that part too. Sounds really close to my numbers.

I am at .5* camber (both sides), 5* caster (both sides) and havent set up toe yet. Im still building it. So those are rough numbers.
Nice to see you can use so much caster, you will get some neg camber on the loaded tire in a turn with that, good thing.

Just from looking at it Im thinking you could use a lil more than 1/16" toe in. If the steering isnt heavy ( which it doesnt sound like it) then I would go looking at creeping in on that number. Just a lil toe goes a LONG way too. Your not racing, so a lil extra drag from some toe in cant hurt much.

What kinda sucks is there is a good way to tell if yer alignment is working for you, besides feel and performance. Ill take performance out of the picture, its a street car. So feel IS performance for a street car. But one way to see if its right. Read the tires. Yup, tire wear will tell you were the tire is meeting the road. And thats the part that sucks cause its a slow process and expensive by the time you see any abnormal wear. But thats something that should be considered for the future, when a few miles are on the tires.

And Im reaching now. But tire pressures. What are you using. Too high of a pressure will have you riding on a crown, that can give a twitchy steering. Dunno, just an idea. JR

[a67]

Ok , so ...

More Toe out = wander , decreases understeer , quicker turn in ?
More Toe In = good stability , increases understeer , takes up slack in linkage ?

My car is a little "darty" or "wiggly" when I turn.
Especially to the right.

I've got:

.45' Neg Camber - Left .50' Neg Camber - Right
4.00' Pos Caster - Left 4.25' Pos Caster - Right
2/32" Toe IN

So , It's just a little darty and I was in the process of re- aligning it because I got some new tires and I thought I might change the alignment around to get rid of the " darty " feel.

Hmmmmmm.

Not knowing the mods to the suspension, the only item in the alignment I would change is to have the caster the same on both sides. I set up the alignment 'square.' Same camber and caster on both sides.

Being a '69 with rear steer the ""wiggly" when I turn" can be caused by flex in the lower a-arm bushings. It can also be caused by bump steer.

Bob

[MrQuick]

JR, its good practice to staggar your caster with the higher number on the left hand drivers side to compensate for road crown. .25-.50 should be good.

[JRouche]

JR, its good practice to staggar your caster with the higher number on the left hand drivers side to compensate for road crown. .25-.50 should be good.

Good info. I have read that they are offset for road crown. Thanks for the numbers, will help me. Im just straight up right now for fabrication purposes. But no doubt Im gonna have to tune it for the real world. Those numbers give me a good idea of where to start adjusting for when the tires hit the road. Hopefully soon. Grassy!!! JR

[JRouche]

JR, its good practice to staggar your caster with the higher number on the left hand drivers side to compensate for road crown. .25-.50 should be good.

Oh, I shoulda asked Durr. Are you saying more POSITIVE caster on the drivers side. I know, sounds obvious, just wanna make sure. And to get more into it. Why more pos caster on the drivers wheel. How does the crown in the road affect the front suspension. travel and where does cater come into play.

Thanks for the info. Oh, so solly for hijacking the thread. If its getting off the original line of thought lemme know, Ill quit butting in JR

[NOGO]

Oh, I shoulda asked Durr. Are you saying more POSITIVE caster on the drivers side. I know, sounds obvious, just wanna make sure. And to get more into it. Why more pos caster on the drivers wheel. How does the crown in the road affect the front suspension. travel and where does cater come into play.

Thanks for the info. Oh, so solly for hijacking the thread. If its getting off the original line of thought lemme know, Ill quit butting in JR

For road crown compensation you want a bit more caster on the passenger side.

[MrQuick]

sorry that is correct...just as Jeff's specs....above. im bass ackwards tonight

it will drift towards the lower number.

[John Wright]

.....to compensate for road crown. .25-.50 should be good.

I used .5(diff) and it over compensated for the crown, had to get the numbers closer to get rid of the constant tug at the wheel...drives straight as an arrow now with no drift, even in the left hand lane.