I think I got ripped off

[rohrt]

I purchased a set of used springs. They were suppose to be Hotchkis springs for my 68 bird. I've had them still wrapped up in the garage for years now. So today the day to install them. I pull them out I see they have # on the springs 21-339.

I go and look them up and they show for NOVA/CAMARO SPRING- 1970-81
GM OEM Replacement Leaf Spring, (5 Leaves, Rear)
and
1972-75 Pontiac Ventura 1-5/8" eye uses
1973 Buick Apollo 1-5/8
1973 Oldsmobile Omega
1973 Pontiac Ventura 1-5/8"
1974 Buick Apollo 1-5/8"
1974 Oldsmobile Omega
1974 Pontiac Ventura
1975 Buick Apollo
1975 Oldsmobile Omega
1975 Buick Skylark

These are certainly are not Hotchkis. My biggest issue is I don't even remember how I purchased them. Ebay? PT? Not that it matters now.

I found the guys name and number on the box. Not sure if I should do anything or just suck it up. Worst part is I have to go back to my old springs. I was looking forward to the Hotchkis springs. I'm not ready to shell out another $500 after spending the same amount on their Fox shock.

Just venting my frustration.

[4MuscleMachines]

That sucks. Hey similar situation happened to me as well. I'm sure many of the members here on the board have gone through the same thing.

Who happens when buying off board members and even sometimes when buying from vendors. Mistakes happen.

[raustinss]

Sounds like a similar thread about axles.....hmmm

[Build-It-Break-It]

I think part of the problem is you didn't check the part number before you bought them. Secondly is your barley checking part numbers years later and looking for a solution. I always ask for part numbers and open up the package before money exchanges hands.

Who knows, the guy you bought them off of could of also purchased them used and was told they were for a particular car but never used them to find out. You'll have to suck it up and move on if they won't work. But I would hardly call it being scammed years later after the fact.

[rohrt]

I think part of the problem is you didn't check the part number before you bought them. Secondly is your barley checking part numbers years later and looking for a solution. I always ask for part numbers and open up the package before money exchanges hands.

Who knows, the guy you bought them off of could of also purchased them used and was told they were for a particular car but never used them to find out. You'll have to suck it up and move on if they won't work. But I would hardly call it being scammed years later after the fact.

Yeah I blame myself just as much as the (_*_) that sold them to me. I think Bush was still president when I bought these. I wish I could find some info of what forum I found these on and see how I made such a huge mistake. I'm 95% sure these were sold to me as Hotchkis springs. I wanted the rears to match the front.

Even though I have the guys name and # I guess I don't see any reason to stir up a rats nest. I could always put in a craigslist add for free kittens using his name and #.


Edit.

I found a clue. I was able to go back and look at my older Paypal transactions. I guess it wasn't as far back as I thought. Looks like I paid $250 back in 11/30/2011 ID: 5JT26848541598813. That is more then the leaf springs are new. That Son of $#@!. If this was a ebay buy then I'm screwed at this point I would not have any more info on the details of the transaction.

[BMR Sales]

I know I'm guilty of this, but everyone needs to check parts when they come in not months or years later

[CampbellshotrodsAZ]

Are you sure they won't work? I believe I've read more than once that 1st/2nd gen leaves will interchange. Height might be off slightly one way or another, but they should bolt on. Might be worth trying them if you can't return them.

[rohrt]

Are you sure they won't work? I believe I've read more than once that 1st/2nd gen leaves will interchange. Height might be off slightly one way or another, but they should bolt on. Might be worth trying them if you can't return them.

They may work. They look very close. What I found online I already posted in my first post. I did not find anything saying they could be used in 1st F-body. I think I would rather put my original springs back in then experiment at this point.

For me I was wanting to match up the TVS front springs with the matching rear leafs. I also bite the bullet and bought the Fox shocks this year. Back of the car sits to high for my liking. And the car ride is terrible, however I think its because I had the rear shackles way over tighten and was using KYB shocks. I don't think the rear springs could move at all. In fact the @ss of the car I'm sure was bouncing off the ground when I would hit a bump. I discovered this when loosening the shackles last night. Not yet sure how to correctly tighten them.

I'm usually pretty darn careful on online purchases, especially with dollar amounts over $100. Life if a learning lesson. What sucks is I can't go back and retrace my steps to learn from this one. Assuming this was a ebay purchase I would have liked to see how the product was described and what the picture was.

I'm will most likely try and honestly sell the springs again since they do look pretty new and still have the 21-339(L/R) stickers on them. I will try and hunt down a set of used Hotchkis leafs.

[rohrt]

Well I did call and talk to the guy. We were both very nice. I asked him what he remembered about the leafs I didn't give him any clues, and yes he thought they were Hotchkis lowering springs. Again being over 4 years ago he didn't remember the particulars of buying them. But he did say he had them on a 68 firebird for a couple of years and then put in a 4 link.
He thought maybe he purchased through summit.

I could experiment with them but pulling the leafs is not that much fun. And trying to pull the bushing out of the springs sounds like less fun.

They sure look like there on the money and could work. They are a bit de-arched.

[kevs79]

I bought a set of new leaf springs from a vendor and it took 3 or 4 times (I lost count) to get the correct ones. Most had stickers on them that were the correct#'s but the actual stamping on the spring clamps did not match the stickers, others were in the wrong box but finally got the right ones. My point is who ever he bought them from could have screwed up and sent the wrong ones

[rohrt]

So I found a few examples where these springs were used on first gen cars but not enough to explain why the end user bought them.

https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...-Firebird-Nova

I was hoping to compare some of the spring data of what I want to what I have. Unfortunately Hotchkis 150-180 lbs/inch, and the 21-339 is in 660lb capacity.

