SCCA CAM-S Class

[dontlifttoshift]

The ignorance is strong in that post. They bend over backwards for corvettes and CAM was created specifically for American cars.

[SSLance]

I've personally sat with, talked to and watched both Howard Duncan and Raleigh Boreen while they watched CAM cars run on the course. I have no doubt that they LOVE American Muscle cars...and want to create a place for them to run with the SCCA.

I'm just not sure how much they love newer American Muscle cars. Let's not discount that they have a partner in these special CAM events scheduled and we don't know how much is being dictated by this partner as well.

[ragtop1966conv]

Kenny, I appreciate your passion for wanting to run your Corvette in a new class, but your quote above is so ridiculous, it's insulting. Did you ever read a review of a C4 Corvette when it came out (1st production car to pull .95g on a skid pad)? Have you ever opened your hood and looked at the front suspension? Those aren't Mustang II or Gremlin A-Arms, and yes you can easily fit 285-305 tires front and rear... A STOCK C4 Corvette, with the proper 200 Treadwear tires in the biggest size possible and a decent driver, would be dominant in an average Autocross next to the Mustang II and AMX and early Barracuda and whatever else in the class that isn't a Vette or a Cobra...

Why do you think he was ridiculous and insulting? I don't think he was. According to the rules of this forum (And I just recently read them), I thought that all of use forum users were suppose to have friendly and free spirited discussions and not make comments that could be considered an attack because of what they say or think or have a position on during a discussion on a topic. IMHO, that was not being very friendly.

When I read his original message and with the spirit/subject name of this discussion, I don't think that he is trying to have his Corvette in the same class as a Mustang II, AMX, and an old Barracuda. If I read the CAM rules right, those three cars would compete in the CAM Traditional Class and he wants the Corvette classified in the CAM Sports Car class with the one and only competing car, which is a Cobra. So, what is wrong with what he is trying do.

I think he was trying to make a point that they excluded the car without any hard facts because there are no C4 Corvettes competing with the full modifications such as high horsepower on a non-competition type tire that is required by the rules. A heavy car of that type and with alot of horsepower may not handle as well as most people think they will because the car may require alot of stick, and with the tires that they have to run on may not offer what those cars need. Heavy cars with high horsepower require alot of stick or its going to be a handful. To me, that means that it may not do as well as compared to other cars as some people may think. At this point, nobody knows how they will compare against other cars. I don't care if they do run or not but, I think they should be allowed to run to see what happens on the race course than decide what to do with them.

It is just fair to see what happens and change things as you develop the program.

Of course the STOCK C4 Corvette would be dominant in any race against the Mustang II, AMX , and an old Barracuda on any given day. That is why SCCA classified the Corvette in a higher Stock class than those three cars. But, if those three cars were to be heavily modified, by someone that knows what they are doing, as the rules would allow, I bet those same cars would be just as competitive as the Corvettes. There is no reason why, other than money and the driver, that those cars, or any cars, cannot be modified to be very comeptitive with any car.

[ragtop1966conv]

I've personally sat with, talked to and watched both Howard Duncan and Raleigh Boreen while they watched CAM cars run on the course. I have no doubt that they LOVE American Muscle cars...and want to create a place for them to run with the SCCA.

I'm just not sure how much they love newer American Muscle cars. Let's not discount that they have a partner in these special CAM events scheduled and we don't know how much is being dictated by this partner as well.

I have always called them the silent partners. Usually, you can figure out who those partners are by what contingencies are offered for the National Events. I remember the days when the emphasis were on either the Honda and Mazda cars.

[nokones]

The ignorance is strong in that post. They bend over backwards for corvettes and CAM was created specifically for American cars.

I think the administration side of SCCA (Solo Managers) tries to stay neutral in that regard. They (SCCA Solo Managers) usually will support what the members, including their Advisory Groups) are voicing. The Solo Program is essentially member driven and I think that is the philosophy/position the Solo Managers usually will take on any given proposal to develop a program or change the rules.

Many, and I mean many years ago, I was the Street Prepared Advisory Group Chairperson and based on my experience, I feel most of the objections with excluding the C4 Corvettes in CAM may be coming from the Solo Events Board and the respective Advisory Group members and I think the the Solo Managers may be supporting the decision made by those groups. That is usually what has happened in the past. I could be wrong.

