Optima Events Are Fun But,

[1966mustangconv]

I thought that the subject of this discussion was "Are USCA high speed track sessions really safe for true street cars" and not a SCCA CAM discussion. Although, I do like the discussion about the SCCA CAM program, I was hoping to see more discussion on the USCA high speed track sessions in regards are they really a good idea for true street cars to be driven at those speeds that are being driven at Charlotte and Michigan.

I guess I could edit the tile of this discussion since there were only two responses on the USCA subject. But, please carry on with whatever discussion you want to contribute. It is enjoyable reading and I hope that Nokones gets to run his C4 Corvette in CAM next year. Don't give up Nokones.

[SSLance]

That's an imaginary class made up by Lance. :D Refers to those that will resort to any means to fit a 335 on the front of a FOX body for example, or have the means to stuff a 800 hp LS in a 2nd ge n Camaro with 335s all the way around.

I'm not against those cars being in CAM, don't get me wrong, I love them. I'm just not that big of a fan of racing against them in my stock bodied small tire Classic American Muscle car.

[SSLance]

I thought that the subject of this discussion was "Are USCA high speed track sessions really safe for true street cars" and not a SCCA CAM discussion. Although, I do like the discussion about the SCCA CAM program, I was hoping to see more discussion on the USCA high speed track sessions in regards are they really a good idea for true street cars to be driven at those speeds that are being driven at Charlotte and Michigan.

I guess I could edit the tile of this discussion since there were only two responses on the USCA subject. But, please carry on with whatever discussion you want to contribute. It is enjoyable reading and I hope that Nokones gets to run his C4 Corvette in CAM next year. Don't give up Nokones.

Sorry bout that... We get sidetracked easy... :D

I think the USCA handles the track portion real well by offering the Saturday only package. Don't want to run the road course portion, just sign up for Saturday. There are a lot of competitors on the USCA circuit that do it solely for the road course portions I believe. The safety part has to be up to the individual, nobody wants any driver to do something they don't feel safe doing and each driver has their own level of safety. I know I reached mine at NCM, no way was I going to go balls out on that course, I never once even slipped a tire while on course there. Didn't keep me from wanting to go out on course at all though, still had a blast.

[analyte]

I thought that the subject of this discussion was "Are USCA high speed track sessions really safe for true street cars" and not a SCCA CAM discussion. Although, I do like the discussion about the SCCA CAM program, I was hoping to see more discussion on the USCA high speed track sessions in regards are they really a good idea for true street cars to be driven at those speeds that are being driven at Charlotte and Michigan.

I guess I could edit the tile of this discussion since there were only two responses on the USCA subject. But, please carry on with whatever discussion you want to contribute. It is enjoyable reading and I hope that Nokones gets to run his C4 Corvette in CAM next year. Don't give up Nokones.

Sorry bout that... We get sidetracked easy... :D

I think the USCA handles the track portion real well by offering the Saturday only package. Don't want to run the road course portion, just sign up for Saturday. There are a lot of competitors on the USCA circuit that do it solely for the road course portions I believe. The safety part has to be up to the individual, nobody wants any driver to do something they don't feel safe doing and each driver has their own level of safety. I know I reached mine at NCM, no way was I going to go balls out on that course, I never once even slipped a tire while on course there. Didn't keep me from wanting to go out on course at all though, still had a blast.

Well said Lance!!

[IndyDave]

I just hope you all are looking at the rest of the field as well when analysing the results. ie: How did a car 10% off of the pace in C compare to a car 10% off of the pace in T? Or how did the the cars with 275 and smaller front tires compare against those with larger than 275s up front?

The field at CAM East clearly showed that there are some that are willing to do anything to their CAM cars to get faster, but there are a lot more owners that aren't as willing to cut their CAM cars up in the name of speed nor buy off the shelf new hot rods. That is the group that needs to be enticed to keep coming back in my opinion. Those are also the ones that did NOT have a place to race in the SCCA before CAM was started.

To me, the 3 classes should be geared towards the off the shelf hot rods, the older hot rods on smaller tires, and the unlimiteds...

Speed wise, the off the shelf cars have shown they can run right with the unlimiteds...but that just doesn't look right to me.

