69 Camaro subframe

[Bwheeler287]

I saw that someone recommended some tall spindle ball joint kit, I looked at that kit, its priced right but it won't work. the Camaro's bump steer increases BADLY when you add tall bottom ball joints, that kit adds those...no no...then they add tall outer tie rods and that brings the bump steer right back to the camaros stock curve? so I dont understand those to parts in the kit, the tall upper ball joint is what helps the poor camber curve, helps, in no way fixes, but helps..

what do you want out of the car? what is your budget?

If it handles as good or better than a modern muscle car then mission accomplished. Such as my 09 srt8 challenger, I'd be perfectly fine with that. I plan to drive it a lot to bigger events and if there happens to be an autocross etc.. there I'd like to be able to run hard in it. Im a long time racer of many different sports so I much prefer high performance over a luxury cruiser.

as far as budget, that is always relative for me. For example, if I can utilize stock type spindles and run normal tapered bearings, as opposed to spending 1300 on ats spindles with a sealed bearing, the bearing type alone is not worth that kind of money to me, but if it really offered that much difference in performance then it would be. This is just an example of how I think. I don't like to spend lots of money for a minor gain, I'd rather spend lots of money on a large gain and small amounts of money on small gains if that makes sense

[JEFFTATE]

If you are gonna use your stock subrame , I would get the ridetech TruTurn system with their spindles, control arms, and swaybar. Then get a quick ratio steering box . Get their single adjustable coilovers too .. Their products are tried and tested and priced right.

[Bwheeler287]

If you are gonna use your stock subrame , I would get the ridetech TruTurn system with their spindles, control arms, and swaybar. Then get a quick ratio steering box . Get their single adjustable coilovers too .. Their products are tried and tested and priced right.

Thanks for the suggestion. I have been studying that quite heavily. I noticed their sway bar is quite expensive. Is this because it is splined? If so what are the benefits of a splined vs standard sway bar?

[dhutton]

Thanks for the suggestion. I have been studying that quite heavily. I noticed their sway bar is quite expensive. Is this because it is splined? If so what are the benefits of a splined vs standard sway bar?

More tire clearance....

Don

[ra11ysport]

Thanks for the suggestion. I have been studying that quite heavily. I noticed their sway bar is quite expensive. Is this because it is splined? If so what are the benefits of a splined vs standard sway bar?

It's not a splined sway bar is just a fancy 3 piece setup.

[79T/Aman]

The PTFB tall spindle kit uses a longer outer tie rod to offset the taller lower ball joint, increasing positive caster will also improve bump steer,

The tall lower ball joint helps lower the car 1/2" somewhat like a drop spindle does, this helps lower the car without decreasing the suspension travel, this beneficial on first gens that are fairly tight in the A-arm area with a very short sway bar swing arm.
You have the option of not using a tall lower ball joint if bump steer is a problem.
A + .900" upper ball joint is available but may limit the width/back space of the wheel if less than 18" wheels will be used.
A bump steer kit also may be used if more bump steer adjustment is required.
This system does not require relocating the inner tie rod pivot points that can cause interference with oil pans and headers.

All in all the PTFB kit is an improvement with compromises as are all the other bolt on kits but the PTFB kit is much more affordable.

Dave

[TheJDMan]

The PTFB tall spindle kit uses a longer outer tie rod to offset the taller lower ball joint, increasing positive caster will also improve bump steer,

I get the sense from this statement that PTFB is just applying band aids on top of band aids. As others have said, your best bet is the proven performance of the ridetech TruTurn system. Also, do some research about welding up the seams on your stock subframe to increase its rigidity.

[Chad-1stGen]

A few things. Control arms by themselves don't fix camber gain at all. You have to change the ratio of the height of the control arm mounting point versus the height of the spindle. There are three ways to do this on a stock subframe. In order of cheapest to most expensive 1) Guldstrand mod to lower the upper control arm mount 2) tall upper ball joint to lengthen the effective spindle height or 3) buy a tall spindle like the ridetech or AFX. Control arms will only help with caster improvements.

Also, as an owner of a TCI equipped Camaro it is a very viable option if you do decide to go aftermarket subframe. In two years I've put over 20k miles on mine with over 20 track days and more than 50 autocross days. I've placed first in a bunch of local autocross events, podiumed twice at optima ULtimate Street Car as well as 4th overall in GTV and invited to the Invitational at SEMA. I only list those accomplishments to evidence the TCI subframe potential. If your goals are street driving with occasional autocross or track day most of the setups discussed will get you there.