For whatever reason why they have excluded the C4 Corvettes is beyond me at this time. That is why I have asked them to let the C4 Corvettes run in CAM-S and lets see what happens and go from there for 2016. It is a new program and at this particular time, no one knows how the C4 Corvettes will do.

[GrabberGT]

Of course the STOCK C4 Corvette would be dominant in any race against the Mustang II, AMX , and an old Barracuda on any given day. That is why SCCA classified the Corvette in a higher Stock class than those three cars. But, if those three cars were to be heavily modified, by someone that knows what they are doing, as the rules would allow, I bet those same cars would be just as competitive as the Corvettes. There is no reason why, other than money and the driver, that those cars, or any cars, cannot be modified to be very comeptitive with any car.

Why would a stock C4 race in a Pro-Touring class though. It should race in its stock class where the competition is already balanced. Chances are that the vette is also modified. To add to that, I'd bet you could modify a c4 vette for far less $ than you can any of the other cars you listed. Now lets rethink who would be dominant. I cant imagine the extent I'd have to mod my Maverick to make it competitive against a modified Corvette, or Cobra. I cant fit anything larger than a 285 on the rear much less the front.

For the record, Im not against the C4 being allowed in CAM-S. Im for changing the wheelbase rule so I dont have to race against them.

[nokones]

Why would a stock C4 race in a Pro-Touring class though. It should race in its stock class where the competition is already balanced. Chances are that the vette is also modified. To add to that, I'd bet you could modify a c4 vette for far less $ than you can any of the other cars you listed. Now lets rethink who would be dominant. I cant imagine the extent I'd have to mod my Maverick to make it competitive against a modified Corvette, or Cobra. I cant fit anything larger than a 285 on the rear much less the front.

For the record, Im not against the C4 being allowed in CAM-S. Im for changing the wheelbase rule so I dont have to race against them.

Chris - I totally agree with you. You should not have to run in CAM-S not only against the C4 Corvettes, if they allow them, also the Cobras. I did not realize that the Mavericks would end up in CAM-S based on the wheelbase. The last time I looked inside a Maverick, I thought they had 4 seating positions. I think they need to do away with the wheelbase rule. It is not necessary. I was a little surprised to see that they would have come up with that rule.

Write a letter and ask them to do away with the wheelbase requirements.

[rjsolo]

Even the stockfish C4 will need to spend the same amount of money to be competitive in Pro-Touring trim. They're not exempt from spending the same amount of money.

We disagree on this point. A C4 vette only needs springs and shocks to be competitive, where as earlier Gen cars would need a new multi-link rear suspension, tube front arms, aftermarket ABS system, upgraded steering, wide wheels and springs and shocks, to equal the handling of a C4. Even then, the earlier gen cars would need frame stiffening to make the upgraded susension work as well on a C4.

Funny you mentioned Dan Livezy, check out his awesome new $$$ Protouring C2 vette. 3 years in the making with an LS9?, carbon rotors, C6 suspension, etc. Even with that build, a stock Zo6 is probably quicker.

I don't mind having all American cars included, just separate out the older and newer sports cars.

Rick

[nokones]

Even the stockfish C4 will need to spend the same amount of money to be competitive in Pro-Touring trim. They're not exempt from spending the same amount of money.

We disagree on this point. A C4 vette only needs springs and shocks to be competitive, where as earlier Gen cars would need a new multi-link rear suspension, tube front arms, aftermarket ABS system, upgraded steering, wide wheels and springs and shocks, to equal the handling of a C4. Even then, the earlier gen cars would need frame stiffening to make the upgraded susension work as well on a C4.

Funny you mentioned Dan Livezy, check out his awesome new $$$ Protouring C2 vette. 3 years in the making with an LS9?, carbon rotors, C6 suspension, etc. Even with that build, a stock Zo6 is probably quicker.

I don't mind having all American cars included, just separate out the older and newer sports cars.

Rick

I only wish that was true, that a C4 only need springs and shocks. The cost of springs and shocks will run you about $7,000-8,000. Don't forget about the brakes. The C4 stock brakes are useless and the stock 245 horsepower motor won't keep up with the Ligenfelter motors. The only stock suspension part on a C4 that will be used is the lower control arms. Everything else will need to be replace.

Dan has very little time on his C2. Wait until he gets it dialed in and I doubt that any stock C6 will be able to keep up with him. They'll be looking at his taillights at a distance.

