What is too much when building a car.

[camaroboss67]

What is overkill on a build if it’s a street car do you need to have a aftermarket subframe or can’t you just do tubular an arms and for link or torque arm. I already know about budget but wanted to get guys opinions I see so many overkill builds and the car not being driven or used what it was built for. I have friends who buy parts because it’s the new thing or they’re trying out do someone else’s build. But I respect how someone builds their car but wanted start a conversation

[ryeguy2006a]

I'd say for probably 90% of guys out there a stock frame with or without revised control arms will be completely sufficient for cruisers. However, we are on a pro-touring forum so the folks here are looking to make their cars handle and perform above and beyond what you can get out of stock suspension. I will say that with a set of good control arms, springs/shocks and will significantly change the performance of your vehicle. I don't know if the same goes for going from stock to full aftermarket suspension has the same benefits to going full aftermarket suspension to a full on custom chassis with completely redesigned everything. But I'd have to imagine that it's quite a substantial change, but no first hand experience.

[Vimes]

What is too much? Too much is just enough. Build it to make YOU happy. If that means new A Arms, then that's the right way to go. If it means a complete new rolling frame, then that's the right way to go. I've done builds where I used parts from other makes to make it how I wanted, and others just needed a little wax to make it how I wanted. The one I'm working on now is a ground up, nothing untouched build, the next one will largely just be a drivetrain update. If you want to see this hobby taken to the extreme, check out this project.

[mikedc]

IMO a lot of impractical cars get built because guys make a series of decisions one-at-a-time. The car is taken apart for years. They aren't test driving it between each one. By the time they finally drive it for the first time, they have already committed to a lot of stuff.

A stiff seat, stiff shocks & springs, low gears, expensive paintjob, bad ground clearance, loud exhaust . . . each drawback might seem manageable by itself. But you have to keep sight of how this list of PITAs is stacking up.


As for suspension parts, it's important to understand what you're trying to fix before throwing parts at it. Are the stock wheel springs too soft? Is the camber geometry wrong? Is the roll center too low? Buying chassis parts without a plan is no smarter than throwing camshafts & carbs at a motor without a plan.

The factory suspension designers weren't stupid. They were designing for different tires, different owners, and had different spending limits. So yes, there is plenty of room to improve on the stock 1960s/70s setup today. But it doesn't pay to assume that any aftermarket part must be better just because it was made decades later and it's painted glossy.

[boss_hoss]

Coilovers for most people are overkill. Unless you're going to autocross it or really like geeking out on dialing in the ride height and suspension settings coilovers are an area where you can save money going with good quality lowering springs and good shocks. If you have access to a lift it's a bit different but the process of setting up coilovers can be time consuming and kind of annoying for a garage builder. I've run both and have settled on just springs and shocks and it feels just as coilovers with less hassle. Most coil overs have a service life too where you need to send them in for rebuild meaning down time, where as a traditional spring and shock you can just order a replacement shock and be back on the road.

[mikedc]

Yes I agree about the coilovers.

Race cars use them out of convenience. Lots of fine-tuned spring options, compact mounting, quick to disassemble, etc. But they are not better than a separate coil & shock in a typical street car.

[BonzoHansen]

What is overkill on a build if it’s a street car do you need to have a aftermarket subframe or can’t you just do tubular an arms and for link or torque arm. I already know about budget but wanted to get guys opinions I see so many overkill builds and the car not being driven or used what it was built for. I have friends who buy parts because it’s the new thing or they’re trying out do someone else’s build. But I respect how someone builds their car but wanted start a conversation

IMO, it's all about being brutally honest with yourself about
- how the car will really be used
- your time budget
- your $$$ budget.

“Too much” is often the result of not properly defining your goals, and then building a car that doesn’t actually do what you wanted. Your goals should define what’s right—and what’s too much or unnecessary.

Take, for example, when someone says, “I want to use it for street and racing.”
Are you really going to race it? What kind of racing? How often?
How important is winning versus just having fun? (This is *very* important)
How many street miles? Long trips or just short drives to the ice cream shop?
Is reliability important? What about HVAC and creature comforts?

A lot of guys blow a ton of money and time chasing an idea they’ll never actually follow through on, missing the true desired outcome.

Here’s a real-life example I know:
A buddy has well over $50K just in the engine—close to 1000 RWHP. Not only will he never race it, but the car kind of scares him. It took so long to build that it’s a bit dated now, and I don’t see him winning the big car show trophies he really wants. Mind you, the car is super nice. I’d love to fix all the bad decisions he was talked into that make it hard to drive. But the build got away from him—it took over a decade, and he had to pay for labor at every step. Yikes. That’s mortgage-level money, and it doesn’t make him happy. Too much.

