Introducing Project Unfair, The fastest All Around Pro Touring Car On The Planet!

[ProdigyCustoms]

John Parsons and I have been holding our breath on this Since SEMA on this! And it has been killing us both to hold it in.

We had to wait for the June issue of Super Chevy Magazine to hit the streets.

Project Unfair!

II Much Fabrication and Prodigy Customs have partnered up to build in the pages of Super Chevy Magazine the fastest All Around Pro Touring Car On the Planet!

John Parsons and Frank Serafine are going to where no one else has gone. We are re writing the Rule books! We are building a car to run with the best on the road coarse, autocross, Run 8s in the quarter mile and 200MPH + at the Maxton mile, all in a package capable of doing Power Tour and grab groceries.

Huh?

Pretty Strong Statement?

You Betcha!

So we are not screwing and around and going for the throat!

Introducing

Project Unfair!

Let's talk about the name.

Project Unfair.

It was John who came up with the name. We were talking one day about all things we are doing with this project and one of us said, it is almost Unfair! Then we start talking about Mark Donahue and the Unfair Advantage cars of Trans Am Legend, and the name was born.

So what is Unfair?

Revolutionary NO COMPROMISE Dual mode suspension will allow us to tune for handling or straight line activities. A true no compromise G machine set up and a true no compromise drag race set up. Kinda UNFAIR isn't it?

Supercharged LSX engine with a BIG blower and 2 pulleys, 750HP street pump gas set up, 1100 HP race gas set up. Kinda UNFAIR isn't it?

Traction control (Yes, traction control) Kinda UNFAIR isn't it?

Anti lock brakes (Yes anti lock brakes) Kinda UNFAIR isn't it?

Super lightweight using Chrome Moly, aluminum body panels, we are looking for 3000LB curb Weight. Kinda UNFAIR isn't it?

We are raising the factory floor 1 1/2" to channel the body, lower the ride height and COG. Kinda UNFAIR isn't it?

And there is more.

The entire build will be covered in 12 (6) page article issues of Super Chevy over the next year including Dyno and performance reports.

Project Unfair is also going to be covered here on the forum as a Pro-Touring.com Feature project. So members will get regular updates.

There is so much to the car, John and I are going to be fielding questions and telling more as we go.

Below are some renderings showing the 3 personalities and also the hulk we started with.

Enjoy

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Bow Tie 67]

Hey Frank thats a nice Vin# plate. LOL

[ryeguy2006a]

Subscribed.

[Steve1968LS2]

You will lose to Penny on the autocross. Kind of UNFAIR isn't it?

lol

Sorry.. couldn't resist.. :D

Bad Ass project.. Can't wait to see her all done up and killing apexes.. Even though you jilted me for another magazine I still get a free ride, right?

[CruizinKev]

:drool: omg killer project! :twothumbs

[parsonsj]

Steve, if you're nice to us, we'll let you drive it. :)

If Penny (the world's most sorted car) wins, that fair. If we win, it's Unfair!

jp

[Gitter Dun]

Dont count me out, I'm coming for you guys, LOL

[cheapthrillz]

Wow...... Good luck guys! JP and Frank.... that's a hell of a team right there! It's not really fair I guess....

I can't wait to see what you guys come up with for Aero improvements!

[jy211]

AWESOME! Now I better call you and try and get my heap in there!

[windsor]

Very nice!


8's in the qtr, though? I'll have to wait'n'see for that... :enguard: good luck!

[parsonsj]

And speaking of an unfair advantage, we've also assembled a team of engineers (several of whom helped out on II Much) to help/consult on Unfair. John Ulaszek (ME, with expertise in lightweight materials and materials interface design), Don Elliott (ME, who was the forced induction engineer on the Ford GT), Glenn Estelle (ME, who did the FEA for II Much's uprights), and Pete Visser (ME, who specializes in electronic fuel injection).

We're gonna have a blast with this project!

jp

[Jim Nilsen]

The project looks great and the concept is the extreme of what we all try to achieve. I love it!!!

The color is the best part for me, YELLOW cars are always the fastest !!!! Even the yellow privately owned Ferarri's would beat the red factory cars because they were YELLOW ,LOL.

[69camaro505]

That may be the start of a new trend. This sounds like a wild ride that will be the envy of Ferrari, Lambo and other supercar owners.

I was wondering when someone was going to start using the most modern technology available for our classic musclecars (i.e. ABS, traction control).

Congrats on the project!

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve, if you're nice to us, we'll let you drive it. :)

If Penny (the world's most sorted car) wins, that fair. If we win, it's Unfair!

jp

My car would be far more sorted if I would stop rebuiding it each year.. lol..

Hey, the way I look at it is that there are always gonna be faster cars.. but I will try to at least make you work for it.. ;)

And thanks for the offer to drive.. I don't tend to crash PT cars.. often..

[69camaro505]

You guys have some killer plans. A carbon fiber roof such as on the BMW M3's would look great, if possible.

[Ron.in.SoCal]

I can't wait to see how this unfolds.

I get the motor and ABS set up. Anymore details on the TC system your using? Also, what suspension system is this going on, front and rear?

Aluminum panels are great, but any worries about stress cracks? You see that on custom motorcycle tanks all the time...

Ron

P.S. you'll still have time to take orders, right? :)

[OLDFLM]

It's UNFAIR that I can't see the pics at work!!

[ProdigyCustoms]

When John and I dreamed up this little adventure, we were sitting at Barret Jackson with the cars before they ran through. One of the key objectives in building Unfair was building a car that someone could duplicate without a ton of crazy fabrication and one off parts. We want the car to accept available aftermarket components and hold super custom fabrication to a minimum. Which would rule out a CF roof.

The body will stay all alloy with steel and aluminum panels all supplied by Auto metal Direct.

We are using their MUCH improved panels everywhere we can. And are using their aluminum front panels (sheds 115LBS off the nose) and aluminum deck lid and rear bumper (sheds another 20 of the rear). We are not so focused on losing much rear weight, we are looking to reduce weight overall, but the closer to 50 / 50 balance we get, the better.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Aluminum panels are great, but any worries about stress cracks? You see that on custom motorcycle tanks all the time...


Not worried a bit about stress cracks. We are only using bolt on panels in aluminum. These panels are the coolest thing ever. Kind of like the old Gillette comercial!

These panels are so cool we became distributors!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Bad94]

Frank, just seen the project in the new super chevy.


Cant wait to see this project build.

[NOPANTS-68]

Running 8's with 1100 HP is a tall order in a 69 Camaro, but I can't wait to see you guys get there. Best of luck.

[oestek]

someone could duplicate without a ton of crazy fabrication and one off parts. We want the car to accept available aftermarket components and hold super custom fabrication to a minimum.

I'm sorry, WHAT?

Raised floor, dual-mode suspension, ABS, and minimal fab?

That's not UNFAIR, it's UNTRUE!

Just bustin' balls, guys... it's going to be a killer car. I wanna ride!

[Gitter Dun]

Not worried a bit about stress cracks. We are only using bolt on panels in aluminum. These panels are the coolest thing ever. Kind of like the old Gillette comercial!

These panels are so cool we became distributors!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

I just ordered this assembly yesterday, and I was quoted total of 110 lb weight reduction

[wellis77]

Glad you finally posted this Frank. I've been waiting for this since I saw the beginnings at the shop in February. Good luck on the build! Can't wait to see more...I wonder if I can get Super Chevy in Switzerland. Got to check on that.

[ProdigyCustoms]

I just ordered this assembly yesterday, and I was quoted total of 110 lb weight reduction

You paid to much!

110 from repro is probably accurate, factory stuff is a bit heavier.

[ProdigyCustoms]

I'm sorry, WHAT?

Raised floor, dual-mode suspension, ABS, and minimal fab?

That's not UNFAIR, it's UNTRUE!

Just bustin' balls, guys... it's going to be a killer car. I wanna ride!

You know what, raising the floor was a lot eaiser then it sounds. You will be surprised. That story is already turned in and due out in 45 days or so. But in summary, it added about 60 hours to a full floor project.

[parsonsj]

Kevin,

The first article will show you how we raised the floor. You start by calling Advance Metal Direct and getting one of their full floors. Then you cut the old floor out, and then install the new floor all the way up on the rocker panels. You'll need to make some small simple pieces of metal to fill a few gaps, but you can get everything you need at Home Depot. Not something a guy can do in his driveway, but something a competent body or build shop can do... it's no more difficult to do than installing mini-tubs.

Dual mode suspension: call Frank. AME (Art Morrison Enterprises) developed it, and they are gearing up to add it to their catalog.

ABS: Uses mostly GM parts, and AME has a working version. We'll show you how in Super Chevy. :)

I guess what Frank means is minimal fab compared to II Much or Prodigy. You'll be able to buy the parts from vendors and install them in "traditional" ways. We won't be making custom floors, radiator core supports, or making extensive body mods, or making our own uprights, or stuff like that.

Hope that helps!

jp

ps. Ride? For sure!

[Gitter Dun]

You paid to much!

110 from repro is probably accurate, factory stuff is a bit heavier.

I dont honestly think you want to know what I paid, and I'm not sure what you mean by factory and repro. I bought mine from the same manufacturer you did,"AMD".

[oestek]

Thanks John, I was thinking a full custom deal, but raising a stocker to rocker height is a simple (i.e. not complex) way to do it. Good move. A driveway wrench could pull that off, rather than create a whole floor from scratch. I'll check out the article!

BTW, the space shuttle has minimal fab compared to Prodigy or II Much!

I think it will be great to show how to adapt these systems in a smart manner. We'll all appreciate you guys going through the process and giving the rest of us the details so it's easier for everyone else. With this kind of info, these cars can be built by regular guys (with $) who don't have to figure it all out by themselves. :twothumbs

[ProdigyCustoms]

Right, you could have got a nice Pro Touring member discount on the AMD stuff was all I was saying.

As for weight reduction. The factory fenders weigh more then repros, factory hood weighs more then repro, and so on.

[dhutton]

Sticky status with just a rusted out shell and a rendering? That's just a little UNFAIR...

[Gitter Dun]

Here's the weight savings breakdown:

Part Steel Aluminum
2" Cowl Hood 66 23
Fender 26 9
Fender extension 3 2
Header Panel 5.5 3
Lower Valance 12 4
Deck lid 24 11
Front Bumper 10 4
Rear Bumper 12 5

[Steve1968LS2]

I was thinking of the alum front panels for Penny, but I was concerned about color matching to the rest and I certainly don't want to repaint the car...

Very cool project!

[SicMonte]

come on...another camaro? II Much was so cool b/c it wasn't a camaro.

Nice project though...just getting tired of all the camaros.

[ProdigyCustoms]

We had tha conversation. At the end of the day we wanted to do something someone could duplicate with aftermarket parts, and the aftermarket is a plenty for Camaros.

[sik68]

Don't forget aerodynamics! 200mph in a mile is gonna require some aerodynamic improvements (sleekness and anti-lift). Plus, you don't want your windows poppin out!

Care to spill any beans on your ideas for this?