[soloracerSD]

I don't know why you guys whine so much..Classes FS,ESP and CP favor Muscle cars.Yes last 2 year a Subaru WRX won ESP at Nationals.Now they are removed from the class. So if you erase them from past results it's all be Muscle cars.As you guys may know I'm no fan of CAM-C..It should be SCCA SMH.Street Modified heavy 3300lb 108 wheel base minimum , rear wheel drive only front engine 4 seat FOR ALL MAKES.American Pony cars these days have IRS so no whinning there...and It would be DOT race tire.No need for segregation thinkers.THe car to have in FS these days is the 1LE Camaro.AS far as I know every CP class is won by a American car.CAM-S is kind of a return of B-Prepared.Allowing lexan front windshields for the first year must be just for that reason.Dusting off BPs.BTW there is to many classes.There isn't enough passionate autocrosser to fill them at National tours.Back before there was Street Touring classes.In San Diego we would reach the 315 entry National Tour limit and turn people away.I did that Tour in CSP class.

OK that's My rant. BTW if you do a lap of 59.00 in your Mustang .The Camaro wins with a 58.00 your okay with it.If you do a 59.00 in your Camaro but are beat by a BMW that did a 58
.00..Then quit the class..You might have IMPORT PHOBIA. LOL I don't have a issue with CAM-T..That as a class is fine with me.

[soloracerSD]

CAM-C has brought in some new to SCCA folks.One's who thought we didn't offer Muscle car favored classes.THen they notice we have the classes.FS,AS,STU,ESP, ASP,CP.True competitive classes which is what some of you are now saying CAM-C isn't or not affordable competition.We are now agreeing.. In SD CAM-C it's where the slower guys run to avoid the fast guys in ESP and AS.So delutes classes a bit.All of our ESP guys are on 200 tread wear.

[dontlifttoshift]

You bump a 3 month old thread to whine about us whining?.....and the car to have is a 1LE for FS because it won nationals last year, so that's it? If you wanted to make a point and rile everyone up, it should have looked like this.

Who cares about classes, a well driven, FOCUS ST RAW TIMED THE ENTIRE CAM CHALLENGE FIELD!

That would have done a better job and been way easier to type.

[soloracerSD]

If you don't care about classes then why be involved in the SCCA?Many say the 1LE is the Car to have in FS not just me.It has the widest stock wheels in the class helps..I'm not picking on muscle cars with small cars.Thats not the point here. I'm supporting Muscle cars and other mid to larger size cars.So why would I compare it to a Focus ST?I'm not a Muscle car hater.Many know that.


Yes I did a little whine.Every good debate has some whinning..

Was it a GS class Focus ST?

[soloracerSD]

They dumped the unlimited(Prepared) Corvette Class years ago. It was BP, CAM-S brings it back, kind of supportive of that,Just not a fan of heavily moded cars with 200 tire limits.I'm old school pre Street Touring class days guy.I understand it's cheaper and 200 tread tires have gotten really good..Street Prepared Catagory is dying out because of it

[nokones]

I don't know why you guys whine so much..Classes FS,ESP and CP favor Muscle cars.Yes last 2 year a Subaru WRX won ESP at Nationals.Now they are removed from the class. So if you erase them from past results it's all be Muscle cars.As you guys may know I'm no fan of CAM-C..It should be SCCA SMH.Street Modified heavy 3300lb 108 wheel base minimum , rear wheel drive only front engine 4 seat FOR ALL MAKES.American Pony cars these days have IRS so no whinning there...and It would be DOT race tire.No need for segregation thinkers.THe car to have in FS these days is the 1LE Camaro.AS far as I know every CP class is won by a American car.CAM-S is kind of a return of B-Prepared.Allowing lexan front windshields for the first year must be just for that reason.Dusting off BPs.BTW there is to many classes.There isn't enough passionate autocrosser to fill them at National tours.Back before there was Street Touring classes.In San Diego we would reach the 315 entry National Tour limit and turn people away.I did that Tour in CSP class.

OK that's My rant. BTW if you do a lap of 59.00 in your Mustang .The Camaro wins with a 58.00 your okay with it.If you do a 59.00 in your Camaro but are beat by a BMW that did a 58
.00..Then quit the class..You might have IMPORT PHOBIA. LOL I don't have a issue with CAM-T..That as a class is fine with me.