If you do stay stock subframe prepare to spend more money on shocks and good tires if you are truly after autocross and track performance. The camber gain is the easy part...

[79T/Aman]

PTFB has an economical kit to improve the geometry of the 1st gen using bolt on parts that do not affect other major components.

FYI all the other kits out there for the stock frame have their pros and cons, the bottom line is how much do you want to pay for those pro AND cons ?!

[Rod]

I get the sense from this statement that PTFB is just applying band aids on top of band aids. As others have said, your best bet is the proven performance of the ridetech TruTurn system. Also, do some research about welding up the seams on your stock subframe to increase its rigidity.

agree with JD here on both points, I have raced my own car for many years at many levels in this sport and I have tried many suspension combos on the car, I tested the ball joints in varying combos early on I think Pozzi did also and he published pretty much the same results i had, one of the biggest things I did to the stock frame was welded it completely the factory simply stich weleded it 50 years ago, and after the frame was welded I had the frame shot peened blasted with steel shot, that allows the frames steel to relax again, (welding creates tension and twist in the steel) and then I didnt powder coat it I just sprayed it

[F-Body International]

I get the sense that this members on this forum play too well with sponsors rather than providing real tech advice. I've been a part of this forum a little while now and have seen many people say "go with any of the sponsors" or "proof is in the results" as their tech advice in various threads. What results? Who raced who? Just go with a sponsor and your good?

PTFB is not a current sponsor but has been in the past. Dave at the PTFB shop does build some badass parts that are exclusive to the industry. Please, don't take this as a discredit to other vendor designs...especially the ones that sponsor this forum. As we speak, PTFB is actually building my subframe with all the special tricks and modifications you can do. Mine, however, is a 2nd gen frame which apparently has better geometry to start with. Maybe I'm a little bit biased because of this.

[dhutton]

I get the sense that this members on this forum play too well with sponsors rather than providing real tech advice. I've been a part of this forum a little while now and have seen many people say "go with any of the sponsors" or "proof is in the results" as their tech advice in various threads. What results? Who raced who? Just go with a sponsor and your good?

PTFB is not a current sponsor but has been in the past. Dave at the PTFB shop does build some badass parts that are exclusive to the industry. Please, don't take this as a discredit to other vendor designs...especially the ones that sponsor this forum. As we speak, PTFB is actually building my subframe with all the special tricks and modifications you can do. Mine, however, is a 2nd gen frame which apparently has better geometry to start with. Maybe I'm a little bit biased because of this.

How long does it take PTFB to build a subframe because you have been saying this for quite a while?

Don

[79T/Aman]

Again the PTFB kit has options and as I said the tall lower ball joint does not have to be used but is a way to get another 1/2"of drop without causing tie rod interference with the wheel as do drop spindles.
The PTFB kit works well for a typical street car that is not dropped in the weeds, tall lower ball joints allow for a lower stance but put the outer pivot point lower in relation ship to the inner pivot for the same given ride height if only coils were used to lower the car.

Again this is not about patronizing so and so this is about what accomplishes ones needs and budget.

As for David Pozzi's testing, it was done without a longer outer tie rod or bump steer kit and the datum was based on a car that would be fairly low and with stock upper A-arms, and conservative positive caster setting

[Z06vet]

I'm pretty sure Rod & Chad are qualified to provide real tech advise. It sounds like you're building your subframe the way you feel is best, and keeping things within budget. I have a friend I autocross with that used some PTFB parts on his 69 camaro. He & I usually run near identical times. There are a lot of good parts & companies out there building some quality parts. Just because you feel PTFB is the way tot go, it doesn't seem right to discount the valuable expertise Rod & Chad have acquired and shared with this forum. I dont know anything about PTFB, maybe you could document your subframe build, and share pics with this forum. I'm always open to learn about affordable parts, as I like to build and Sell F-bodies.

[Rod]

I get the sense that this members on this forum play too well with sponsors rather than providing real tech advice. I've been a part of this forum a little while now and have seen many people say "go with any of the sponsors" or "proof is in the results" as their tech advice in various threads. What results? Who raced who? Just go with a sponsor and your good?

cool Im being called to the carpet!