[Gandalf]

you don't want your windows poppin out!

.......or your new, lightweight panels flopping around like a modded honda on the freeway lol! :drive2:

Can't wait to follow the build!
G.

[MrQuick]

phyyewwww Frank, you scared me a bit. I thoughht you were building a 70.


Carry on, and looking forward to some great build pictures and gobbs of tech from John.

Looks like another winner.

Vince

[LSx_88_Ciera]

OH the anticipation is excruciating!

[cheapthrillz]

OH the anticipation is excruciating!

YEA^^^^

You guys haven't finished this thing yet? lol

[parsonsj]

No, it's not finished yet... but it is further along than a rusted out body and a rendering. :)

jp

[DJW32]

Cool project.

Who is the owner of this unfair car?

What supercharger and engine combo are you going to use to get 1100 HP to the rear wheels? I would imagine this will be an alum. motor in the 400ci range, right? I have never seen the Harrop superchager break the 1k Hp mark.

What about the suspension? I saw that you are using some AME products in the build...3 link, 4 link?

I look forward to watching this car come together.

[parsonsj]

Frank and I jointly own the car. There is no "customer" per se. The supercharger is a Kenne Bell 3.6L, and Jim Bell believes the 1100 hp figure is conservative. More details on the rest of the engine will come at a later time.


What about the suspension? I saw that you are using some AME products in the build...3 link, 4 link?Yes. :) Sorry, I'm not being coy. We'll show you all that very soon. We just need to get some photos together.

jp

[Samckitt]

Cool, can't wait see this unfold.

[JEFFTATE]

I'm glad I've waited all this time to restore my car...
Now, I'm getting more ideas and inspiration...
I want to move to Florida and get a job at Prodigy , and sleep on a cot , and sweep floors...

I like the " starter body" , it looks like one I used to own ...

[John Wright]

JP, Frank,
When will the first magazine hit the shelves regarding this?....sounds like a really neat project.

Will be watching and reading to see how you guys pull off all of this in so many facets of performance.

[Vicinity]

This sounds really awesome, I can't wait to hear more.

[parsonsj]

When will the first magazine hit the shelves regarding this?The press release is in the June issue of Super Chevy which is on newsstands starting today. I haven't seen it myself yet. I gotta get away from my desk and go pick up a few copies.

jp

[98ssnova]

It's UNFAIR that I can't see the pics at work!!

Soon Ty Soon and were are supposed to be gaing access to FB and myspace i believe so i dont hink the bann will be much longer.

[nicks67camaro]

Sweet. Can't wait to see this shape up.

[tazzz25906112]

Congratulations Frank the build sounds awesome and I know you'll knock it out of the park.....

[RS_Customs]

It's going to be good! Alot of good R and D there! Should be a fun car.

Robert

[Mkelcy]

We are building a car to run with the best on the road coarse, autocross, Run 8s in the quarter mile and 200MPH + at the Maxton mile, all in a package capable of doing Power Tour and grab groceries.

Those are impressive accomplishments, congratulations!

[Steve1968LS2]

8s in the quarter will be the toughest part.. 8s are exponetially harder than 9s.. :)

That trans will you be running?

[parsonsj]

8s in the quarter will be the toughest part.. 8s are exponetially harder than 9s.. I agree. I told Frank we better get a few clutches ready... running an 8.99 might burn some up.

The tranny is up in the air. We want to run the new M-800 from McLeod, but it may not be ready in time. We are working on a backup plan.

jp

[Vegas69]

Running a 8.99 is tough. Making it do it and be a reasonable street car is even tougher. Walking the line between race and cruiser is not an easy one and I bet you guys struggle with that over and over. I know I have. I'll be very interested to see if you can keep that car docile enough to really be pro-touring.

[Bryce]

Frank,

How will you address all the safety concerns between the different organizations.

[parsonsj]

Running a 8.99 is tough. Making it do it and be a reasonable street car is even tougher. Walking the line between race and cruiser is not an easy one and I bet you guys struggle with that over and over.Very true. The thing to remember is that the car will have two tunes: one on race gas and 22 psi to get 1100 hp, and another on pump gas and 7 or 8 psi and 700 hp. The 700 hp version is the cruiser/autocross/road racer. The 1100 hp monster is for going 8s and 200mph.

Not only will the engine have two distinct modes, but the suspension will too.

jp

[parsonsj]

How will you address all the safety concerns between the different organizations?Great question. We don't have it all figured out yet, but the NASA rules seem fairly reasonable, as long as "standard" NHRA approaches to a roll cage are followed, and 1.75 tube is used (for a 3000-3500 lb. car). We are also consulting with some of the best racing safety folks in the business (remember the team of engineers that are helping), and hope to get a reasonable solution for that. A HANS device will very likely be a part of the 8.99 and 200 mph setups.

jp

[Vegas69]

Yep, but everything will have to be engineered for worst case scenario. Things you can get away with at 700 hp won't last 10 minutes at 1100. It's hard enough at 700 to make it happen. Things that can handle 1100 hp reliably may just compromise that cruise to dinner. I'm not sure I'd want to be in your shoes right now. I see lot's of head scratching. It's going to be fun to watch!! Best of luck to you guys.

[parsonsj]

I'm not sure I'd want to be in your shoes right now. I see lot's of head scratching. A wise man once told me, "Never say 'Watch this' before attempting an act of skill". Oh well. :pat:

[Vegas69]

:lmao:No kidding....

[Richio1]

Fantastic project...just got my magazine this afternoon and was excited when I saw the story...cant wait to watch it play out.

[Steve1968LS2]

I agree. I told Frank we better get a few clutches ready... running an 8.99 might burn some up.

The tranny is up in the air. We want to run the new M-800 from McLeod, but it may not be ready in time. We are working on a backup plan.

jp

The problem isn't that it will just have to handle 1100 hp and most likely 1000 tq but that it will have to handle the shock of an 8 second launch.. on sticky tires.. that's brutal on a manual trans car.

Gonna be a fun project for sure.. and the challenge will just make it that much more so.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Yep, but everything will have to be engineered for worst case scenario. Things you can get away with at 700 hp won't last 10 minutes at 1100. It's hard enough at 700 to make it happen. Things that can handle 1100 hp reliably may just compromise that cruise to dinner. I'm not sure I'd want to be in your shoes right now. I see lot's of head scratching. It's going to be fun to watch!! Best of luck to you guys.

Yes we will be scrathing our heads on stuff like traction control and antilock brakes, and a few other tricks we have no discussed. Although at this stage we have all ready scratch our scalps in to dandruff and now are building.

Keep in mind we will only be at 1100HP for 8 seconds on the quarter and less then 30 seconds in the mile!

Actually the engine will be fairly straight forward. Once tuned for 700HP to 750HP street / AC / RC power, we simply tune farther up the MAP for more boost from the blower on the little pulley. And all that extra tuning is at WOT tuning which is fairly simple. The motor will be docile. We are going to let the blower do the work. The compression will be low, 8.5:1 to 9:1, and the camshaft will be docile, probably in the high [email protected] range with a 116 LC for great low end torque, will have no overlap at 1800 RPM cruise and blowers just LOVE wide LCs. The blower will just bypass at 1800 RPMs 5th gear cruise. So I truely expect this to be like every other blower / turbo car I ever did and be a real prim and proper lady cruising. And a real sl_t when it gets on the pipe!

Transmission will be tricky. We may break a few trans if we cannot get the M800 before drag racing. If we can not get a M800 in time we will probably use a Transzilla which should handle a few runs anyway. Transzilla surely will handle NON sticky tire action as the tires will give before the transmission. Ultimatly we know the M800 can handle things, but may not be ready for Optima. We won't be on Drag Radials at Optima anyway.

When we do drag race. I will leave a little soft on the drag strip runs. Run it like a turbo car. Run it like the Vipers. Leave a little easy and go out the back door like a Mother!

HP to weight and RPM says she will run 157.1MPH in the 1/4 in 4th gear at only 6600RPMs, PLENTY for 8s. 148MPH will get you in the 8s.

For reference, my street racer Just Bring it, has gone low 9s at 143MPH and makes only 714RWHP at the tires at 3400LBS! Project Unfair will be 400LBS lighter and 250HP more the Just Bring It car. 400LBS is 4/10ths, 250HP is a couple more tenths.

Getting the power to the ground is the biggest issue in a Pro Touring suspension. We have that figured out! It WILL hook better then my ladder bar equipped street racer! It will hook like a Pro Stocker I gurantee!

Have a little fun and go here and punch in 3250LBS (including me in it) and just use 1000HP and look at the ET. Then look carefully at the 157 MPH

http://www.wallaceracing.com/et-hp-mph.php

Now go here and put in 28" tire, Transmission ratio is 1:1 for 4th gear, and enter 3.50 gear. And pay attention to the MPH at 6500RPM. 155MPH Matches the estimated ET MPH almost perfect. The ET calculator verifies the HP is capable pulling the MPH

http://www.wallaceracing.com/gear-speed.php

Now we are only looking for 8.99, so we have plenty of room to spare.

Wanna run 200MPH, use the same gear-speed calculator and do 28" tire, .75 transmission gear, and 3.50 rear gear. And yes we will have more then enough torque to pull 5th gear.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[MrQuick]

I was wondering where the MR .V GIF was hiding. LOL


vinz

[windsor]

Running a manual trans? wow, now I'm even more skeptical :enguard::fingersx: I'm by no-means rooting against you when I say this.

As you stated, you don't need near that much power to run 8.99 at that weight IF the chassis is sorted as you say it will be. However, that manual trans will, by far, be your biggest hurdle.

Good luck! Will be a fun project to follow.

[NOT A TA]

Anyone already have a PT car with a PARACHUTE? Or will this be the first?

[John Wright]

Wanna run 200MPH, use the same gear-speed calculator and do 28" tire, .75 transmission gear, and 3.50 rear gear. And yes we will have more then enough torque to pull 5th gear.

:6gears: ...so where could you be (mph) in the top end of sixth gear?.... :seizure:.......possibly stretch it's legs @ Bonneville too?...... :evil:

[twosaturns]

really seems like a good application for an auto trans w/ paddle shifters, just sayin'.

[CraigMorrison]

I can't wait to see what sort of suspension you are going to run. You are asking for quite a bit!

[dhutton]

I can't wait to see what sort of suspension you are going to run. You are asking for quite a bit!

I thought John said it was yours? Maybe someone forgot to tell you...

[454bug]

really seems like a good application for an auto trans w/ paddle shifters, just sayin'.

I was thinking the same thing... I couldn't imagine a better project than this to prove you can make a nice PT car with an automatic transmission.

One of the new 6-speed auto's would probably work nicely with a paddle shifter...

AWESOME PROJECT GUYS!!!

I couldn't imagine a better two guys to accomplish all these goals!

[CraigMorrison]

I thought John said it was yours? Maybe someone forgot to tell you...

It is, and it's an all new setup too!

[ProdigyCustoms]

I can't wait to see what sort of suspension you are going to run. You are asking for quite a bit!

Shhh! This is skunk works!

