Toterhome questions

[austinjjesus]

Okay guys, so I found a toterhome with a stacker trailer I want to buy but I have questions about DOT and regulations. I would use it as something to stay in as well as something to obviously haul my vehicles to events. I want to wrap it and also use it as an advertisement piece for my small business (automotive related) but I wouldn't haul any actual products I am selling and I wouldn't be hauling anything for money. So my question is, is this legal? The toterhome in mind is registered as an rv so I could avoid scales and things from what I am understanding or am I understanding wrong? If I am using it as an advertising piece does that make the vehicle commercial? Any info helps. Thanks

I attached a photo of the toter so we all know what I'm talking about

[nokones]

Each State enforce their laws differently than other States when it comes to taxation and revenue statutes. Some states may consider your vehicle combo a commercial vehicle and some will not. Some States will consider you entering their state for commercial purposes because of what you have on the side of your vehicle. Nebraska use to do that years ago and will require you to purchase a commercial permit, not for the vehicle but, for conducting a commercial business

Depending on your state of residence, If your trailer is a tagged trailer and weighs more than 10,001 pounds or a fifth-wheel and weighs more than 15,001 pounds either in gross or gvwr, you may be required to have a Class A drivers license because of the weight. Some States offer a non-commercial Class A for the trailer. If your vehicle combination weighs more than 26,001 pounds, will be required to possess a Commercial Class A Driver's License.

[austinjjesus]

Okay, thanks for the info. Does the commercial label only have to do with size? Like could I get just a motor home and a small enclosed trailer and get away with it being non commercial?

[SSLance]

If your vehicle combination weighs more than 26,001 pounds, will be required to possess a Commercial Class A Driver's License.

I'm not sure that is exactly true... If the vehicle is registered as an RV, it'll have passenger car plates on it and from my understanding all passenger car rules apply to it.

I recently drove a 30,000# Class A RV pulling a 6100# trailer and only passenger car rules applied to me, no weigh scales, no CDL, no nothing. You may be onto something about a trailer over 10,000# having certain rules in certain States but I don't think it matters if the tow vehicle is registered as an RV.

Now, about it being commercial or not because of the wrap\advertising on it...that is another question. The way it has been described to me is if ANY dollar amount is earned via the vehicle itself, it is considered commercial and all commercial vehicle laws apply. It is probably open to interpretation if just a wrap is considered "earning money"...but I know that some States interpret that as commercial and the fines can get pretty hefty.

[nokones]

Lance - You are correct if it is a RV it will be registered as such and more than likely will display passenger car or RV type plates. However, the vehicle registration is one issue and the driver's license is another issue, two separate issues. The classification and endorsement of the driver's license sets the rules what vehicle type you/driver can or cannot drive regardless how the vehicle is registered and plated, and those restrictions are set by weight, number of axles, and number of trailers, and in some cases, trailer use/types (Live Stock, Farm Equipment, etc.). If the driver's license only allows you to drive a vehicle/vehicle combination up to 26,000 pounds, than you can only drive a vehicle/vehicle combo up to that weight as per the driver's license you possess regardless how the vehicle is registered.

A Commercial Vehicle is defined as transporting persons or freight for compensation.

Now, some states may not have strict restrictions on their driver's license such as motorhome endorsements, etc. If that is the case, you can drive your vehicle as long it is within your driver's license classification, in other states, and most states have to honor the rules of those other state's driver's licenses because of the Driver's License Compact Agreement that most states have signed together honoring those states driver's license rules/statutes within their states. The Driver's License Compact Agreement is written in the respective states' vehicle code statutes.

If you drove a Class A Motorhome, that should be a clue that a driver's license, other than a Class C, may be required to legally drive that Motorhome in your home State. It will depend on the state of residence and the statutes of your home state. In some States, and California being one of those States, some motorhomes (more than 40') require a driver to possess a driver's license with a Motorhome endorsement or a higher driver's license classification in order to drive a motorhome. In most states, the motorhome endorsement can be added to a Class C but, the Class C will not allow you to tow any trailer over 10,000 for a tagged and 15,000 for a fifth wheel, and you cannot exceed the vehicle/vehicle combination weight of 26,000 pounds. In some states, if the Motorhome exceeds 26,000 pound in weight, you will be required to have a Class B driver's license but, you cannot tow anything over 10,000 pounds.