That's not going to happen Lance, at least not at this time. We're just not seeing that wide tires are that much of an advantage. Yes, at CAM East, two Fox body Mustangs showed up in CAM/C and they did well, but they were outrun by a 1LE Camaro on stock size rubber. As matter of fact on Saturday that Camaro was FTD over all 94 entries! In class competition, second (one of the fat tired Fox Mustangs) was 1.5 seconds behind 1st. The spread from 2nd to 10th was 1.992 seconds. The fat tire cars occupied 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 9th. The rest of the top 10 in CAM/C were all "small tire cars". The spread for 2nd through 30th was 5.671 seconds. Remember, these are cumulative times over 6 runs on the day! The reason I left 1st out of the equation because the driver was Sam Strano and he is arguably the best autocrosser who ever planted their butt in a seat.

[SSLance]

How many in the top 15 in either class were on 275 or smaller front tires?

Aren't the newer cars on "stock size" rubber all running front tires larger than 275?

[IndyDave]

Sorry, 1966Mustang, just saw your post and you are correct, I'll stop with the CAM talk. I think what got it started is the references you made in the original post to SCCA.

On the on track portions of any track day style event, each individual has to be comfortable and accept responsibility for the risks they are assuming. On the other hand, promoters of these events also have to accept responsibility for promoting an event that is as safe as possible. For street car oriented track days, rovals like Daytona or Charlotte I don't think are very safe. Many parts of the layouts are high speed with little to no run-off and some of the barriers are designed to stop stock cars moving at near 200mph. Same goes for some larger road courses like Road America or VIR. I personally have no issue with climbing into my hot road at a place like Putnam Park, Gingerman Raceway, or many other "Club tracks" as they are all designed with large amounts of run-off. I admit I would shy away from taking on Charlotte or Daytona in anything less than a full-on race car.

At the end of the day, the driver must decide what level of risk they are willing to accept.

[SSLance]

I also think when these comparisons are being made, a single fastest time should be used, not cumulative times.

[IndyDave]

How many in the top 15 in either class were on 275 or smaller front tires?

Aren't the newer cars on "stock size" rubber all running front tires larger than 275?

Sorry Mustang, this last one and I'll stop.

The Camaro runs a 305/30R19 the tread width depending on the tire is 10-11" A 275/30R19 tread width depending on the tire is 10-11". Restricting just the aspect ratio will not be any fairer than the way it is now. Now you have the choice on how you want to proceed. To be completely "fair", you would also have to restrict wheel diameter and aspect ratio. Going down that path is how one ends up with the completely over analyzed, confusing, infuriating, and put-offish rule sets that most who have flocked to CAM said they hated about the SCCA.

[dontlifttoshift]

The 1LE Camaro that Sam and Doug drove is on 275s. In fact in CAM-C there were 6 cars on 275s or less in the top 15. Of those 6, all of them are prepped for FS, which is essentially a stock car and may be equipped with aftermarket shocks and one aftermarket sway bar. Those 6 cars were also all on Bridgestones. They all weigh >3500lbs, they all have approximately 425 horsepower, and were all driven to varying degrees of success.

In CAM-T, I come up with 8 cars with 275 or less that I know of, there may be more. That includes is positions 2,4,7,8,11,12,14, and 15 and may include 6 and 10 as well.

[1966mustangconv]

Hey guys/girls, no you do not have to stop on the CAM stuff. I am enjoying the responses. I wasn't bitching. Please keep posting as you wish, that is what this forum is all about, exchanging information and occasionally, a lie or two.

[James OLC]

I thought that the subject of this discussion was "Are USCA high speed track sessions really safe for true street cars" and not a SCCA CAM discussion. Although, I do like the discussion about the SCCA CAM program, I was hoping to see more discussion on the USCA high speed track sessions in regards are they really a good idea for true street cars to be driven at those speeds that are being driven at Charlotte and Michigan.

I guess I could edit the tile of this discussion since there were only two responses on the USCA subject. But, please carry on with whatever discussion you want to contribute. It is enjoyable reading and I hope that Nokones gets to run his C4 Corvette in CAM next year. Don't give up Nokones.