OK then i didnt recommend a vendor, I am a vendor and nowhere in my post did I hock my company or my ****, I gave actual tech advice to his question from what I have done, I didn't suck up to a builder or friend and nowhere did I put down a vendor or product, as I stated some componenets do not play well with others and I dont give a damn who puts them in what package, some crap doesnt work together...simple... do i know it all, hell no, but I will give you it straight on what i have done, built, tested, raced, I put my name out there! at the top of my post and my signature, written articles about my industry, raced all over the nation with friends! If you want to know about me...google it.... Im not here to defend myself, Im here to learn from others and pass on what I have done so others can learn

Have a great weekend

so now back to the original posters questions!

[David Pozzi]

Here's my test data for tall balljoints: http://www.pozziracing.com/proforged_first_.htm
I just updated it with the tall outer tie rod data. For about a year I was not able to change my web page. Found out my ISP was repeatedly giving me the wrong link to upload to.

In my test, I started at less caster (3.4 deg) (stock upper A arms) than you would use with tubular upper A arms. More caster would rock the spindle down in the rear slightly and slightly improve the bump steer.

Tall lower ball joints dropped the car .5". in my tests, I started all the .5" LBJ tests at the same ride height as the stock lower ball joint. Camber gain increases as you lower a car so the tall lower ball joints caused the upper A arm to start in a flatter position and there is less camber gain for that combo. There may be travel and roll center height and migration gains or losses, - that wasn't investigated.

The main point of my tests shows the gains in caster and how much bump steer they add. The .5" tall tie rod ends help reduce bump steer on a stock Camaro but when you add a .5" taller UBJ, the tall tie rod ends only bring bump steer back to stock levels. The best bang for the buck is the .5" tall UBJ with tall tie rod ends. The taller UBJ makes bump steer worse than stock, even with the .5" taller outer tie rod ends. In my opinion, you don't want to do that. Another option is doing .5" tall UBJ with the Guldstrand mod. I would predict similar results as doing a .9" tall UBJ, - more bump steer than you'd like. There are bolt on bump steer studs that allow a Rod end to be used in place of the outer tie rod, but those don't allow enough spacers to fix the bump steer with G mod and .5" or the .9" UBJ. I think the outer tie rod end would need to be extended 3/4" to 1" to fix it. Heating and bending the steering arm or making your own Rod end conversion, or drilling out the steering arm taper to 3/4" and using a straight bolt with machined 3/4" to 1" spacer and a Rod end are the three solutions.

A first gen Camaro needs a new subframe as soon as you want to run a bigger tire than a 275x18 up front. Even to run a 275 you are going to have to do some very very careful setup and it will have to include needed wheel spacing at the camber setting you will be running. An aftermarket sub will be 5" narrower over stock and usually stiffer in torsion. Lighter by total car weight, mainly due to the lighter steering components and lighter A arms.

You need Corvette hubs in front and Corvette or Baer type floater rear hubs if you will be using 6 piston fixed calipers. Knock back is too high with stock front hubs and a non-floater rear. Stick with F/R floating calipers if you don't improve your F/R hubs. Manual brake systems are more sensitive to this but even power brake systems suffer knock back problems. I've driven Camaros with so much knock back that the rear brakes stopped working after a hard corner and the pedal had to be pumped to get them to work again.

Rodney has done amazingly well with a stock subframe, so I'd read his posts with care.

[F-Body International]

Don...
It takes about 2-3 weeks for a normal customer. 1 week to wait for the sandblaster and the rest would be getting the work done.

Z06vet....
I've been busy spending money with personal stuff so my '79 subframe was put on hold for a little bit. It hasn't been cheap for me the past couple months. Since September, I gotten married, bought a 4th gen LS1 T/A, and the holiday's have eaten up a little time/money. I, however, just ordered my front wheels for the 2nd gen on Wednesday so PTFB just started working on the subframe again on Thursday. The wheels should be in and the frame should be able to roll within the next two weeks. I will make thread on the build so everyone can comment or make suggestions there rather than continue to interrupt someone else's thread. Once my frame is done, someone else local to the PTFB shop with an '80 Camaro is bringing in their subframe to get done. That one should be a normal process unlike mine.