I know, most people will get away with not having the proper driver's license type because there is no requirement for you to enter into a scales for an inspection. If your home State requires something more than a Class C and you are either pulling or driving a vehicle combination outside the limits of your driver's license classification, you will either get caught when you are stopped for that little license or clearance light violation or when you are involved in a traffic collision. If you are stopped for a traffic infraction and your are driving out of classification, the Officer most likely will tie you up until you have the proper driver's license or another driver comes and drives it for you. In most states, if you are stopped, that Office even cannot let you move the vehicle from the stopped location. It will have to be towed by his/her orders.

If you're involved in a traffic collision and another party is injured/killed and there is any civil action regardless who is at fault, that could be a major major problem in a civil litigation if you are driving out of classification. It may cost you big bucks just to defend the suit in that case, and I am "NOT" sure if your vehicle insurance company will cover that cost. You may want to check that with your insurance company agent or a lawyer before it does happen if you are driving out of classification. In some states they will treat driving out of classification as being unlicensed.

Now, entering the scales is another issue. Most states do not require a RV vehicle to be inspected in a Truck Inspection Station. In some states, if you're pulling a trailer, you must enter a scales regardless what type of vehicle your power vehicle is or how it is registered. Rather that is enforced or not would depend on that state or that Officer. In California, pickups do not have to enter into the scales but, in some states, a pickup must enter especially if it is towing a vehicle. In some states, technically, if you have a pickup with commercial plates, you must be inspected in the scales. Now, that may not be enforced.

Now, if you exceed the GVWR or the CGVWR of your vehicle, that will pose another set of problems for you regardless how your vehicle(s) is/are registered or type of vehicle(s) and the classification of your driver's license. Some States do enforce that rule.

My enclosed tagged trailer weighs over 10,000 pounds and the GVWR is 15,000 pounds. In California, I have to have a Class A Driver's License in order to legally tow my trailer with my 1-Ton Dually. However, since I do not transport persons or freight for compensation, I do not need a Commercial Driver's License so I was able to obtain a non-commercial Class A Driver's License and I am restricted to not exceed 26,000 pounds as a vehicle or vehicle combination or receive compensation. If, I exceed 26,000 pounds or receive compensation, I must obtain a Commercial Driver's License.

Now, with all that being said, lets go racing and have some fun.

Lance - I don't see you signed up for any CAM events yet? I hope you got Barney back together and chomping at the bit to run a CAM event. Better hurry up and sign up so someone won't sign up and grab your lucky car number before you sign up.

[Ron Sutton]

Kenny is spot on correct for California. It varies by State ... and a little bit by Officer ... although it shouldn't.

I had a Diesel Pusher (39' 6") & a Short Stacker trailer .... all under the 65' that forces you to have a Class A driver's license in CA. BUT ... the trailer had a 15,000 GVW sticker on it ... and the CHP that stopped it 150 miles from home ... wouldn't let the RV/trailer combo move without a Class A licensed driver. I wasn't with the crew, but got the call. I had to speed dial Rig Drivers to hire until I found one close & available to drive there ... show his Class A license ... and drive the coach & trailer the rest of our trip. After that, we had to change the GVW sticker to below 10,000, which is perfectly legal. (You can down rate a trailer below it's actual capacity but not above).

The other issue is the Highway Patrol officer are not dumb. They simple use their common sense & look at the rig & contents. If you have graphics of a brand on the side, a LOT of them will consider it commercial, no matter the specifications of the vehicle. We've had Officers see race cars & crew and know it was a professional race team, and therefore commercial. You may not have that issue.

Best wishes !

[nokones]

Okay, thanks for the info. Does the commercial label only have to do with size? Like could I get just a motor home and a small enclosed trailer and get away with it being non commercial?

In most states, size may not matter. It is what the officer thinks the purpose is. Many years ago, a friend of mine was towing a little itty bitty former like u-haul trailer behind his Camaro on his way to Nationals and he blew by the scales in Nebraska and they went after him and made him to return back to the scales. He asked why and he told them that he wasn't a commercial vehicle and that is why he didn't stop and they told him he was in Nebraska without a commercial permit because he has a sticker on the side of his little itty bitty trailer that displayed "Yokohama Tires", and that made him a commercial vendor. He was required to by a commercial business permit in order to leave and be on his way.

My son-in-law's was stopped in Arizona for having "Maier Racing" on the side of his trailer and the Officer was questioning him on his intended purpose for being in Arizona. His pickup had commercial plates and he was pulling a fifth wheel trailer well under the 15,001 pound rule. Based on what Mike told me it sounded like the Officer was trying to get Mike to say he was in Arizona for being a commercial vendor because of having "Maier Racing" displayed on the trailer.