Craig, Wait till your dad finds out what you have done!

[ProdigyCustoms]

Running a manual trans? wow, now I'm even more skeptical :enguard::fingersx: I'm by no-means rooting against you when I say this.

As you stated, you don't need near that much power to run 8.99 at that weight IF the chassis is sorted as you say it will be. However, that manual trans will, by far, be your biggest hurdle.

Good luck! Will be a fun project to follow.

If I cannot shift I might find a little girl to drive it!

Wonder who I could get? Need someone local?

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXuI8EkVmDI

[T_Raven]

I love to see people pushing the boundaries in our hobby. Can't wait to see this suspension set up you came up with.

[sik68]

Just a guess, but it's gotta be IRS...you heard it here first.

[MarkM66]

Kevin,

The first article will show you how we raised the floor. You start by calling Advance Metal Direct and getting one of their full floors. Then you cut the old floor out, and then install the new floor all the way up on the rocker panels. You'll need to make some small simple pieces of metal to fill a few gaps, but you can get everything you need at Home Depot. Not something a guy can do in his driveway, but something a competent body or build shop can do... it's no more difficult to do than installing mini-tubs.

Dual mode suspension: call Frank. AME (Art Morrison Enterprises) developed it, and they are gearing up to add it to their catalog.

ABS: Uses mostly GM parts, and AME has a working version. We'll show you how in Super Chevy. :)

I guess what Frank means is minimal fab compared to II Much or Prodigy. You'll be able to buy the parts from vendors and install them in "traditional" ways. We won't be making custom floors, radiator core supports, or making extensive body mods, or making our own uprights, or stuff like that.

Hope that helps!

jp

ps. Ride? For sure!

So will the subframe then bolt to the raised floor?

Engine to hood clearance issues?

[parsonsj]

Yes, the subframe bolts to the floor as usual, and sub-frame connectors, transmission crossmembers, etc. are all in the usual places.

Downside is hood clearance, headroom in the cabin, and reduced floor to pedal clearance. We're already doing custom headers (a II Much Fabrication specialty, it seems, lol), so that's no more work than usual.

jp

[Rod]

ummm?? OK, lets go

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/04/Apopcorn-1.gif

[trapin]

Exactly how far are you raising the floor? When you say "top of rocker" are you talking about the top of flange (B Line) or just below that (R Line...which would be the intersection of the flange and the top surface of the rocker)? I wish I could draw pictures on this damn thing to better ask this question.

If it's top of flange than this project will be very interesting for me from a Designers perspective. I'll be most interested in seeing how the structure in that area is redesigned in regards to body closures, etc.

Quite a daunting project to say the least. I almost feel stressed out just thinking about it. LOL!

[parsonsj]

Tony, good question. Maybe Frank has a photo he might be able to share...

[nicks67camaro]

With raising the floor I would be curious to see the seat / bracket combo. I'm 6" and with my Corbeau seats I had to cut the sliders down to get clearance needed.

[Chad-1stGen]

Yeah the floor raising means shorter guys only... well that and uncomfortable taller guys.

[parsonsj]

I would be curious to see the seat / bracket combo.We'll show you that, along with a pedal solution.

[parsonsj]

Yeah the floor raising means shorter guys only... I respectfully disagree, but I will agree its a problem we'll need to solve. We need to get 6 footers (both Frank and I were 6' tall as younger men) in there with helmets. And we're too old to be uncomfortable while driving. :) Stay tuned!

jp

[Finch]

Lovin this....let me know if you need a tester to sort the car out:yeah:

[jackfrost]

I'm going to say it's UNFAIR cuz it's not my car! :razz:

why not use a full frame at this point?

[twosaturns]

I respectfully disagree, but I will agree its a problem we'll need to solve. We need to get 6 footers (both Frank and I were 6' tall as younger men) in there with helmets. And we're too old to be uncomfortable while driving. :) Stay tuned!

jp
carbon fiber framed seats w/ neoprene padding.

[parsonsj]

why not use a full frame at this point?We considered it. We didn't go that route because one of the design criteria was to provide a blueprint for other enthusiasts to build something similar. Once you go full frame, you need a custom floor, trunk, rear wheel housings, etc. We thought that would be beyond what reasonable people consider "normal" mods to a car. We decided that we would stay with a front sub-frame, factory floor, mini-tubbed type approach.

jp

[dipren443]

John,

Are you or Frank going to post any pics in here?

Nick

[dhutton]

John,

Are you or Frank going to post any pics in here?

Nick

This sticky is a big ol teaser. I'm already dreaming of these chassis mods for my 68 Firebird and I've only got a few clues of what is involved... :yum:

[CraigMorrison]

I was going to post some pics of that rear subframe, but then remembered that it was shipped out while we were in Del Mar. Besides, probably dont need to let the cat out of the bag yet....

[6'9"Witha69]

Yeah the floor raising means shorter guys only... well that and uncomfortable taller guys.
Great, I'm hosed. Guess I won't be able to take it for a spin!

[MoparCar]

I was going to post some pics of that rear subframe, but then remembered that it was shipped out while we were in Del Mar. Besides, probably dont need to let the cat out of the bag yet....

Any chance this "secret" rear suspension is universally adaptable and not another Camaro only item? Mopars could use a little attention. Dozens of Chevy/Ford solutions and hardly nothing on the higher end for Mopars. Please......:)

This is going to be a great build!

[ProdigyCustoms]

I was going to post some pics of that rear subframe, but then remembered that it was shipped out while we were in Del Mar. Besides, probably dont need to let the cat out of the bag yet....

We will make them beg Craig!

[ProdigyCustoms]

Any chance this "secret" rear suspension is universally adaptable and not another Camaro only item? Mopars could use a little attention. Dozens of Chevy/Ford solutions and hardly nothing on the higher end for Mopars. Please......:)

This is going to be a great build!

Yes!

[ProdigyCustoms]

OK, we are teasing on a couple things and on others we simply are bound to magazine comitments. So I cannot post the entire article. But Super Chevy does know I am posting tidbits and raising insterest in the magazine articles.

I have to be careful with pics because they are part of of the Super Chevy Tech Articles

But here is a stock location floor picture and a raised floor picture. It was really pretty simple and only requred a couple closeouts to fully attach

The full story will be out in about 45 days.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
Layed in at stock height

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
Instaled 1 1/2" higher

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
Here is one of the closeouts required

[69fbodyproject]

How are you doing the ABS?? I am researching and trying to figure out how to make it work in my build. I have some ideas but I am not 100% sure.

[ProdigyCustoms]

How are you doing the ABS?? I am researching and trying to figure out how to make it work in my build. I have some ideas but I am not 100% sure.

John is handling the ABS, but not sure if we can disclose that just yet.

[MoparCar]

Yes!

Awesome. Universal and adaptable to a Mopar is great!
Any ETA on the suspension details? Or is this part of the non-disclosure agreement?

[ProdigyCustoms]

Or is this part of the non-disclosure agreement?

Yes, just for a couple more days.

[ErikLS2]

If you're goin that far, why not add yaw rate and steering angle sensors and you'll have a complete vehicle stability control system?
(With an "OFF" button of course).

Can't wait to see this come together.

Looks like the prices are going up at Prodigy $$$$$ LOL

[parsonsj]

why not add yaw rate and steering angle sensors and you'll have a complete vehicle stability control system?Why not indeed? :)

[Bjkadron]

Just a guess, but it's gotta be IRS...

I can't see a irs being A "no compromise drag setup" no matter what you do to it.

And amazing project guys! Not that I really needed another mag to subscribe to.. I CAN'T WAIT TO SEE MORE! Actually I can... But I don't like the idea.

[ProdigyCustoms]

I can't see a irs being A "no compromise drag setup" no matter what you do to it.
.

Tell ya what, those 8 second Vipers and Corvette's hook pretty damn good!

[MrQuick]

teezer, thanks for the blue eyes frank, thanks a lot. LOL

Aren't rust buckets so much better after blasting?
vince

[MrQuick]

Just a guess, but it's gotta be IRS...you heard it here first.
think "34 link".

:1st:

vince

[Bad94]

We will make them beg Craig!


Is it a rear clip, that has a 3 link mount and a 4 link mount? That way its a super easy suspension change for event to event?

Also frank, what are you doing for brakes? Or are you running 18" drag wheels?

[Bjkadron]

Tell ya what, those 8 second Vipers and Corvette's hook pretty damn good!

OOOOOOoooo! Did you just give something up? or were just saying?

Well anyway since you waid "A true no compromise G machine set up"
You did open the door to the possibility of a irs. However...

you also promised us " It WILL hook better then my ladder bar equipped street racer! It will hook like a Pro Stocker I gurantee!"

and "a true no compromise drag race set up."

And I'm not saying it couldn't be done with an irs and adjustable mounting points on an multilink package. But they are not good for a package that can be installed in a variety of different vehicles. Also designing a irs with a lot of anti-squat is really hard to do without messing other stuff up. And you can get way more A/S out of a solid axle..
On the other hand it is har to get a "no compromise" solid axle handling setup without Decoupling links is pretty hard... and they are very application specific as well.

My guess is something with radically adjustable geometry. Either way you go.

(sorry if this is spelled badly.. I couldn't find spellcheck and am not on firefox.)

[ProdigyCustoms]

You are oh so close but I think it is different then your thinking.

[JohnUlaszek]

Frank,
Did the titanium leaf springs get delivered yet?

[BonzoHansen]

think "34 link".that's a lot of links.

[Bjkadron]

You are oh so close but I think it is different then your thinking.

Shucks! How close? Do I get to see the pictures first? :idea:Will you or the Morrisons hire me If I figure it out? I need a summer job anyway!

[Doug1]

John is handling the ABS, but not sure if we can disclose that just yet.

Frank,

We need to talk about adding that to my project! LOL

I think I put my car in there at the wrong time since it isn't going to be too far behind this one time wise... Now I am going so see all kinds of things I suddenly "GOTTA HAVE". Now that is "kinda UNFAIR..." to my budget.:)

[Bryce]

dedion tube?

[ProdigyCustoms]

I got a few PMs with technical questions and people wanting to buy ABS. I also got a couple PM's from customers with projects in Prodigy Customs shop wanting to add ABS to their project.

On the subject of Anti lock brakes, we are not teasing or protecting a article on this one. Right now we have to stay quite for a few reasons

(1) John, one of the largest OEM companies in the world, and the engineer team are all working on it.

(2) We do not want to inundate that company with calls for something that does not exist in kit form.

(3) We have to finish integration into our system ourselves

(4) Prodigy Customs will have ABS packages available.

(5) One member of our engineer team already has a working unit, but has JUST started testing, and he does NOT want to get inundated with calls.

(6) We will tell you here first soon as we have all the information.

[windsor]

If I cannot shift I might find a little girl to drive it!

Wonder who I could get? Need someone local?

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXuI8EkVmDI

Yep, she's a pretty darn good driver! That tranny is stock, too.

Not saying it can't be done, but I feel it'll be your biggest hurdle for that 8-sec slip!