There is no way a non-american car can win in CP at any SCCA event, even if all the american cars decided to stay home. I am curious why only 203 people signed up for the San Diego Tour. That is unheard of.

[nokones]

They dumped the unlimited(Prepared) Corvette Class years ago. It was BP, CAM-S brings it back kind of supportive of that,

Prepared was never unlimited in so far as the rules. SCCA is rules infested and they always will be rules infested. Back when BP had a lot of competitors like Larry Park, you could not run 17" wheel. I believe many years later you could run a 17" wheel but, with a weight penalty. Also, electronic fuel injection was not allowed nor could you put a Chevrolet engine in a Ford. Even in Street Modified you cannot swap engines of different makes.

That is why a lot of competitors do not run SCCA anymore. There are too many performance limiting rules even in Prepared and in Street Modified. That is why they are competing in Good Guys and optima and you see these big events like the Mid-State Muscle Car Challenge, Motor State Challenge, and West Coast Muscle Car Challenge. There are no performance limiting rules, just a few requirements like tire, safety, and vehicle registration. You can do whatever you want to improve the performance without worrying about rules like SCCA have for their classes.

I believe SCCA would like to tap into the muscle car arena in hope they will come to their events. That is why the CAM program was created. The CAM rules is a good start and a work in progress and should be improved on in order for a successful program. Limiting any american car from competing in the CAM program is not a positive approach for the beginning of what could be a great SCCA program.

[dontlifttoshift]

If you don't care about classes then why be involved in the SCCA?Many say the 1LE is the Car to have in FS not just me.It has the widest stock wheels in the class helps..I'm not picking on muscle cars with small cars.Thats not the point here. I'm supporting Muscle cars and other mid to larger size cars.So why would I compare it to a Focus ST?I'm not a Muscle car hater.Many know that.


Yes I did a little whine.Every good debate has some whinning..

Was it a GS class Focus ST?

I like having no class,( see what I did there? ;) Im just there to drive around in a parking lot and hang out with my buddies. Yes a 1LE comes with the widest wheels, that should be a big advantage, again, that car was well driven. We'll see what the S550 does this year in FS and next year the 6th gen Camaro will be here on a smaller, supposedly lighter, better designed platform.

CAM killed talks of a real class, that's lame. CAM was only one class, now it's three because "that's not fair!" and yes GS Focus outruns everyone at the CAM challenge anyways proving again that Autocross is 90% a drivers sport........aaaannnndd that brings me back to the 1LE and it's widest wheels, similar weights between CAM and a FoST, what size wheels and tires are on a Focus?

[Ghiaguy]

And here I thought the F stood for what I what I received when I tried to find a competitive class for my car and I always had to go against V8's with my little four banger

[soloracerSD]

I'm glade you guys handled my commons as a debate and not as complete negative.DONTLIFTTOSHIFT ya My friend is Running a 1LE in FS San Diego.He started autocrossing less the a yr ago..He damn near is as fast as I am now in my old school CSP RX7.He was running in ESP but learn he wouldn't have to do much at all to his car and still be a National contender in FS.He was telling me the new Camaro will be lighter and that will be tougher competition.Here's a question for you.Why do the Dodge Challengers have narrow wheels.I saw a Hell Cat at our event.It was hard to think it had 700HP because the wheels were so narrow.

For Good Guys and the other events.It's good they are out there..The sport and hobby of Autocross is really getting popular.SCCA has been around a long time.Many people have asked for things,different classes and different restrictions to keep cost down for some classes and you still win. The Ultimate street car Challenge is now hearing those requests.They now have more rules.Rear spoilers there are smaller then any of the spoiler rules in SCCA SOLO.It's just the beginning..SCCA is 60 yrs ahead of them.About CAM last time a read the CAM-C specs 79 and newer right.108" wheel base isn't the FOX Body Platform 101.5?

[mpozzi]

There is no way a non-american car can win in CP at any SCCA event, even if all the american cars decided to stay home. I am curious why only 203 people signed up for the San Diego Tour. That is unheard of.

Sound is one reason, Kenny. The event is at Qualcomm and I think it's a 93dB. And the Pro is the following week at El Toro. There are the SFR Tour and Pro a month later at Crows Landing and pretty sure we will have folks coming up for those too.

Mary Pozzi