$5000 budget Mustang

[Norm Peterson]

The only reason I see to make the bore spacing that tight, was to conserve space.

My money is on emissions being the driving reason.

A 'square' bore & stroke tends to have a better surface:volume ratio and better emissions performance - in this case worked out for a displacement at or just under 5 liters. You end up with a shorter length block, but overall wider and taller in the engine bay due to the longer stroke and the longer rods to go with that longer stroke.

I don't care for this approach either.


Norm

[Ron S]

We can pontificate till the cows come home Norm, we just need to agree that is was just dumb. Another .75" of length on the block to spread the cylinders out a bit, to allow a 4"+ bore, would have made all the difference in the world on a naturally aspirated engine.

I really believe the DOHC design of equal size would have to make way more power then a push rod engine, but I guess we will never know. Well, at least we won't until GM or Chrysler come out with a big one. LOL

[Josh@Ridetech]

The DOHC is a huge engine, no doubt, and the cost to build them is also astronomical compared to an LS. I'm in the exact same boat as you were with the budget build. I've got a 5.3 in the corner for another Mustang build that I have going on, on the side. I'm sure I'll get a hard time about a GM powered Ford too but oh well .

[Norm Peterson]

We agree on most everything about the modular engines. I'm just annoyed that emissions reasons got to control the basic design to the extent that was apparently the case.


Norm

[Ron S]

I still find it hard to believe that emissions could have played that big a part. The LS7 is a 4.125 bore with no EGR, and passes emissions. I think it was just lack foresight, engineers not thinking anyone would want to extend beyond the original design. If you remember the Modular engine was called that because their was going to be a V6 and V4 version using the same piston rod internals.

Silly engineers....... don't they know that racers and hotrodders are the most ingenious humans on the planet. We are always going to push the limits, and modify until it breaks. LOL

[Paraman1]

This Mustang is one of my biggest inspirations and Loves in the pro-touring world. The fact that you use it and beat on it mercilessly is part of the allure for me. The fact that it has an LS in it doesn't phase me one bit. Maybe you should use that Ford Modular motor build in your AMX? That should get you some REAL hate mail and not all this pansy assed hand wringing the Ford purists seem to be generating.

[wannabebum]

Emissions is indeed the reason. Car manufacturers have to build all their vehicles to meet a certain carbon footprint. They are able to make small runs of specialized vehicles (such as those that have an LS7) because they make hybrid cars and tighten emissions among the vehicles with the highest sales volume. Yes, the LS7 will pass general emissions testing as required in some jurisdictions, but that isn't the whole story. Chevy had to tighten the emissions on other vehicles in order to be below their overall carbon footprint on the whole number of vehicles they built.

Ford's modular motor program likely mostly had to do with emissions and expense, not overall performance. The engines only have to meet a certain benchmark to be viable in the current automotive world, and according to vehicle sales at Ford, they have done that. I would agree that the motors themselves are huge, but in the last few years its gotten cheaper and cheaper to get good power out of the Coyote motors, narrowing the gap with the LS motors.

[Ron S]

That argument still doesn't hold water with me. GM makes an LS that is 4.8 liters similar to the 4.6 Ford, the same platform is made in 7.0 liters. The 4.8 which were made in mass had a much smaller carbon footprint then the 7.0 counterpart. Yet the ability take that same 4.8 engine and put 4.125" slugs in it, will allow it to be 7.0 liters, it will even take the LS7 heads........GOOD ENGINEERING.

The Mod motors DOHC head, not a super big port, but laid out in such a way that that flow well and just work, no pushrods, etc, allowing these engines to scream. GOOD ENGINEERING. The lack of foresight to allow the ability to make a 4.125" bore. BAD ENGINEERING. I think my gripe hear is wasted potential, they could have been so good, but weren't. PERIOD

[RMMiller]

I'm sure it doesn't help that the initial engineering on the mod motors was done in the 80's and they're still using the basic design. They probably had no idea technology would bring us to a point where the new cars put the grand muscle cars to shame. They probably never imagined a production street car with 840 HP running high nines of the showroom floor so they set the bar high for the time and are handcuffed to it today. Total uneducated assumption on my part.