[ProdigyCustoms]

Those Supras are amazing. Stock transmissions and rears and go 8s!

We won't need her to drive it, just thought I would show a little Playboy Bunny can do it, so the pressure is on me now, LOL!

[brrymnvette]

This is going to be awesome. I've been surprised noone has done an ABS retrofit yet and made it easy. Don't see how it's that hard.

But this thread is a mojor tease. WE NEED PICS! Our ADD is on overdrive!

[T_Raven]

Why the heck would anyone want ABS? Traction control I can see but just ABS sounds silly

[Vegas69]

Why the heck would anyone want ABS? Traction control I can see but just ABS sounds silly
Easy, to get max braking out of every wheel at the same time.

[parsonsj]

ABS allows you to turn with max effort braking. It's a safer braking system even if it only engages in panic situations.

jp

[silver69camaro]

Why the heck would anyone want ABS? Traction control I can see but just ABS sounds silly

Ever flat-spotted a tire?

[budweasel]

Having to wait for the next details...UNFAIR

Checking this thread every couple of hours when I should be sending out resumes...UNFAIR

Frank and John sharing their project with us...COMPLETELY AWESOME

Thank you so much for taking time to roll out this product line in such a fun way.

[John Wright]

Easy, to get max braking out of every wheel at the same time.
.....and that happens even when all four tires are loaded unevenly.


I guess that I need to get use to the ABS doing it's job...but it sure is unnerving and makes me let pressure off the pedal when it feels like I have locked up a wheel (ice mode, is what I've heard it called).

Old habits die hard, so I have to relearn how to threshold brake using the ABS.

It just feels all wrong when it's doing it's job...LOL

[1968]

I would like to see a triangulated 4-link with a lot of adjustment like a drag racing 4-link.

[MrQuick]

This is going to be awesome. I've been surprised noone has done an ABS retrofit yet and made it easy. Don't see how it's that hard.


engineering alone to make a universal kit is a huge hurdle plus I'd hate to see that product liability insurance quagmire one would face.

vince

[Bjkadron]

dedion tube?

In a really high HP application?

[Bryce]

In a really high HP application?

Im not saying its practical. But it does provide the benefits of IRS with solid axle. Not very elegant, its heavy and complicated.

I would still vote 3-link. Take a look at what new mustangs can do and that suspension is full of compromises. The cobra jet mustangs with 700hp are running in the 9s. And I think there is enough proof that they handle ok on road courses. Not sure about autocross.

So a 3 link with ultimate adjustablity. At least this is what I am doing to obtain similar goals with my car.

But drag racing will have different requirements from the front suspension. Softer springs. Different shock settings. More travel. no sway bar. Rear suspension should be able to handle at least a 30" tall drag slick if not taller.

What kind of 60 foot times do you need to run to get the car into the 8s?

[John Wright]

What kind of 60 foot times do you need to run to get the car into the 8s?not sure but many of the turbo cars are fairly easy on parts during the launch, so I don't know what their numbers look like in the first 60 feet....they leave kinda lazy and then really pour it on as the boost builds towards the big end of the track.

[6'9"Witha69]

Ever flat-spotted a tire?
Hollywood has!

That needs to become a catch phrase!

[MrQuick]

thats how you explain that this is the place to be. The Hollywood flat spot! LOL

A 1.7 60 foot would be easy on parts right?

Vince

[windsor]

not sure but many of the turbo cars are fairly easy on parts during the launch, so I don't know what their numbers look like in the first 60 feet....they leave kinda lazy and then really pour it on as the boost builds towards the big end of the track.

Turbo cars definitely do it all on the big end.

[Ripper]

How are you going to compensate for different tires, CGH etc when selling a "ABS-kits"? Seems like most of the manufactors ABS-algorithm is quite complex and not very easy to customize...

Bosch currently have an aftermarket system for appr. 6000 EUR or so.

[jknight16]

I would like to see a triangulated 4-link with a lot of adjustment like a drag racing 4-link.

Check out the Alston Chassisworks G-link (not the G-bar). It has a ton of adjustability. Call Frank, he knows all about 'em.

[1968]

I know about the G-link but can it handle the kind of horsepower that is being discussed in this thread. Im not sure it can. I think something like Morrison's tri 4-link with good solid frame rails with adjustability would be better.

[Bjkadron]

Im not saying its practical. But it does provide the benefits of IRS with solid axle. Not very elegant, its heavy and complicated.

I would still vote 3-link. Take a look at what new mustangs can do and that suspension is full of compromises. The cobra jet mustangs with 700hp are running in the 9s. And I think there is enough proof that they handle ok on road courses. Not sure about autocross.

I would vote the same.. And even the magazines that are usually trashing the solid axle cars were praising the mustang with the FRPP handling pack. I can't see any downsides for the auto-x.


So a 3 link with ultimate adjustablity. At least this is what I am doing to obtain similar goals with my car.

Hey! Me to! and you should see what me and this other guy are cooking up for the front! :seizure:


But drag racing will have different requirements from the front suspension. Softer springs. Different shock settings. More travel. no sway bar. Rear suspension should be able to handle at least a 30" tall drag slick if not taller.

What kind of 60 foot times do you need to run to get the car into the 8s?

That is what I was thinking.. they will almost have to change/ disconnect parts to get it right. But I don't have any qualms with that. I just wouldn't call it "the same set-up".

But it doesn't look they are going to tell us any time soon!

[CraigMorrison]

I think something like Morrison's tri 4-link with good solid frame rails with adjustability would be better.

Frank and I talked about this, but..........

[Bjkadron]

Another reason I think it is a solid axle is the wheelie bars... you get a lot more out of them with a solid axle.


*Side not* does anyone else feel gyped that we are now on page 8 and have only a couple of pics and almost no solid facts? haha! Still it is kinda fun to guess and let the imaginations run wild!

[454bug]

But drag racing will have different requirements from the front suspension. Softer springs. Different shock settings. More travel. no sway bar. Rear suspension should be able to handle at least a 30" tall drag slick if not taller.

If you build the front suspension for "dual purpose" from the jump-start you really don't have to ever swap out any parts... There are different philosophies/combinations to have a car that can perform on a road course/autocross. One of those type setups will work perfectly well with a drag setup. You have to build your setup as a soft spring/big sway bar arrangement. Between the big sway bars and the dual-adjustable shocks you can dial in both setups... one for road racing/autocrossing and another for drag racing. The larger "travel" you would like to have for your drag shocks is easily handled as well... you start with a longer travel shock that suits the drag racing scenario and you use travel-limiting "pucks" for the road racing/autocrossing. If your car is properly sorted out and launches STRAIGHT you DON'T have to remove or disconnect your sway bar... If your car launches properly you sway bar won't affect the launch if the binding is kept to a minimum... delrin bushings and heim joints work wonders for this if there is no points that bind up. The un-hooking of the sway bar is an old-school wive's-tale. With no binding and a loose rebound setting, rapid upward front end travel causing proper weight transfer is accomplished.

This is how we're setting up my car's front end. It will be "DUAL-PURPOSE" with the insertion of a few travel-limiting pucks and a quick adjustment of the rebound and compression settings...


What kind of 60 foot times do you need to run to get the car into the 8s?

According to the calculators that Frank was mentioning they are showing a 1.20-1.25 second 60' time for a NON-turbo car with a more LINEAR power curve... These guys are using a Supercharger NOT a turbo. It will be making power from idle-up! I don't think it will have as much top end boost charge as a turbo car... probably more linear across the board.


not sure but many of the turbo cars are fairly easy on parts during the launch, so I don't know what their numbers look like in the first 60 feet....they leave kinda lazy and then really pour it on as the boost builds towards the big end of the track.


Turbo cars definitely do it all on the big end.

This is a Supercharger car, not a turbo car...

[Bjkadron]

If you build the front suspension for "dual purpose" from the jump-start you really don't have to ever swap out any parts... There are different philosophies/combinations to have a car that can perform on a road course/autocross. One of those type setups will work perfectly well with a drag setup. You have to build your setup as a soft spring/big sway bar arrangement. Between the big sway bars and the dual-adjustable shocks you can dial in both setups... one for road racing/autocrossing and another for drag racing. The larger "travel" you would like to have for your drag shocks is easily handled as well... you start with a longer travel shock that suits the drag racing scenario and you use travel-limiting "pucks" for the road racing/autocrossing. If your car is properly sorted out and launches STRAIGHT you DON'T have to remove or disconnect your sway bar... If you car launches properly you sway bar won't affect the launch if the binding is kept to a minimum... delrin bushing and heim joints work wonders for this if there is no points that bind up. The un-hooking of the sway bar is an old-school wive's-tale. This is how we are setting up my car's front end. It will be "DUAL-PURPOSE" with the insertion of a few travel-limiting pucks and a quick adjustment of the rebound and compression settings...


True true.. That is similar to what I'm doing as well.



According to the calculators that Frank was mentioning they are showing a 1.20-1.25 second 60' time for a NON-turbo car with a more LINEAR power curve... These guys are using a Supercharger NOT a turbo. It will be making power from idle-up! I don't think it will have as much top end boost charge as a turbo car... probably more linear across the board.

This is a Supercharger car, not a turbo car...

Yeah but he said he was going to launch it soft like a turbo car then rely on the power to get the ET.

[CraigMorrison]

Bosch currently have an aftermarket system for appr. 6000 EUR or so.

We had a great chat with the head of Bosch motorsports about this. They absolutely say is isn't to be used for the street - mainly about liability concerns, but also they had a test car that had some glitches and lost ALL braking!! Something you don't really want with a steet car.

[454bug]

Yeah but he said he was going to launch it soft like a turbo car then rely on the power to get the ET.

That's why the calculations using 3,250# and 1,000rwhp nets you a 8.63 @ 155mph... :)

Frank wants a little "cushion" on the times so he CAN baby it out of the hole and STILL reach their goal of 8.99 seconds!!

They are NOT looking for 8.98 seconds... They are looking for 8.99!! :naughty: That's all! Not a hundredth more! Just as long as it breaks 8.99 they're in the 8's!!! :headbang:

[454bug]

they had a test car that had some glitches and lost ALL braking!! Something you don't really want with a steet car.

I REALLY DON'T THINK I'D LIKE THAT WITH A RACE CAR EITHER!!! :drive2:

[parsonsj]

I will admit to looking at the Bosch setup for the ABS. But the price is too high for mortal men, and one of the design criteria for this car is that others can duplicate it. An $8000 ABS setup wouldn't be right.

So no, that's not it. :)

jp

[Bryce]

hte reason I say remove the sway bar is to remove weight on the front end and typical sway bars limit the amount of droop of the front suspension.

[windsor]

This is a Supercharger car, not a turbo car...

oh yeah...oops!

[ryeguy2006a]

I can't believe you are doing this project in 45 days!! I have had my project for about 5 years now and it's still not done.

[67 ls1 vert]

who is doing a project in 45 days? Did I miss something?

I thought I saw over the next year???

[Gitter Dun]

I can't believe you are doing this project in 45 days!! I have had my project for about 5 years now and it's still not done.