Rod...
I agree with getting back to original poster's questions. Like I said before, I'm not trying to discredit any other vendor designs...especially not you if you're a sponsoring vendor. Nowhere have I said that the True-Turn kit is a bad design. I apologize and I'll get off this thread now. Keep on wheelin' and have a good weekend as well.

[Bwheeler287]

I appreciate everyone taking the time to lend their knowledge and advice. Especially the honesty, many places one turns to for technical advice turns into someone trying to sell parts. I feel that most here are offering up what they have learned over the years and what does or does not work well. Especially the guys here with many many years of experience.

This has consolidated many of the other threads I have read that always left me with a few more lingering questions. I'm sure this will help many others out as well.

I'm sure there are plenty of guys out there like me looking for a cost conscious solution (note that I do not mean "cheap") that flat out performs without many wasted bells and whistles.

Don't get me wrong, there's always room to spend for a little bit of "cool" factor. Because let's face it, if none of this was cool and exciting, we wouldn't be doing it.

[Bwheeler287]

Here's my test data for tall balljoints: http://www.pozziracing.com/proforged_first_.htm
I just updated it with the tall outer tie rod data. For about a year I was not able to change my web page. Found out my ISP was repeatedly giving me the wrong link to upload to.

In my test, I started at less caster (3.4 deg) (stock upper A arms) than you would use with tubular upper A arms. More caster would rock the spindle down in the rear slightly and slightly improve the bump steer.

Tall lower ball joints dropped the car .5". in my tests, I started all the .5" LBJ tests at the same ride height as the stock lower ball joint. Camber gain increases as you lower a car so the tall lower ball joints caused the upper A arm to start in a flatter position and there is less camber gain for that combo. There may be travel and roll center height and migration gains or losses, - that wasn't investigated.

The main point of my tests shows the gains in caster and how much bump steer they add. The .5" tall tie rod ends help reduce bump steer on a stock Camaro but when you add a .5" taller UBJ, the tall tie rod ends only bring bump steer back to stock levels. The best bang for the buck is the .5" tall UBJ with tall tie rod ends. The taller UBJ makes bump steer worse than stock, even with the .5" taller outer tie rod ends. In my opinion, you don't want to do that. Another option is doing .5" tall UBJ with the Guldstrand mod. I would predict similar results as doing a .9" tall UBJ, - more bump steer than you'd like. There are bolt on bump steer studs that allow a Rod end to be used in place of the outer tie rod, but those don't allow enough spacers to fix the bump steer with G mod and .5" or the .9" UBJ. I think the outer tie rod end would need to be extended 3/4" to 1" to fix it. Heating and bending the steering arm or making your own Rod end conversion, or drilling out the steering arm taper to 3/4" and using a straight bolt with machined 3/4" to 1" spacer and a Rod end are the three solutions.

A first gen Camaro needs a new subframe as soon as you want to run a bigger tire than a 275x18 up front. Even to run a 275 you are going to have to do some very very careful setup and it will have to include needed wheel spacing at the camber setting you will be running. An aftermarket sub will be 5" narrower over stock and usually stiffer in torsion. Lighter by total car weight, mainly due to the lighter steering components and lighter A arms.

You need Corvette hubs in front and Corvette or Baer type floater rear hubs if you will be using 6 piston fixed calipers. Knock back is too high with stock front hubs and a non-floater rear. Stick with F/R floating calipers if you don't improve your F/R hubs. Manual brake systems are more sensitive to this but even power brake systems suffer knock back problems. I've driven Camaros with so much knock back that the rear brakes stopped working after a hard corner and the pedal had to be pumped to get them to work again.

Rodney has done amazingly well with a stock subframe, so I'd read his posts with care.

This is great info that helps tremendously with understanding the modification of the stock geometry. Bump steer is a tough animal to combat it seems, as it appears to be give and take until you get something your happy with

[nats68]

Are you happy with the performance you got from the tru turn? And did you do a close ratio box as well? I've been reading a lot about the tru turn and it does seem to be a viable option

Just chiming in here because I just did the Tru Turn On my 68 Camaro. I did the Tru Turn and dropped spindles. The tire clearance is great but I'm only running 245's on 8" wheels. I'm running 5" of backspace on the wheels.
I also had my factory steering box rebuilt with the close ratio gears. I love how tight the steering is.
I would really look at the ridetech stuff. Great quality and great customer service.