[Norm Peterson]

Lack of foresight - which I absolutely agree must have happened at Ford - isn't an engineering fault as much as it's a management issue. There's more than enough examples where enough of 'headroom' was left for significant displacement increases all over the US domestic side of the industry, as any engine designer/engineer worth his salt would have known. Somebody else threw an unnatural limitation into the mix that tied engineering's hands (been there, had that done to me).

Back a little closer to topic, I actually think that at this point your "$5000 budget Mustang" would lose some of its 'no apologies' character if it ever lost its LS-series engine. Even if the move was to the newer LT series, it wouldn't be the same any more.


Norm

[twosaturns]

IIRC, some time ago I read that they were bound by the constraints of the existing tooling; coming up with new tooling to allow for more bore spacing would have been cost-prohibitive.

I don't remember the details, and I'm not an engineer, but we all know lots of the decisions are made by the accountants, not the designers or engineers. and although we are focused on the performance aspect, they have to see the whole picture.

[nimblemotorsports]

I don't see any problem going with forced induction to increase power for performance.
How many cars need more than 300 hp? None.
Roush has a 727 hp mustang, I'd say that is plenty for a performance car.
There are so many other options than LS motors, some people have no imagination whatsoever,
it is like the old days, 350 in every hotrod, just makes me yawn.

[Ron S]

What? Who needs more than 300 horsepower? I don't understand. The
Supercharged Roush engines you speak of heatsink terribly when road racing them, leaving them 150 horsepower light after just a few laps. Also the supercharger limits the engines lifespan. I do agree on the LS not being very creative, that is why I'm looking at other viable options. I truly did not want to put a Chevy engine in this car, but it was the only option for the budget limitations. Back when the car was put together there was not a lot of guys running the ls engines, now everybody is

[TURBO900]

Interesting, Love your car Ron, would have loved it even more with a Ford engine...... sorry guys just thinking aloud.

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Hot rodding is using what you have or what you can afford. I'm a Ford guy but I applaud the LS going in there for that reason.

[Ron S]

If you guys would have seen the LS1 I originally stuck in the car, you have laughed. I paid $300 for it, it came out of a burned Camaro, intake had melted inside, heads were already off when I got it. It had been setting on a garage floor in a local junk yard for years, cylinders were full of crap, stay dry, assorted crud, I swear there was some asphalt in those cylinders. I put it on the engine stand, rolled it over douched it out with a couple cans of brake clean, though some heads on there and took it racing. I know those engines are like assholes, everybody's got one, but they are an impressive design. Hell I would have put a Cummins in there if it would have meet my HP requirements and been $300. Even the second engine stock LS7 with a cam, went 10.94@ 130, impressive production engine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-oChZkQGsA

[Norm Peterson]

I don't see any problem going with forced induction to increase power for performance.

That's the drag racer's answer, appropriate for a few seconds of glory at a time. This is 'Pro-Touring.com', not 'Pro-Street.com'.

For road racing, even the OE's don't always get it right. The 6th gen ZL1 Camaro has something like 11 heat exchangers trying to keep things cool. Lessons learned from the ZR1 Corvettes; time will tell if even 11 is enough.

Then there's the matter of added weight (not what you want), usually located up front and up high (certainly not where you want it when cornering is important).

How many cars need more than 300 hp?

Ron's car isn't just any car. If it was, it wouldn't have attracted as much attention as it has (it's wider than just the 900k views of this thread here plus however many over on lateral-g and elsewhere).

If you haven't taken the time to read this entire thread (I suspect that you haven't), I suggest that you do so.


Norm

[AU Doc]

Looks like no matter what engine goes in there someone is going to disapprove..... So another approach might be to just throw caution to the wind and try to upset as many people as possible.

With that in mind, I'll throw this option out there

[beater65]

Looks like no matter what engine goes in there someone is going to disapprove..... So another approach might be to just throw caution to the wind and try to upset as many people as possible.

With that in mind, I'll throw this option out there

This isn't Tokyo Drift....lol

This real life haha

[blade]

What makes this car so cool isn't so much what it is, Ford vs Chevy, but who built it. The way you have put this car together and changed aspects of it to fit the budget at the time or to make it look a certain way is what makes it so great.

I'm a Ford guy, but I still love this car and the way it looks and the way it is built. As chopped and pieced together as this car is there wasn't a whole lot of Ford there to begin with. It's what a hot rod used to be.