45 DAYS!!! HOLY SH%#!! All I can say is I am looking forward to seeing it on the road course. West Coast side preferably, not through cones, and an open event for all to have the opportunity to join in!!
:enguard:

[DaviRotten]

Is the end result unfair or the starting point for the build?

[Gitter Dun]

45 DAYS!!! HOLY SH%#!! All I can say is I am looking forward to seeing it on the road course. West Coast side preferably, not through cones, and an open event for all to have the opportunity to join in!!
:enguard:

I may have to hold off on teardown for paint, dont want to miss an opportunity to come out and play, lol

[ProdigyCustoms]

No one said 45 days, more like 8 months or so. magazine articles will stretch over 12 to 14 issues.

[Gitter Dun]

No one said 45 days, more like 8 months or so. magazine articles will stretch over 12 to 14 issues.

Cool, Thanks Frank, now I can paint my car, lol

[72 chevelle]

Im not saying its practical. But it does provide the benefits of IRS with solid axle. Not very elegant, its heavy and complicated.

I would still vote 3-link. Take a look at what new mustangs can do and that suspension is full of compromises. The cobra jet mustangs with 700hp are running in the 9s. And I think there is enough proof that they handle ok on road courses. Not sure about autocross.

So a 3 link with ultimate adjustablity. At least this is what I am doing to obtain similar goals with my car.

But drag racing will have different requirements from the front suspension. Softer springs. Different shock settings. More travel. no sway bar. Rear suspension should be able to handle at least a 30" tall drag slick if not taller.

What kind of 60 foot times do you need to run to get the car into the 8s?frank would have to pull low 1.30s 60 ft times to roll out the back door w/ 8.90s . w/ 3000 plus driver and 1100 hp and a good drag dot tire it can very easly happen . frank knows his way down 1320 ft tracks

[joemac]

Tell ya what, those 8 second Vipers and Corvette's hook pretty damn good!

Subscribing

This sounds like some awful heavy hinting around to me.

I can say the irs cobras are well into the 9's now and doing it with not much more than a good set of axles. I haven't heard any in the 8's yet but I wouldn't be surprised if they already are.

[ProdigyCustoms]

You are oh so close but I think it is different then your thinking.

FYI, I never said who I was talking to.

We are only a few hours away now boys!

[ProdigyCustoms]

Subscribing

This sounds like some awful heavy hinting around to me.

.

Or could just be a statement?

Just a few more hours.

[jy211]

Just a few more hours.

Cool. Then I can finally get a hold of you! Your on rock star status...:firefire::bananna2:

[Steve1968LS2]

No one said 45 days, more like 8 months or so. magazine articles will stretch over 12 to 14 issues.

See how interweb rumors start.. pretty soon it would have been 4.5 days.. ;)

[John Wright]

See how interweb rumors start.. pretty soon it would have been 4.5 days.. ;)Hahaha....I almost posted 4-5 days just to hurry the deadline along...LOL

[stealth71]

Sweet project can't wait to see how it turns out. Might have to swing by and see if I can look under the covers.

[preston]

Congrats on the new project. AFter reading the car name and all the hype though I actually expected a car that was going to push the envelope a bit more rather than staying in the bolt on universe. I understand your market though.

Personally I think raising the floors is the wrong direction to go, I"m always surprised more people don't do what I did (obviously I'm not the first and last, Mustang in last month's Hot Rod for example) and running the exhaust through fabricated rockers. This allows you to LOWER the floor and the seat and therefore the roof and the entire car body 1-3". No ergonomic problems either.

Interested in how the Whipples handle the road course. Now I know the FGT and ZR1 and Cobra as well as the Big Mercs are all using PD blowers, but I also seem to hear they have heat induced power loss after lapping, more so than the turbo and super cars. I"m guessing a lot of that is the inability to fit a big enough heat exchanger under the blower.

Love to see some new IRS options for PT too. That is one of my big regrets on the car, I was planning on using some Dutchman and C6 parts to build a 9" based custom IRS, but shied away.

What I'm really really interested in is aftermarket ABS and some more TC options. right now Racelogic or an expen$ive MOTEC ECU are really the only options I've seen for TC.

The alum weights above look good except for the fender. How does a fender go from 26 to 9 lbs ? Alum parts can really only be about 50% lighter in a decent thickness, and you usually save a few lbs by removing some of the extraneous bracketry or bracing, but 9 lb alum fender I don't believe it. And this is coming from someone who was 50% of the way to building hand formed alum fenders for a '67 Mustang. I gave up when I saw the mountain of work ahead to finish them and realized they were only saving me 19 lbs ->11 lbs=8 lbs each.

--- on edit
I re-read this post and didn't mean to come across sounding negative. I think we all like to ponder the different parts of projects and what we like and don't like. This thing should be rad - try and get that engine setback as far as you dare !

[customshop]

Great looking project. I will have to keep in touch. Thanks for the help with the whels and brake on our project. got it wrapped up today for him. Turned out really nice. Good Luck again. you can see pics of it on my site. www.customshop.org

[xxxturbo6]

Congrats on the new project. AFter reading the car name and all the hype though I actually expected a car that was going to push the envelope a bit more rather than staying in the bolt on universe. I understand your market though.

Personally I think raising the floors is the wrong direction to go, I"m always surprised more people don't do what I did (obviously I'm not the first and last, Mustang in last month's Hot Rod for example) and running the exhaust through fabricated rockers. This allows you to LOWER the floor and the seat and therefore the roof and the entire car body 1-3". No ergonomic problems either.

Interested in how the Whipples handle the road course. Now I know the FGT and ZR1 and Cobra as well as the Big Mercs are all using PD blowers, but I also seem to hear they have heat induced power loss after lapping, more so than the turbo and super cars. I"m guessing a lot of that is the inability to fit a big enough heat exchanger under the blower.

Love to see some new IRS options for PT too. That is one of my big regrets on the car, I was planning on using some Dutchman and C6 parts to build a 9" based custom IRS, but shied away.

What I'm really really interested in is aftermarket ABS and some more TC options. right now Racelogic or an expen$ive MOTEC ECU are really the only options I've seen for TC.

The alum weights above look good except for the fender. How does a fender go from 26 to 9 lbs ? Alum parts can really only be about 50% lighter in a decent thickness, and you usually save a few lbs by removing some of the extraneous bracketry or bracing, but 9 lb alum fender I don't believe it. And this is coming from someone who was 50% of the way to building hand formed alum fenders for a '67 Mustang. I gave up when I saw the mountain of work ahead to finish them and realized they were only saving me 19 lbs ->11 lbs=8 lbs each.

--- on edit
I re-read this post and didn't mean to come across sounding negative. I think we all like to ponder the different parts of projects and what we like and don't like. This thing should be rad - try and get that engine setback as far as you dare ! I too thought that lowering the floor thus (lowering the center of gravity) would be better, but I guess it's done just to hide exhaust and other stuff... But in reality it's only an 1-1/2''... Frank does great work and so does John so I would bet this thing will turn out killer...

[MrQuick]

well if you think about, if you raise the floor you can tuck crap up higher thus you can have a lower car with out the lowered problems. might even have room for a full pan.

there is a method to the madness.
Vince

[MrQuick]

FYI, I never said who I was talking to.

We are only a few hours away now boys! haaa haaaa haa
Love it. Your getting good at this Frank..... can we get the web cam up?


Vince

[Gitter Dun]

The alum weights above look good except for the fender. How does a fender go from 26 to 9 lbs ? Alum parts can really only be about 50% lighter in a decent thickness, and you usually save a few lbs by removing some of the extraneous bracketry or bracing, but 9 lb alum fender I don't believe it. And this is coming from someone who was 50% of the way to building hand formed alum fenders for a '67 Mustang. I gave up when I saw the mountain of work ahead to finish them and realized they were only saving me 19 lbs ->11 lbs=8 lbs each

I'm gonna have to defend AMD on this one soley because I'm expecting delivery of their front clip on April 28th.

I will weight fender and post weight then.

Proof's in the Pudding

[ProdigyCustoms]

OK guys, so here it is. The Art Morrison 5 link!

What? Too many bars?

Well what you are looking at is what Mr Quick guessed, a 34 link, or better written a 3 / 4 link! (Remember I never said who I was talking too when I said you're getting pretty close).

That right there is a true no compromise road race 3 link set up when the upper outer bars are removed. That is also a true no compromise Drag Race 4 link (just like a Pro Stocker) when the upper center bar is removed! Quite honestly this is one of those things that is right in front of you no one saw it!

We approached Art and Craig Morrison at SEMA with this idea of building the fastest ALL AROUND Pro Touring car ever including 8 second quarters. Art told me I really should not party so much when I am in Vegas, LOL! So we told the Morrison's of our idea of making the car a "Pro Touring transformer" of sorts. A car with the ability to quickly (few hours) transform from a great autocross / road race car to a great drag car by moving some stuff around and swapping some easy to change Components (Read more later). The idea was for a suspension system with massive adjust ability. Those Morrison's are so damn smart. Craig made my day one morning when he called, GOT IT! A 3 / 4 link! Of coarse I thought immediatly! I could not call Parson's fast enough.

I am sure all the suspension scientist here will agree a properly tuned 3 link is as good as G machine suspension gets. Personally I think it is the best, but that could be argued all day.

And no one can even argue a proper (drag race) parallel 4 link is the absolute best on the drag strip!

So yes guys, it Will work on the road coarse, it WILL hook at the drag strip.

You guys are welcome to ask any questions, I will answer the big ones now.

(1) Will this set up be available to buy? YES! We will have these available SOON! But DO NOT call Prodigy or AME to buy YET! Please give us sometime to get it in the car, look at packaging and minor fabrication.

(2) When will we be ready to take orders? SOON! While we DO NOT need to have this in a running in the car to KNOW it works, We simply have to work out the final fitment and cost. So I can take reservations immediatly and I suspect we can start taking orders in 30 days, but again, PLEASE do not inundate AME or me with phone calls quite yet. Remember you are getting a preview before we should give you a preview.

(3) How much will it cost? AME is still working on that. Keep in mind, Project unfair is a car with a goal, so cost analysis comes AFTER you have the real thing in front of you. The suspension system was done the same way, build it and get it done, look at cost later. Craig and I did discuss some general cost ideas and tragets, and basing it on the current AME rear clip in a Tri 4 bar or 3 link is right around $3600 to $4000 for clip and housing (DEAL), Hopes are to keep this multi link clip and housing set up in the $5000 to $5500 range. But again, all the cost still have to be examined.

(4) Does the car have to be back halfed? NO! the frame rails are molded to fit the original rear floor like AME's other 3 Link and Tri 4 Bar clips. You just drill out your old frame rails and weld these new stronger molded 2 X 3 rails in place. HOWEVER, there is some penetration through the floor where the upper links connect, and there will be some reliefs and closeouts that will have to be fabricated, but this should be very mild fabrication.