Sorry bout that... We get sidetracked easy... :D

I think the USCA handles the track portion real well by offering the Saturday only package. Don't want to run the road course portion, just sign up for Saturday. There are a lot of competitors on the USCA circuit that do it solely for the road course portions I believe. The safety part has to be up to the individual, nobody wants any driver to do something they don't feel safe doing and each driver has their own level of safety. I know I reached mine at NCM, no way was I going to go balls out on that course, I never once even slipped a tire while on course there. Didn't keep me from wanting to go out on course at all though, still had a blast.

Sorry, 1966Mustang, just saw your post and you are correct, I'll stop with the CAM talk. I think what got it started is the references you made in the original post to SCCA.

On the on track portions of any track day style event, each individual has to be comfortable and accept responsibility for the risks they are assuming. On the other hand, promoters of these events also have to accept responsibility for promoting an event that is as safe as possible. For street car oriented track days, rovals like Daytona or Charlotte I don't think are very safe. Many parts of the layouts are high speed with little to no run-off and some of the barriers are designed to stop stock cars moving at near 200mph. Same goes for some larger road courses like Road America or VIR. I personally have no issue with climbing into my hot road at a place like Putnam Park, Gingerman Raceway, or many other "Club tracks" as they are all designed with large amounts of run-off. I admit I would shy away from taking on Charlotte or Daytona in anything less than a full-on race car.

At the end of the day, the driver must decide what level of risk they are willing to accept.

Very well said Lance and Dave.

Personal responsibility is probably the most understated consideration with any track or autocross or even road trip type event. It is YOU who has to make the decision if YOU are comfortable doing whatever you would like to do with your car. Bottom line, if you are intimidated, unsure, or at all hesitant about doing something with YOUR car then, by all means, don't do it. You are taking a risk any time you get behind the wheel and it is amplified if you are on any kind of competition environment. I have seen doors ripped off cars and cars on their roof - in autocross events. I have seen cars in tire walls, water barriers, and k-barriers - on the interstate. And I have seen (and done) some of that on a road course.

But YOU have control over two key things - your right foot and your pen.

If you think ANY event is not safe or beyond your skill or safety level than take responsibility and don't participate. If it is an otherwise safe event and you see something that concerns you, by all means bring it up with the promoter or organizer - more often then not they will listen to and address your concern. If you show up and it is poorly organized and patently unsafe - leave! It's up to you to choose to participate - nobody can make you participate in anything. You have the choice to sign up or not and you have the chance to park your car any time you need to.

If you find yourself scared, concerned, or uncomfortable in any event or environment, lift your right foot up an inch and see if your are happier at a slower speed. Your decision to drive beyond your skill or comfort level is a decision YOU make. Going too fast on the road course? Slow down. Freaked out by speeds in the corner on a roval? Try the small pedal to the left of the gas. Think there is no way for YOU to be comfortable on a particular track? Get off line, place your left hand out the window and exit the track at pit in. Only YOU know what you can do or are comfortable with and its up to YOU to adjust to the circumstances you are in.

The USCA addresses this in a few different ways.

First and foremost through their ONE DAY entry which gets you all the autocross, speed stop, road rally, and dinner that you could ask for out of a Saturday. Don't think you or your car is suited for the road course - don't feel that you have to participate. USCA has that covered for you.

Second option - go with the full entry and try to learn the road course at a speed you are comfortable with. The Novice group is no passing Lead Follow group and ultimately at your own pace. Jet Hot Coatings provides no charge instructors at every event and you are free to use them at your discretion. Most participants - from novice to expert - take advantage of this. You generally get up to five road course sessions and there is nothing stopping you from taking an instructor out with you every time. It's still up to you to drive as you are comfortable.

With all of that said, the USCA is what it is and asking or expecting them to dumb down their program is not fair to the folks who participate in their events for what they are. You have the choice to run Sunday's or not. Suggesting that the USCA take that opportunity away from folks who want to run on the Road course isn't a solution.

Just my two bits.

[IndyDave]

Very well said Lance and Dave.