You have to be careful on how you answer the Officer's questions.

[nokones]

Kenny is spot on correct for California. It varies by State ... and a little bit by Officer ... although it shouldn't.

I had a Diesel Pusher (39' 6") & a Short Stacker trailer .... all under the 65' that forces you to have a Class A driver's license in CA. BUT ... the trailer had a 15,000 GVW sticker on it ... and the CHP that stopped it 150 miles from home ... wouldn't let the RV/trailer combo move without a Class A licensed driver. I wasn't with the crew, but got the call. I had to speed dial Rig Drivers to hire until I found one close & available to drive there ... show his Class A license ... and drive the coach & trailer the rest of our trip. After that, we had to change the GVW sticker to below 10,000, which is perfectly legal. (You can down rate a trailer below it's actual capacity but not above).

The other issue is the Highway Patrol officer are not dumb. They simple use their common sense & look at the rig & contents. If you have graphics of a brand on the side, a LOT of them will consider it commercial, no matter the specifications of the vehicle. We've had Officers see race cars & crew and know it was a professional race team, and therefore commercial. You may not have that issue.

Best wishes !

That was true prior to 2014, it was based on just GVWR. Now, the law states both GVWR and actual laden weight of the vehicle.

[SSLance]

Not sure how up to date this is, but might help someone with their questions.

http://changingears.com/rv-sec-state-rv-license.shtml

Looks like there are some benefits of living in flyover Country. :D

[SSLance]

Lance - I don't see you signed up for any CAM events yet? I hope you got Barney back together and chomping at the bit to run a CAM event. Better hurry up and sign up so someone won't sign up and grab your lucky car number before you sign up.

I have a conflicting event for the Texas CAM Challenge so I won't make that one and the California CAM Challenge is just to far of a trip. Would like to make the Peru, IN CAM Challenge but it'll be later in the season before I can commit to that trip.

Hope to let Barney make heat again tonight for the first time in 2 months, worst case I'll be cruising around in it by Saturday working to break the new clutch in.

[TheJDMan]

Myself, I would not add a wrap with anything that could be remotely considered advertising for a business or race team such as sponsor decals. As soon as you start advertising, at that point you become a commercial vehicle in the eyes of the authorities and everything changes. The current owner of that unit has the right idea labeling it as a Private use RV and Not for Hire. A "commercial vehicle" over 26000lbs requires the operator to have a valid Class A CDL. However, a Private Use RV is exempt from this rule and the operator does not need a CDL of any kind no matter the GCVW. My neighbor owns a 40' class A RV diesel pusher and he sometimes also pulls a 20' enclosed trailer. His RVs GVW is well over 26000lbs and he does not have a CDL of any class. For three months each winter, he travels in this RV from here in VA to the south west and west coast including CA. In the 15 years I have known him to make this trip, he has never had an issue driving through all these states with no CDL.

I would be willing to bet money that Ron's rig discussed above had signage for his race team as well as sponsor decals attached to the exterior. Regardless of how the vehicle was registered the signage would be considered advertising which will make it a commercial vehicle in the eyes of most authorities.

[nokones]

Thanks Lance for posting that guide. It may come in handy for the states I travel to/through. Hopefully, I see you in Peru.

Also, if a driver/vehicle is subject to submit to an inspection, you better have the safety equipment like the 3 red triangle reflectors, spare fuses, and the appropriate sized and type fire extinguisher. And if you are carrying any hazardous materials like race fuel, any compressed gas vessel such as a nitrogen bottle, and including your fire extinguisher, you better have the respective "Materials Safety Data Sheet(s)" just in case you are asked for them. A couple weeks ago, I was in New Mexico and I was required to enter the scales and they asked if I had my safety devices. I said yes but, they didn't ask me to show them.

If you travel in other states with a trailer it would be best to read the signs as you approach the scales. Some read "Commercial Vehicles" must stop. If you are not a commercial vehicle you do not need to stop. Some states will have "All Trucks", or " All Trailers", or "All Vehicle Combinations" and it would be best to submit to an inspection instead of being delayed and received a ticket after they give you a thorough once over inspection. Some States will have a weight requirement on certain vehicles or vehicle combos for submitting to an inspection.

Just be careful and read the signs. If you are in doubt about being required to submit to an inspection it would be best error on the side of caution rather than being given a thorough once over with a ticket.

Now, let's get to the races without any incidents and have some fun.