(5) How big a tire can this handle? More then a notched factory frame as long as you do not use pre packaged tubs. The outer frame rails are 1" more narrow then the narrowest possible frame width with thinnest factory frame rail notch one can do. And what is so cool is you not only keep a full rail where you normally notch, but you have a stronger rail also. Our drag tires will be 345 / 35 / 18 Drag Radials with a section around 14.5"! So we will be making bigger mini tubs for Unfair.

I will leave it at that for now. So ask any questions

Enjoy

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[fishtail8]

Very cool, I wonder if there would be any difficulty converting a car already set up with a 4 link for the 3 link brackets on the diff and crossmember to accomplish the same?

You're going to set alot of people on their ear's with this one. Look forward to seeing the finished product!

[Bad94]

I really like that set up.

[oestek]

Very interesting! Like the multiple adjustment points for IC tuning on the 4 link.

Does the center upper link mount on the rear axle require a body dimple as well?

What are your exhaust plans?

Nice looking piece, the AME crew does outstanding work.

[ProdigyCustoms]

AFter reading the car name and all the hype though I actually expected a car that was going to push the envelope a bit more rather than staying in the bolt on universe. I understand your market though.

Preston, you obviously have some skills and knowledege. Your car is a badd ass race car. It would be very easy for Prodigy Customs and II Much Fabrication to do a super heavily fabricated, 5000 hour project no other mear mortal could duplicate. Project Prodigy and II Much clearly fall in that category. But for every one person that digs that kind of stuff, there are another 10 people that see it like a Playboy model, great to look at but totally unobtainable. John and I think we can build the best all around Pro Touring car (a street car that races well) with stuff everyone here can buy or fabricate with basic fab skills, without building something unobtainable.



Personally I think raising the floors is the wrong direction to go, I"m always surprised more people don't do what I did (obviously I'm not the first and last, Mustang in last month's Hot Rod for example) and running the exhaust through fabricated rockers. This allows you to LOWER the floor and the seat and therefore the roof and the entire car body 1-3". No ergonomic problems either.


You do not understand why we raised the floor. The front and rear subframes are attached to the floor, so raising the floor, lowers the body without compromising suspension travel. This lowers the COG, improves aero dynamics and looks cool as hell as a side benefit. The fact that it tucks the exhaust is a side benefit. Except for headroom and a few fab procedures, which we have a plane to lower the seat mount, there is no other negative to raising the floor.



Interested in how the Whipples handle the road course. Now I know the FGT and ZR1 and Cobra as well as the Big Mercs are all using PD blowers, but I also seem to hear they have heat induced power loss after lapping, more so than the turbo and super cars. I"m guessing a lot of that is the inability to fit a big enough heat exchanger under the blower.

It is not a Whipple, it is a Kenne Bell. And heat soaking a blower on a road coarse is always a concern. Exactly why we choose Kenne Bell. The KB blower is water and oil cooled for ice cold (in blower terms) Inlet Air Temps. Also keep in mind we will be doing 3 to 10 to 20 laps, not a Trans Am race!




The alum weights above look good except for the fender. How does a fender go from 26 to 9 lbs ? Alum parts can really only be about 50% lighter in a decent thickness, and you usually save a few lbs by removing some of the extraneous bracketry or bracing, but 9 lb alum fender I don't believe it. And this is coming from someone who was 50% of the way to building hand formed alum fenders for a '67 Mustang. I gave up when I saw the mountain of work ahead to finish them and realized they were only saving me 19 lbs ->11 lbs=8 lbs each.

I have not weighed the fenders yet, but I have held them in my arms and I will not be surprised if they are under 10LBS! I will weigh them.

[parsonsj]

Kevin,

Yes, we believe we'll need to dimple the floor some for the 3 link upper bar.

Exhaust: Frank and I both have strong beliefs that a real street car exhaust needs to get to the rear bumper, so no doubt I've got my work cut out for me (that's one of the things on my side of the balance sheet, lol). I see exhaust cutouts in the crossmember and some "interesting" routing to get exhaust to the rear bumper.

jp

[ProdigyCustoms]

Very interesting! Like the multiple adjustment points for IC tuning on the 4 link.

Does the center upper link mount on the rear axle require a body dimple as well?

What are your exhaust plans?

Nice looking piece, the AME crew does outstanding work.

Yes the center link will require a slice and cover in the floor

For exhaust we will most likely do something similar to what we did on EmptyNest and do some exhaust plenum to go over. See pic below.

I think we will do a round through pan exit on the exhaust ala Project Prodigy. See pic below

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
We fabriacted the trunk floor for EmptyNest, we used a 4" mandrel 90s and put half moons in the trunk pan for the 3" tailpipes. Works fantastic and easy to install.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
Project Prodigy has 4" round tips.

[LSx_88_Ciera]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Is there a reason why you are going with the Watts pivot attached to the rearend housing. I thought that having it frame mounted was better am I misinformed.

[srh3trinity]

That suspension set up looks awesome. I applaud you for laying out some hefty goals while also considering meeting these goals in such a manner that there is the possibility for reproducibility by board members here. It should be fun to see if you meet those goals and if you do, I am sure that many of us will question what this group of minds/fabricators could do if you did do the 5000 hour full-out custom fabricated build.

[ncardanini]

That suspension is awesome. Have you thought about using air ride springs. They are supposed to work just as well as coil-overs, but ride better and they are easier to adjust. They allow three program modes instead of two.

[CraigMorrison]

There's no room for an air spring between the housing and the Watt's link. It's enough of a squeeze with coils. And once you get the setup dialed in with coils you are set!

[ncardanini]

Sounds like a sweet build. Guess its time to get a Super Chevy subscription.

[Bjkadron]

NICE! I can honestly say that I havn't thought of doing a suspension set-up like that!

Very cool!

[MrQuick]

I can't believe you revealed already...could have waited till Sunday. LOL

Looks excellent.
This is going to be an interesting build and I hope we all can learn from it.

Vince

[preston]

>Is there a reason why you are going with the Watts pivot attached to the rearend housing. I thought that having it frame mounted was better am I misinformed.

We've been arguing about this on the internet for years. I personally think the answer is that yes ideally the pivot should be chassis mounted, but in the real world the performance difference (which is less of a physcial improvement in the chassis and more of a "helps the driver perform better" ) is very minimal and doing it this way solves all sorts of packaging and mounting problems (ie weight).

One topic I haven't heard discussed much is the effects of how narrow those LCA's end up being. I realize again you are tied into the stock frame rails and I haven't really applied any math to it. Just an intuitive thing that wider spacing (in plan view) would lead to a more stable setup.

My personal guess was (assuming you weren't doing an IRS) you were planning a 4 link with some kind of floating link that could be locked down. So similar idea but executed much better with this scheme.

[ProdigyCustoms]

For those worried about a 6 speed making it into the 8s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US2Y8c327YA&fmt=22

[Bryce]

I didnt see a sway bar, any plans for one?

[ProdigyCustoms]

It has a sway bar, just not mounted in those pics.

[Ron S]

I don't see the goals being out of the question, there are quite a few C5 Vettes running in these parts, pulling down mid 8 sec. e.t.'s. I would think these same cars with a tire swap would still handle pretty well.

The thing is, these guys have spent years getting the bugs out of these cars. You guys are setting yourselves up for a whole lot of criticism everytime the car doesn't live up to the hipe.

The run up to your goals will take some time, although I think the criticism would be unfair (no pun intended) you are still going to hear it. I can't think of a better way to generate buzz though.

Sounds like a cool project, can't wait to see the finished car. Ron

[Bryce]

are you planning on using the same sway bar for both setups with adjustable arms?

[dropit69]

WOW..this will be a cool project to watch..any plans for finish date ??

[The WidowMaker]

this is a cool project. i was hoping for an all around car without needing the suspension swap, but it still doesnt take away from the goals youre going to achieve.

[ProdigyCustoms]

You guys are setting yourselves up for a whole lot of criticism everytime the car doesn't live up to the hipe.


The drag stuff will be the hardest, but I do own a fast street drag car already. When I built that car in 1996 Crane Cams told me my goals were a second to fast and there was no way I was going to run 9.50s (it is faster) with a pump gas small block, the cam I spec and at 3450LBS. And that car did run the unacheivable goal first time out.

We welcome the criticism. The hype does not say it will run the numbers first time out. But anyone that bags on us if it des not run 8.99 first time out will look foolish to the others here.

I liken this to a Evel Kneivel jump. Half the people are hoping he makes it, the other half are hoping he crashes. I expect this to be no different

[ProdigyCustoms]

are you planning on using the same sway bar for both setups with adjustable arms?

We will try the rear sway bar with and without. There also will be a quick release for the front sway bar end links to release the sway for drag duties and ultimate weight transfer.

We will also have 2 totally different sets of shocks and springs. The shocks and springs will have specific locations at each corner and will come off as assemblies with quick release attachments on each end.

For road race, autocross and street, we will have some Ride Techs Prototype Hella Cool double adjustable remote reservoir shocks with most likely 550LB front and 225LB rear springs, all adjusted for each corner.

For drag and standing mile we will have a completely different set of Ride Techs new prototype double adjustable shocks with most likely 300LB front springs and 110LB rear springs.
Spring rates are all up in the air, but you get the idea. Firm for street and road race, soft for drag race.

[ProdigyCustoms]

this is a cool project. i was hoping for an all around car without needing the suspension swap, but it still doesnt take away from the goals youre going to achieve.

I figure to do it without making changes will take a few hundred more horsepower and just simply over power the track. And we really want the car to be excellent in both configurations.

Remember, this car is a bit of a transfomer, really 2 cars in one

[ProdigyCustoms]

WOW..this will be a cool project to watch..any plans for finish date ??

We hope to be at RTTHs in primer. Then at Sebring October 1st for road coarse testing. Back to the shop, blow it apart, paint it and off to SEMA and Optima Challenge.

[Bow Tie 67]

Frank or as I'm now going to refer to you " Evil " lol I hope you make it but the landing is memorable. :)

[formula]

Fantastic stuff, sir!

Ps Arby's was delicious last night, haha

[turbo kid]

Just a all the way around bad azz car for sure!

[The WidowMaker]

I liken this to a Evel Kneivel jump. Half the people are hoping he makes it, the other half are hoping he crashes. I expect this to be no different

there may be a couple people that would bet against it, but i hope nobody would like to see this fail.

[twosaturns]

now if we can just get Frank to refer to the road coUrse instead of coArse we'll be halfway there!
(sorry, I'm a spelling cop)

[windsor]

there may be a couple people that would bet against it, but i hope nobody would like to see this fail.

you gotta be a **** to want to see this very innovative project fail in any aspect.... that doesn't mean we shouldn't be a bit skeptical ;)

That should give them motivation.

(I'd be a lot more of a cheerleader if it were a Ford :box2::razz::rotfl:)

[Gitter Dun]

Just a few cents here from the peanut gallery, And I am not knocking your building skills one bit because you are obviously a proven and skilled builder, but it seems to me, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that you are getting away from the original theme of the car when you have to remove and replace parts for street, drag, and autocross/road race.

Like I said, not knocking it, and I truly appreciate what your doing, but to have a car that could visit each of those challenges without replacing parts, IMO, would be alot more appealing for someone like myself to build.