Personal responsibility is probably the most understated consideration with any track or autocross or even road trip type event. It is YOU who has to make the decision if YOU are comfortable doing whatever you would like to do with your car. Bottom line, if you are intimidated, unsure, or at all hesitant about doing something with YOUR car then, by all means, don't do it. You are taking a risk any time you get behind the wheel and it is amplified if you are on any kind of competition environment. I have seen doors ripped off cars and cars on their roof - in autocross events. I have seen cars in tire walls, water barriers, and k-barriers - on the interstate. And I have seen (and done) some of that on a road course.

But YOU have control over two key things - your right foot and your pen.

If you think ANY event is not safe or beyond your skill or safety level than take responsibility and don't participate. If it is an otherwise safe event and you see something that concerns you, by all means bring it up with the promoter or organizer - more often then not they will listen to and address your concern. If you show up and it is poorly organized and patently unsafe - leave! It's up to you to choose to participate - nobody can make you participate in anything. You have the choice to sign up or not and you have the chance to park your car any time you need to.

If you find yourself scared, concerned, or uncomfortable in any event or environment, lift your right foot up an inch and see if your are happier at a slower speed. Your decision to drive beyond your skill or comfort level is a decision YOU make. Going too fast on the road course? Slow down. Freaked out by speeds in the corner on a roval? Try the small pedal to the left of the gas. Think there is no way for YOU to be comfortable on a particular track? Get off line, place your left hand out the window and exit the track at pit in. Only YOU know what you can do or are comfortable with and its up to YOU to adjust to the circumstances you are in.

The USCA addresses this in a few different ways.

First and foremost through their ONE DAY entry which gets you all the autocross, speed stop, road rally, and dinner that you could ask for out of a Saturday. Don't think you or your car is suited for the road course - don't feel that you have to participate. USCA has that covered for you.

Second option - go with the full entry and try to learn the road course at a speed you are comfortable with. The Novice group is no passing Lead Follow group and ultimately at your own pace. Jet Hot Coatings provides no charge instructors at every event and you are free to use them at your discretion. Most participants - from novice to expert - take advantage of this. You generally get up to five road course sessions and there is nothing stopping you from taking an instructor out with you every time. It's still up to you to drive as you are comfortable.

With all of that said, the USCA is what it is and asking or expecting them to dumb down their program is not fair to the folks who participate in their events for what they are. You have the choice to run Sunday's or not. Suggesting that the USCA take that opportunity away from folks who want to run on the Road course isn't a solution.

Just my two bits.

Well said.

[Cyclone03]

I will most likely be doing that as I attend more and more events (I have only been to three). Unfortunately the people that run my region's SCCA Solo events can be somewhat prude and dknt like to open up to outsiders persay. Hopefully as I continue to participate in events, they will open up and I (and others) will be able to get a better appropriated number of runs for our time allotted.

This is true here in San Antonio too.
The first location I ran with them,and they had used for several years, was noise limited. No cars out before 10am and off site by 6pm,last car done by 5pm. The new site,as far as I know, is open sun up to sun set but we start at 9a and I've yet to leave after 3pm with 5 runs. Now the summer heat here plays a roll and the club trys to limit course work time to 1 1/2 to less than 2 hours per run group,and frankly nobody wants to be out there at 3pm for another 2 hours.
I did some napkin figures and even suggested that running each group only 4 runs then swapping course workers for the next group (usually 3 groups of 30-40 cars) would limit course work to an hour per session but the long time members want to get in and get out. The other problem is the change over time is a cluster!@#$ , running to almost 30mins , then theres the guys who seem to disappear at the end of the day.... but 8 runs per day would be easy without killing the corner workers (if everybody showed up to there assignment)

When I raced motorcycles in Phoenix at Firebird first practice started at 8am , except for getting people to crawl out of bed I dont know why we dont start at 8am here.. Now to be fair the club officers are racing too,unlike my Bike days.
Because I was (am) mostly a class of one I never ran novice , but the complaints seem to come from members that the novices dont work the course after they run , I suggested run all the novices in the last session,but the long time members feel they have "earned" the right to work (the cooler) first session ,another reason they dont want to split group sessions,that and in the heat most times get slower so drivers will blow off the late sessions.and again no course workes. See nobody is happy.