Oh, and don’t compare yourself to anyone else—unless they’re paying your bills.

Define your goals, and the parts list almost falls into place.

[dontlifttoshift]

A good builder will save you from yourself, if you are check wrenching the whole thing.

A good parts supplier used to do the same but the smart ones got out of the "free advice if you buy some parts" business because the dumb ones cut all the margins to get the sale.


Anyways, there isn't a too much line in the sand for everyone but there is one for each of us.

[dontlifttoshift]

Define your goals, and the parts list almost falls into place.

.....and a whole bunch of this. I spend a ton of time defining the end goal for a project with the client before we turn a single screw.

[mikedc]

Here’s a real-life example I know:
A buddy has well over $50K just in the engine—close to 1000 RWHP. Not only will he never race it, but the car kind of scares him. It took so long to build that it’s a bit dated now, and I don’t see him winning the big car show trophies he really wants. Mind you, the car is super nice. I’d love to fix all the bad decisions he was talked into that make it hard to drive. But the build got away from him—it took over a decade, and he had to pay for labor at every step. Yikes. That’s mortgage-level money, and it doesn’t make him happy. Too much.

Yikes.

IMO the horsepower race is over these days. The hobby is full of street cars with 600+ horsepower, and that's realistically all you can use on the street. You can get that much in a crate engine with a warranty and a smooth idle. People walk past it at shows and barely look at it.


Sure, it's fun to have 500-600 HP. The vast majority of people never drive anything that powerful.

But when you start aiming for numbers like 800+ . . . everything turns into a PITA. The motor is heavy and hard to keep cool. It costs enough to buy another car. Every part on it is customized and takes weeks/months to replace. The rest of the drivetrain has to be big & heavy & expensive. The torque is scary to drive if the street is wet.

[Olds.PhD]

If you have access to a lift it's a bit different but the process of setting up coilovers can be time consuming and kind of annoying for a garage builder.

The process of installing and removing coil springs until you find the right ones or cutting them just right is also a time consuming process and extremely annoying for a garage builder. I went with coil springs and good shocks and very much wish I would have gone with coilovers.

[Zachalanche]

Tough question......I built a car that was way too much. I got burned out and wouldn't even drive it..then I started using it for what i built it for....then i got better at driving.....now its not enough. Power and handling are dialed. but it all works so good, that I'm kicking myself for not putting a dry sump oil system in in the beginning, and there's some other things that I plan to re-do as well. The chassis actually works so well, that I am considering more power at some point, and possibly some aero mods, although i should probably focus on some more safety things before i take it that far. But it's not a great streetcar. street legal? yes. Totally obnoxious to drive any distance...also yes.

think long and hard about how you really want to use the car (and if that will still be the intended use years later when you finally finish it), also consider where you live. I would rather trailer my car to a track and let it get peppered with chunks of rubber and random debris than drive it around on the gravel covered streets near my house stuck behind construction vehicles everywhere I go. - not much difference in damage in the end, but I like to choose how it gets ruined I guess.

After building many cars, my favorite daily driver ended up being an LS swapped 4x4 ranger. It's just enough hotrod to be fun, and not enough nice to matter, and there are no performance expectations. My pro-Touring car is capable enough that it's completely boring to drive within the speed limits, and is able to get me in a whole lot of legal trouble if I ever approach its limits on the street. Possibly even more so than my sportbike.

good street cars have rubber bushings, mild camshafts, decent ground clearance, quiet mufflers, paint that isn't overly expensive, are easy to get in and out of, and are built with parts that can be easily sourced from local parts stores...in my opinion. Even following that, there are lots of options out there that correct suspension geometry and allow you to have a great performing car.

[mikedc]

good street cars have rubber bushings, mild camshafts, decent ground clearance, quiet mufflers, paint that isn't overly expensive, are easy to get in and out of, and are built with parts that can be easily sourced from local parts stores...in my opinion. Even following that, there are lots of options out there that correct suspension geometry and allow you to have a great performing car.

This.

You can stray from the formula to some extent. But don't kid yourself - the formula for a streetable car is what the OEMs build.


The paint cost can be a big one. Unfortunately you can't really do a half-restoration on a 50yo body. You have to buy top-grade work or else the shop will cut corners in all the worst places (rust repair & panel mounting, paint/primer prep work, etc. Once you have a $20,000 body/paint job it's hard to stomach the wear & tear of driving the car a lot.

Any brand new car will have wear & tear after being driven daily for several years. A classic will age even faster. It wasn't designed to last as long from the factory, and many repro parts are inferior to the originals.