There is no doubt in my mind that you will meet your goals but it seems to me the real challenge would be to build a car that could do all that you said without having to remove and replace parts for each venue.

No, I'm not the fun police, just a realist.

[MrQuick]

Gear heads are tinker types from birth, going from drag to twisties with a push of a button would not be in the spirit of the site or hobby.

Id be happy with a great autocross, sticky road course car the runs 11's with no tire change and gets 23 MPG . Much like Vins car.
Moving or replacing links and adjusting shocks are reasonable tasks.
I believe they have the know how and resources to get it done.
I am more of a let them build it
let them learn
then let them teach so all can learn kinda guy.
Vince

[T_Raven]

Just a few cents here from the peanut gallery, And I am not knocking your building skills one bit because you are obviously a proven and skilled builder, but it seems to me, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that you are getting away from the original theme of the car when you have to remove and replace parts for street, drag, and autocross/road race.

Like I said, not knocking it, and I truly appreciate what your doing, but to have a car that could visit each of those challenges without replacing parts, IMO, would be alot more appealing for someone like myself to build.

There is no doubt in my mind that you will meet your goals but it seems to me the real challenge would be to build a car that could do all that you said without having to remove and replace parts for each venue.

No, I'm not the fun police, just a realist.


This is kinda what I was thinking. It's a cool build either way. But it's not so Unfair if you have to swap parts between events.

[Greg from Aus]

Just a few cents here from the peanut gallery, And I am not knocking your building skills one bit because you are obviously a proven and skilled builder, but it seems to me, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that you are getting away from the original theme of the car when you have to remove and replace parts for street, drag, and autocross/road race.

Like I said, not knocking it, and I truly appreciate what your doing, but to have a car that could visit each of those challenges without replacing parts, IMO, would be alot more appealing for someone like myself to build.

There is no doubt in my mind that you will meet your goals but it seems to me the real challenge would be to build a car that could do all that you said without having to remove and replace parts for each venue.

No, I'm not the fun police, just a realist.


I really think you are missing the point, that it can be done. They are talking about some adjustments, not sliding in a complete new rear end. :enguard: Even race teams slide out shocks and springs from track to track, Its all still in the same packaging.

Greg

[twosaturns]

Just a few cents here from the peanut gallery, And I am not knocking your building skills one bit because you are obviously a proven and skilled builder, but it seems to me, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that you are getting away from the original theme of the car when you have to remove and replace parts for street, drag, and autocross/road race.

Like I said, not knocking it, and I truly appreciate what your doing, but to have a car that could visit each of those challenges without replacing parts, IMO, would be alot more appealing for someone like myself to build.

There is no doubt in my mind that you will meet your goals but it seems to me the real challenge would be to build a car that could do all that you said without having to remove and replace parts for each venue.

No, I'm not the fun police, just a realist.
any car CAN run a race course and the 1/4 and an autocross; a stock corvette would do all reasonably well. but I think the LEVEL they want to play at would require parts/setup/geometry changes. it looks like they are shooting for a car that can be OPTIMIZED for EACH, instead of being great at one, and just ok at the others.

[XLexusTech]

Just to weigh in on parts swapping.....
1) typically the "all around" goals are targeted with adjustments only.
2) Typically the goals are not so High *8.5 is freaking fast.
3) If you kept it to adjustments only it would likely still kick ass but and 8.50.... nope not going to do that without some real suspension setup.. That AM 5 link looks killer if they keep it to shock an link adjustment then that's cool with me
4) Its Franks gig he can do whatever the hell he wants.....
5) Once you start swapping major parts.... you might as well start swapping engines..... What kind of parts we taking here?

[silver69camaro]

Is there a reason why you are going with the Watts pivot attached to the rearend housing. I thought that having it frame mounted was better am I misinformed.

I didn't look like anybody answered your question, so I will.

Frame-mounted watts pivots have the advantage of removing about one pound of unprung weight and keeping the RC in a constant location. In a car that has little suspension travel like a PT car does, it's a moot point. The RC height stays pretty much constant in roll.

Also, packaging is a major problem for frame-mount watts.

[ProdigyCustoms]

I do not think a car can be built to be excellent at all events with tweaking only, or in cab adjustments. TwoSaturns nailed it, we want the car Optimized for each event, and hard as we thought we could not dream up something that could do it all. And when I say we, let me tell you. John and I have direct numbers for all the major players in the PT word, and we used them.

As mentioned, Sprint Cup cars run different shock and spring packages for Watkins Glenn then Daytona (if they use the same car at all). Drag racers have all kind of different springs and shocks for different track temps. We have 5 arms and 2 sets of shock to choose from. Not much different.

So look at this car as 2 cars in one. A Transfomer of sorts. We think we can convert the car from road racer to drag racer in a couple hours tops. Some people adjust tire pressure and shock adjustment, we adjust suspension bars and shock packages with a quick disconnect.

As Tonner said (who is building Unfair II BTW), it is not like we are changing motors or rears.

[parsonsj]

I love the discussion guys! Keep it coming.

I get the disappointment about parts swapping to transform the car between different modes. It would be awesome if we could have a found a way to easily tweak it to change modes.

But let's examine that. For fun, let's just fantasize a bit: let's say that changing the car from road racing to drag racing involved lengthening the upper arm by 1/2" and shortening the lower arm by 1/2". Further, let's say we need to adjust the shocks by twisting the knobs, but that we have to change springs.

OK? Everybody got that?

Lengthen/shorten the arms, swap springs, change shock settings.

Now, instead of tweaking those things, just imagine swapping them: Change the upper arm for one 1/2" shorter. Change the lower arms for ones 1/2" longer. Swap the coilovers to different springs and with the shocks already adjusted.

I say the two approaches are functionally equivalent. And the better approach, because its easier to ensure repeatability, is to swap parts instead of tweak them.

Thoughts?

jp

[Bjkadron]

I love the discussion guys! Keep it coming.

I get the disappointment about parts swapping to transform the car between different modes. It would be awesome if we could have a found a way to easily tweak it to change modes.

But let's examine that. For fun, let's just fantasize a bit: let's say that changing the car from road racing to drag racing involved lengthening the upper arm by 1/2" and shortening the lower arm by 1/2". Further, let's say we need to adjust the shocks by twisting the knobs, but that we have to change springs.

OK? Everybody got that?

Lengthen/shorten the arms, swap springs, change shock settings.

Now, instead of tweaking those things, just imagine swapping them: Change the upper arm for one 1/2" shorter. Change the lower arms for ones 1/2" longer. Swap the coilovers to different springs and with the shocks already adjusted.

I say the two approaches are functionally equivalent. And the better approach, because its easier to ensure repeatability, is to swap parts instead of tweak them.

Thoughts?

jp

You should do it like mine! With adjustable Wheel-rates! But I'm not going to tell you how to do it :1st: So.. Sorry.

[formula]

In a perfect world, the coolest way to do it would be with a ferrari-style "mannetino" on the steering wheel/center console that had STREET, DRAG, and COURSE settings--switching to each would reconfigure link lengths, reset spring rates, and readjust the shocks to match.

But that....would be very difficult. Looking at problably magnetorheological shocks, either air springs or an air/coil combo....tons of linear actuators...packaging turns into a nightmare....and to use that suspension design and be able to connect/disconnect from inside the car would be a safety nightmare...

I'm trying to understand--are you guys going to actually use some sort of quick-disconnect for all of the swappable parts? Because then I think it would be legit. Sort of like a quick-change rear end, just with the entire suspension.

Plus I would LOVE to be able to just flip some sort of pin out of my g-bar links and adjust link lengths at the track without tools. Buhmaybedasjusme.

[Bryce]

dirt track and circle track cars use quick disconnect pins on their control arms for quick pit changes to geometry. So it exists and is a tried method.

[Vegas69]

Since this is a "Pro Touring" car, I'm assuming you will have mounting brackets in the trunk for the extra arms, coil overs, jack, and jackstands? hahaha

[JMarsa]

It's looking like the end result is more Iron Man

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/04/ironman1-1.jpg

Than transformers :)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/04/side20transformer-1.jpg

--JMarsa

[John Wright]

Since this is a "Pro Touring" car, I'm assuming you will have mounting brackets in the trunk for the extra arms, coil overs, jack, and jackstands? hahaha
Maybe David and James will lend them their trailer when they get through with the one lap event....LOL...just poking some fun.

[parsonsj]

I'm assuming you will have mounting brackets in the trunk for the extra arms, coil overs, jack, and jackstands?LOL! But let me ask you guys that drive your car on the track something:

Do you race your car with the tools and supplies in the car that you needed to get your car ready for the track? Are you running the autoX with your jackstands and floor jack in the trunk?

If we can transform the car at the track with hand tools, floor jack, and jackstands then it's the same thing... just a different degree.

jp

[parsonsj]

Maybe David and James will lend them their trailer No need. Frank and I have 4 trailers between us. Trailers and tow vehicles... we got covered.

jp

[ProdigyCustoms]

Since this is a "Pro Touring" car, I'm assuming you will have mounting brackets in the trunk for the extra arms, coil overs, jack, and jackstands? hahaha

So what if the jacks were built in and the extra parts were molded into the trunk?

AHHH!

[ProdigyCustoms]

I'm trying to understand--are you guys going to actually use some sort of quick-disconnect for all of the swappable parts? Because then I think it would be legit. Sort of like a quick-change rear end, just with the entire suspension.


I suspect we will be able to have a shock off in a minute or 2 and have a pre loaded ready to go replacment back on in another couple minutes.

[team 68 chevelle]

Awesome.

[silver69camaro]

I suspect we will be able to have a shock off in a minute or 2 and have a pre loaded ready to go replacment back on in another couple minutes.

When I swap my car from a 4 to a 3-link (or vise versa) it really only takes about 20 minutes...most of that time is getting the car up in the air and on jackstands.

[parsonsj]

When I swap my car from a 4 to a 3-link (or vise versa) it really only takes about 20 minutes.There you go. Sounds like tweaking to me, lol.

[RS_Customs]

I suspect we will be able to have a shock off in a minute or 2 and have a pre loaded ready to go replacment back on in another couple minutes.

I looked into those bad ass air jacks the race cars use a few years ago and wow they have a price tag, lol. Would be really nice to have though.

Love the updates and pictures!

Robert

[Vegas69]

Of course I'm joking. I've been thinking about this whole Optima Challenge deal some recently and how far we should be allowed to go. Swapping out suspension pieces between events is against the spirit of a "Pro Touring" in my opinion. I have my doubts that everyone will get as serious about this whole deal as you guys. At the end of the day I still think the driver is the biggest variable. The drag racing side is different. Having a car capable of winning the Optima Challenge one day and running 8's the next is way ahead of the curve and cool as hell. I just don't like the idea of moving these qualifiers and the Optima Challenge more towards a race car type event. I still like the idea of a cruise and a run what you brung deal. Of course, I have to compete with you! LOL

[parsonsj]

Swapping out suspension pieces between events is against the spirit of a "Pro Touring" in my opinion. I agree: it's Unfair.