[nokones]

I have only run two optima events, Texas and Las Vegas and I will definitely will run more events after I get my car back from Lingenfelter. I was hoping to run Bowling Green, Michigan, and Charlotte. maybe next year. I have to agree with Dave and Lance, people need to access their comfort level when driving the Hot Laps segment. However, the human factor does enter into the equation and even the expert and experienced drivers will loose some driving talent in certain situations and cause an incident.

I believe USCA does the best they can to try to make the course as safe as possible. I have to agree, cars running at those high speeds without the proper safety equipment is something that USCA should seriously take in consideration when running at those high speed tracks, especially with concrete barriers and tire walls.

My car has a SCCA approved 6 point with only one door bar that curves down for easier ingress and egress and this 6 point would only meet the minimum requirements for Solo I or Solo Trial events that are not held on professional race facilities such as Michigan and Charlotte. My cage would be acceptable for race facilities such as Thunder Hill because of the enormous run-off areas and the small number and placement of the barriers. My cage would never be accepted or approved for race facilities, under the SCCA rules, for tracks like Michigan or Charlotte.

I know that SCCA has a proven track record for SCCAing up a good set of class and prep rules but, I do believe they definitely have their safety requirements in good order and are well written and strictly enforced.

What I have notice with the optima events, they (USCA) will let cars run at places like Michigan and Charlotte without any racing safety equipment, just an OEM seatbelt. However, they do require the driver to wear a driver's suit and a neck restraint. I hope nothing ever happens and that someone gets hurt but, it will unfortunately happen.

Maybe USCA needs to develop a minimum safety equipment rule for running cars at those speeds at tracks like Michigan and Charlotte. I don't think allowing cars to run at those tracks without the safety equipment is a good idea.

[1966mustangconv]

I heard that two cars made contact with each other at the optima Road America event during the road course phase. This is a concern I have with the road course phase of optima. It suppose to be for time only and not a race. If it is not a race then why are two cars making contact? These types of events are suppose to be safe, or at least, as asafe as possible. I'm sure that contact could have been avoided by the drivers. Did the drivers have to sit out for the remaining phases of the road course phase? Usually at Open Track events put on by various Open Track Organizations, this is a hard fast rule, you make contact with anyone or anything, you're done and depending on the severity of the contact, you could be banded from that organization forever. This is a good rule to keep in mind in order to help prevent contact with anyone or anything. If you don't have a rule like this people will keep doing unsafe things without any consequences. Maybe if Optima had a rule like the Open Track Organizations that you get booted off the track that would help to prevent some of these crashes and other avoidable contacts. And if Optima does make a new like this they can also take away the road course phase points. That would hurt and make a person think twice before they run out of common sense driving ability.

I think too may drivers intend to be safe but **** happens when you get caught up in the moment and want to beat the other guy.

I think Optima needs to rethink the road course phase before someone gets seriously hurt, let alone damaging someone's nice car rather it is there own car or someone elses. Optima does not need to running events at those high speeds with street cars that do not have the safety equipment that is required for those speeds.

Optima should consider something like a Track Cross to replace the road course phase. I think Track Cross would be a lot safer than the road course phase. With Track Cross you run the tarck by yourself for time and these types of events should be held at safer track facilties.

[nokones]

Hmmm, the Track X is a thought? I see that they are doing a Track X at the LS Fest. I believe the Mid-Ohio Challenge had a Track X as part of their event in Wampum. I would like to try a Track X. This may be fun. Maybe SCCA can include this and/or a Start-Stop feature in their CAM program.

For the last couple of years SCCA has brought back the old Solo I, now called Solo Trials. They are running a Solo Trials at the end of the Solo Nationals. The Solo Trials are relative safe since the cars or neither one on the course at a time or very spaced apart.

Maybe USCA should look at this idea.

[IndyDave]

Anytime you get a bunch of cars going fast on the same stretch of pavement, there is always the risk of some of those cars running into each other.

I always keep in mind what Ken Schrader says: "It's 50% my fault because I was out there."

The other thing I take into consideration is can I afford to throw away the car if I ball it up? When I road raced, I ran a Neon. Why? I could afford to throw a Neon away. Other cars I may have preferred to race, not so much.