[austinjjesus]

Jesus this all seems complicated. Maybe a class c motor home and a blank enclosed trailer will do the trick just to keep it easy. I'll leave the wraps for the cars lol

[rustomatic]

I would pretty much guarantee that if you skipped the wrong scale house with that set-up, in most states, you'd have a real angry trooper up your back door. If, when he stopped you, you did not have a class A license and all related accoutrements, that thing would not move without a very, very expensive tow truck. It's a rig--the lack of markings does not matter to most D.O.T. types. It's size and weight that matter, and even rolling empty (with "not for hire" on your door/power unit), you are a large revenue target (in the South, you're also another kind of target, but we needn't elaborate on that here). Take this from a former 18-wheeler slave of 10 years who's driven the big'uns in about seven states in the West and East . . .

[David Pozzi]

Here is the SEMA trailering info page: http://semasan.com/page.asp?content=...ilers&g=SEMAGA
I had a friend trailering a 5th wheel two car enclosed trailer from Oregon to California. It's legal for a class C license in Ore but not in CA. He got pulled over in northern CA and had to call a class A driver in to drive the rest of the way to Laguna Seca. If you have signage on the transporter or trailer, it's going to be impossible to say you aren't commercial. The officer may want to look inside the trailer and if the car is all stickered up, they will ask if you get prize money or sponsor money. Best you can say is the stickers are required by the event sponsors, no prize money, no sponsor money. If you get paid to drive the rig, or cars, you are commercial.

[TheJDMan]

The SEMA article is correct to a point. However, they failed to point out that a Private use RV which is registered as an RV, is exempt from the CDL requirements regardless of the gross weight. The problem comes when signage is added to the exterior advertising a company or race team with sponsor decals and such. At that point local authorities can and usually do consider the vehicle as being commercial despite the RV registration. Once a vehicle is considered commercial all the commercial operator rules are applied.

[Ron Sutton]

That was true prior to 2014, it was based on just GVWR. Now, the law states both GVWR and actual laden weight of the vehicle.

This was 2010 Kenny, but the CHP officer said both the sticker & the actual weight applied at that time too. Our trailer weighed under 10,000 ... but the sticker said 15,000.

[nokones]

Here is the SEMA trailering info page: http://semasan.com/page.asp?content=...ilers&g=SEMAGA
I had a friend trailering a 5th wheel two car enclosed trailer from Oregon to California. It's legal for a class C license in Ore but not in CA. He got pulled over in northern CA and had to call a class A driver in to drive the rest of the way to Laguna Seca. If you have signage on the transporter or trailer, it's going to be impossible to say you aren't commercial. The officer may want to look inside the trailer and if the car is all stickered up, they will ask if you get prize money or sponsor money. Best you can say is the stickers are required by the event sponsors, no prize money, no sponsor money. If you get paid to drive the rig, or cars, you are commercial.

If it was legal for him to pull his trailer with his Class C driver's license in Oregon than it is legal in California to continue his travel providing that he was not a legal resident in California. Oregon has signed the Driver's License Compact Agreement and California has to honor it. If that is the case, the Officer made a mistake which I have seen a lot.

Although, I do find it hard to believe that Oregon would have different requirements these days. Since, about 2002, All the states with the push by the federal government have agreed to the same commercial requirements in when it comes to driver's license classifications.

[nokones]

That was true prior to 2014, it was based on just GVWR. Now, the law states both GVWR and actual laden weight of the vehicle.

This was 2010 Kenny, but the CHP officer said both the sticker & the actual weight applied at that time too. Our trailer weighed under 10,000 ... but the sticker said 15,000.

Ron - your original comment did not state if the trailer was a tagged or fifth-wheel. If it was a fifth-wheel, the Officer made a mistake unless he felt it was a commercial operation and not a private operation and not used for hire. If the sticker stated 15,000 he was 1 pound under the limit. 15,001 would have put him into Class A, again, if he wasn't deemed commercial.

By the way, I just listened to you on the USCA podcast.

[David Pozzi]

If it was legal for him to pull his trailer with his Class C driver's license in Oregon than it is legal in California to continue his travel providing that he was not a legal resident in California. Oregon has signed the Driver's License Compact Agreement and California has to honor it. If that is the case, the Officer made a mistake which I have seen a lot.

Although, I do find it hard to believe that Oregon would have different requirements these days. Since, about 2002, All the states with the push by the federal government have agreed to the same commercial requirements in when it comes to driver's license classifications.

This happened about 10 years ago.