You're right about the driver being the biggest variable. One of the problems with the current setup at the Optima event is that drivers get 3 laps. That's it: 3 LAPS! No wonder Kinnan missed turn 1! He was going balls out before he or his car was warmed up.

I'd like to see some touring laps with rotating cars following a pace car for 10 laps or so. Let everybody get 30 or laps in their cars like that before they go for a timed lap. And... for the timed laps you can easily get 4 cars on the course at a time. Give people two warm-up laps followed by 3 timed laps. Run 4 cars at a time.

Now that... would be fun. :)

jp

[Neil B]

Very cool project guys. Can't wait to see it.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Of course I'm joking. I've been thinking about this whole Optima Challenge deal some recently and how far we should be allowed to go. Swapping out suspension pieces between events is against the spirit of a "Pro Touring" in my opinion. I have my doubts that everyone will get as serious about this whole deal as you guys.

For the record, we are not counting on the win at Optima Challenge. Driver and luck will be too important in the final outcome to predict that. To many great drivers out there no matter how good the car is. But we are looking to be very competitive. I see all kinds of pictures at Optima Challenge with cars jacked up making changes, adjustments, repairs.

I really see no difference in changing preload (length) in the bars VS changing pre adjusted bars?

I really see no difference in changing bar hole location for instant center and anti squat changes VS changing pre adjusted bars and locations. Just because they are going in different holes.

I really see no difference in changing shock valving (adjusting Knobs) or jacking more or less spring (or Air) into it VS changing to a Pre Adjusted spring / shock package.

So where is the limit?

Do we all have to run the same air pressure in the tires for all events?


Do we all have to run same shock valving for all events?


Do we all have to run same Pre load for all events?

Do we all have to run the same amount of spring pre load for all events?

Then the big question..........................

WHY?

Because other do not have the adjust ability?

It is a competition isn't it?

And what about you guys in Vegas that have unlimited time to practice the track?

We will get 3 laps?

I think that is Unfair!

Sorry, could'nt help myself!

[XLexusTech]

I love the discussion guys! Keep it coming.

I get the disappointment about parts swapping to transform the car between different modes.
jp

For me that's it in a nut shell... a triple threat No parts unlimited tuning... That my friends is the Holy Grail.....

[parsonsj]

a triple threat No parts unlimited tuning... That my friends is the Holy Grail....That's a good analogy: neither one exists. <j/k>

jp

[Vegas69]

I agree John, everyone should get a 15-20 minute practice session. It would be much safer.

Frank, I see what you're saying. Adjustments and swapping out pieces are two different things but if the rules allow it so be it. I'll be the first guy to shake your hand if it gains you a win in a segment. I'll be interested to see how big of a difference the changes make. Are you going to test before and after scenarios? The lack of traction for the 0-60-0 and autocross make the changes harder to realize. It's usually a greasy, dirty parking lot. The biggest advantage here is on the strip. We'll all just hope that doesn't become part of the competition or we're screwed!

[David Sloan]

quote JP
I'd like to see some touring laps with rotating cars following a pace car for 10 laps or so. Let everybody get 30 or laps in their cars like that before they go for a timed lap. And... for the timed laps you can easily get 4 cars on the course at a time. Give people two warm-up laps followed by 3 timed laps. Run 4 cars at a time.

Now that... would be fun.

I could not agree more an have said so at the RTTH, PSMC. ect. ect. We did a driving to dry the track last year an i think most would agree it was a blast.
We will all have to get together an work on this.
Thanks

[Smock67]

Wow quick disconnect suspension pieces that really is just unfair, and I can't wait to see how you are going to do this. Can't wait to see more updates.

[The WidowMaker]

do you guys remember the guy with the truck at RTTC. first vehicle of the day and first lap balls out!! it would be nice to have a real warm up set. well it would also be nice to have the damn car done to run with you guys.

[shortrack]

:lurk: I have the same sort of idea for my car ......come up with a good road race setup for the car.... if I want to ride around on the street pull out a box marked "street" and put a set of softer springs and shock set up in the car and put the other stuff in a box with "road race" marked on it......right now the car has a radical oval set up in it, I'll have a big box with "oval" marked on it along with the current alignment and set up specs.....just pull out the box depending on what I want to do....."street" "road race" "oval".....been my idea since the late 80s after I totalled my first chevelle but life and boats got in the way and I haven't been able to get on it until now..... great idea if I say so myself!:)

[John Wright]

I get the disappointment about parts swapping to transform the car between different modes. It would be awesome if we could have a found a way to easily tweak it to change modes.


:idea:

:attn:Can't you put one of them there selector knobs on the dash?

Drag/Road Course/AutoX/Comfort....:woot:

LOL, now what's so hard about that? :smoke:...Bwhahaha.

[k5warwagon]

If they show up to any competition with the road course setup, then what's the big deal? If the dragstrip and Maxton aren't a part of these "competitions" then i don't see a problem. If these guys go out and kick butt at the Optima, then later document a 30 minute swap to run 8.99, and then 200 at Maxton then they deserve all the credit in the world. Just my opinion.

[twosaturns]

no one has mentioned this yet, but SAFETY is also a major part of this. it wouldn't be wise to try to run a autocross w/a drag setup, or a high speed run at the level of competition they are shooting for.

[ArtosDracon]

no one has mentioned this yet, but SAFETY is also a major part of this. it wouldn't be wise to try to run a autocross w/a drag setup, or a high speed run at the level of competition they are shooting for.

Fixed back seats, five point harnesses and properly design 8 or 10 point cage will be safe in virtually any environment. It doesn't sound like it's going be running in the 7's, but 'chutes wouldn't be that hard to incorporate, like on that OD Green camaro from a while back. Wheelie bars wouldn't really be any more complicated, could be built as whole bolt-on unit for the 'chutes and wheelie bar. I can't think of what else might be an issue for one specific sport over another. Build to the strictest rules from each sport and it's unlikely any will be in conflict. The autocross track sure won't hurt from a rear firewall, and the extra lateral rigidity will simple help the car track without front wheels on the ground when on the strip.

Do you have any specific concerns?

[twosaturns]

Do you have any specific concerns?
perhaps I'm way off here (wouldn't be the 1st time) but my thinking was trying to run an autocross w/ drag shocks and slicks. obviously it wouldn't be all that safe. so that's why you wouldn't be able to run one car/one setup in all types of competition. there needs to be different sets of wheels and shocks, besides performance, but also safety.

don't mind me, carry on.

[ProdigyCustoms]

For safety we have the challenge of blending the cage and safety requirments to fit into NHRA and NASA rule books.

John and I are the same height and use the same seating position, so fixed seats yes, but also additional mounting locations for people of other heights, like Mary for example!
Full on board fire system for sure.
Window net.

You get the idea.

As for parachute and wheelie bars. Won;t need either really for drag racing, she will only run 150MPH or so at the drags and I slow my street drag car from 146MPH with stock front brakes and rear drums. We will have a little bigger brakes.

But if I can fit them on there for effect alone, i will.

Parachute, if we can design a pin on dolution where it plugs in when we need it, a chute at Maxton would be nice.

[preston]

Yeah doesn't an 8 second car need a 25.1 certified cage with the funny car cage portion and all sorts of double frame rails and crap ? I don't know much about it but I thought it did. Maybe that's 7 seconds when it gets really crazy. Could be a whole lot of weight in a steel based car.

I know that Prodigy knows what its doing, but all this talk about swapping setups in and out. It can go pretty fast on a lift with complete air tools and jacks, but in my experience as a one man show on jackstands is that its not that easy. Sure I can get it on stands, pull the wheelsn, and undo the bolts pretty easily assuming I have an impact gun. But loading a new unit in there, getting the nuts and bolts started, re-safety wiring stuff. Maybe its just my car, but even simple swaps or changing links seems to be much harder than it sounds on paper. There is usually something sticky, or a little pre-load on stuff, or just normal mechanical vagaries that make it much harder and physically more difficult that it sounds.

Hell I use most of a Saturday and all of my lower back just tweaking my alignment and ride height.

[MrQuick]

Thats the difference between drag racers and some road track racers.
Them drag guys build everything so its easy to swap. Spaced heims, quick disco coil overs, tang locked headers.
I remember friends bustin tranies and rear ends at the drags and 45 mins later they are back out. Amazing sometimes.

I've seen some crazy stuff at the pits at both type or racing so I guess it just depends. me, if something broke I'd be back on the trailer. But in defence, I once assembled a 67 Carmaro from shell to driver in a weekend on a dirt driveway behind a church using hand tools, without a cherry picker and just a cheap floor jack ....in the snow, uphill. LOL

Vince

[ProdigyCustoms]

We will be no where near 25.1C requirments, were not going nearly 7.50s

[Vicinity]

Thats the difference between drag racers and some road track racers.
Them drag guys build everything so its easy to swap. Spaced heims, quick disco coil overs, tang locked headers.
I remember friends bustin tranies and rear ends at the drags and 45 mins later they are back out. Amazing sometimes.

I've seen some crazy stuff at the pits at both type or racing so I guess it just depends. me, if something broke I'd be back on the trailer. But in defence, I once assembled a 67 Carmaro from shell to driver in a weekend on a dirt driveway behind a church using hand tools, without a cherry picker and just a cheap floor jack ....in the snow, uphill. LOL

Vince

Damn, really? You for hire? :fingersx:

[madmax]

Going to be following this one... just disappointed it isn't going to be Way II Much. Still should be good, though :1st:

[LSfan70s]

Subscribing.

[Ricoch3T]

cut off is 8.60's i believe it was last time we got our chassis certified. You only have to have the funny car type cage for quicker than that.
I do believe you are going to have to get the chassis certified even for running 9's. I think you HAVE to have the parachute b/c the last time i read the rule it said something like
required for cars running an et of 9.99 or quicker or for cars exceeding 150mph.
Buddy of mine has a street car that runs a parachute. I think he has it mounted so he can just pull a pin inside the trunk and slide the tubing out that the pack is mounted on. On the bottom its just hooked in where the gas tank filler neck is with a bolt.



Yeah doesn't an 8 second car need a 25.1 certified cage with the funny car cage portion and all sorts of double frame rails and crap ? I don't know much about it but I thought it did. Maybe that's 7 seconds when it gets really crazy. Could be a whole lot of weight in a steel based car.

I know that Prodigy knows what its doing, but all this talk about swapping setups in and out. It can go pretty fast on a lift with complete air tools and jacks, but in my experience as a one man show on jackstands is that its not that easy. Sure I can get it on stands, pull the wheelsn, and undo the bolts pretty easily assuming I have an impact gun. But loading a new unit in there, getting the nuts and bolts started, re-safety wiring stuff. Maybe its just my car, but even simple swaps or changing links seems to be much harder than it sounds on paper. There is usually something sticky, or a little pre-load on stuff, or just normal mechanical vagaries that make it much harder and physically more difficult that it sounds.

Hell I use most of a Saturday and all of my lower back just tweaking my alignment and ride height.