Doesn't look like there is a comparison when rated like that.
http://www.eatondetroitspring.com/sp...-vs-load-rate/

the link above looks like a nice stance if in fact they are the same spring.


Hotchkis 2407C Leaf spring specs
Spring Flat Length (IN) - 55.75 Inch
Spring Free Length (IN) - 54 inches
Spring Width (IN) - 2.5 Inch
Number Of Leaves - 4
Spring Type Diamond Cut Multi-Leaf
Spring Rate (LB/IN) 150-180 Lbs Per Inch


21-339 spring specs
Width:2-1/2 Inches
Length (A): 25 Inches
Length (B):31 Inches
Arc (C):7-1/4 Inches
Number of Leaves:5
Pack Thinkness (D):1-3/8 Inches
Capacity:660 lbs.
Front Bushing:Included
Rear Bushing:Not Included
Note:1-5/8" eye uses (2) HB-1000 bushings, order separately.

So after a long time of searching different posts this is my conclusion: These 21-339 may have very well been purchased as lowering springs for a first gen F-body but they are not Hotchkis. From all I have seen these appear to be OEM replacement springs. Could they have been de-arched and re-sold by someone else? Possibly but if that is the case I still don't know what the spring rate is. OEM spring rates I would only assume would close to the same as the Camaro's (125-150lbs/in or so).

The guy I bought my bird from said that my springs I currently have are WS6 springs. I didn't know if I could believe him or not and no way to verify. If they are then they would be a higher rate spring but I will have to deal with the ride height.

[High Plains Mopars]

But he did say he had them on a 68 firebird for a couple of years and then put in a 4 link.
He thought maybe he purchased through summit.

I could experiment with them but pulling the leafs is not that much fun. And trying to pull the bushing out of the springs sounds like less fun.

They sure look like there on the money and could work. They are a bit de-arched.

Well, sounds like he confirmed they fit. Also, don't interpret a slight change in arch in static height to the actual drop of installed height. Those are two very different things due to load capability and a 1.5" static drop could equate to a 3-4" drop in loaded height.

Hotchkis 2407C Leaf spring specs
Spring Flat Length (IN) - 55.75 Inch
Spring Free Length (IN) - 54 inches
Spring Width (IN) - 2.5 Inch
Number Of Leaves - 4
Spring Type Diamond Cut Multi-Leaf
Spring Rate (LB/IN) 150-180 Lbs Per Inch


21-339 spring specs
Width:2-1/2 Inches
Length (A): 25 Inches
Length (B):31 Inches
Arc (C):7-1/4 Inches
Number of Leaves:5
Pack Thinkness (D):1-3/8 Inches
Capacity:660 lbs.
Front Bushing:Included
Rear Bushing:Not Included
Note:1-5/8" eye uses (2) HB-1000 bushings, order separately.

The Hotchkis quote of spring rate is the amount of force it takes to move the spring 1". The 21-339 quote of 660lb capacity is how much load it takes to hold the spring in specific (usually flat) position. Two entirely different measurements that are not comparable comparisons. You also have an extra leaf in the 21-339 that could be removed to drop the rate. Read more about it here: http://www.eatondetroitspring.com/sp...-vs-load-rate/

If they were mine, I'd try them out and tweak them until look they way I want and they work as a good compliment to the front system. However, if having the brand stamped approval of these being matched is important as a direct bolt in with no further adjustments being necessary, than no amount of work will make you feel good about them and you might be better of unloading them.

[TexasT]

You say the bushings are tough to remove. Id just buy and install some new ones in these mystery springs so You can get them on the car. You are already unhappy with the current springs and the seller at least claimed the worked on his first gen. Worse case You swap em back. Then there is the chance these work great. Wrenchin is half the fun.

[Ishmael]

2nd gen springs do fit on a first gen car.

[g-machine]

Check DSE part numbers - they sell the same spring (same part number) for 1st & 2nd gen f-bodies.

[dirty rick]

Which religion does Hotchkis subscribe to?
Stiff spring light swaybar, or Heavy bar light spring?

Rather than just matching a brand name F to Rear, I would be more inclined to put what is needs to handle on the back.

Does it push entering a corner or is it tail happy? Some of this will be affected by the front bar, shock, and tire combo.

What you want is a balance between pushing going in to push getting off the corner or a bias to fit your driving style (with some adjust ability to correct for varying track conditions).

If you don't race it and all you care about is stance what does it matter? Just get the ride height you want and put some Hotchkis stickers on them!

[MrQuick]

just run them, whats the worst that can happen. Note, I don't remember any of the leafs spring I purchased having any Hotchkis labeling or mark on them at all.

[badazz81z28]

just run them, whats the worst that can happen. Note, I don't remember any of the leafs spring I purchased having any Hotchkis labeling or mark on them at all.

My Hotchkis springs have no "hotchkis" identifiers either.

[Rod]

Which religion does Hotchkis subscribe to?
Stiff spring light swaybar, or Heavy bar light spring?

they use a medium stiff spring, and heavy bars..... I suggest a adjustable shock or a soft shock...stiff shocks made for stock suspension have to much compression and the car will ride WAY TO STIFF