Introducing Project Unfair, The fastest All Around Pro Touring Car On The Planet! [Archive] - Page 4

gearbanger

05-01-2011, 06:34 AM

I am getting confused as to what this car really is anyway? Is it a drag car? It seems if you are going to have a manual trans that is worth a hoot for drag racing, it's not going to be worth anything for autocrossing or anything else. It just seems like the project has gotten pretty wild to be considered an "all around" car. If it takes a couple of hours to go between drag racing setup and autocross setup, my lord, a bunch of good ole boys from Iowa did an LS swap in 37 minutes at a car show. Sounds like this car is actually two purpose built cars. To me, pro-touring is, running it the way it sits and making it accelerate, corner, and stop really well. I can live with adjusting shocks, and bolting on some slicks but come on, not rebuilding the whole car.

I DO LOVE THIS CAR, NO DISREPECT INTENDED. IT IS TOTALLY BAD A$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!

parsonsj

05-01-2011, 08:15 AM

Sounds like this car is actually two purpose built cars.That's a good description, though maybe 2 1/2 is better. I call them "modes". Drag racing mode, road racing mode, street mode, with the biggest change being to drag racing mode, and a smaller change between the street and road racing modes. Auto-crossing isn't really something we expect to do very much, and we'll just use the road racing mode for that.

my lord, a bunch of good ole boys from Iowa did an LS swap in 37 minutes at a car show.I don't understand what that has to do with Unfair's mode switching at any level. I mean, Takeru Kobayashi can eat 54 hot dogs in 5 minutes. :)

And I hear you guys on the transmission. I think it's our weakest link, and probably the thing that's going to give us the most grief. Frank and Michael designed the floor and I designed the headers to support easy transmission swaps. I hope our wallets don't go up in clutch smoke!

TheJDMan

05-01-2011, 10:28 AM

John,
Those rotor adaptors you had made for your rear hubs, any idea what kind of price on them without the reluctor ring? My floating hubs came with adaptors with an 8 on 7" bolt circle. As you stated some time back these are probably not ideal for 13" or 14" rotors. It would be simple enough to replace the adaptors I have and switch to 12 on 8.75 adaptors like yours. The only thing I need to verify is what the inner 5 bolt circle is. Also, what brackets did you weld on the housing to mount the rear calipers and where did you get them?

BTW, how is the Prodigy move progressing? Are they in their new digs yet?

parsonsj

05-01-2011, 10:59 AM

Those rotor adaptors you had made for your rear hubs, any idea what kind of price on them without the reluctor ring? My floating hubs came with adaptors with an 8 on 7" bolt circle. As you stated some time back these are probably not ideal for 13" or 14" rotors. It would be simple enough to replace the adaptors I have to 12 on 8.75. The only thing I need to verify is what the inner 5 bolt circle is. Also, what brackets did you weld on the housing to mount the rear calipers and where did you get them?Steve, check out Ray Hale's thread here. (https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?44130-Satan-s-quot-Lady-Bug-quot/page47) He covers the brackets etc. As far as cost, drop me a PM if want to pursue that. They are expensive, to say the least. Omitting the reluctor might make some difference in price due to material differences (they could be made from 1/4" aluminum) and machine time, but my machinist really really doesn't want to make just a couple. (he raises his price to discourage such practices, lol)

And Frank and the boys are completely in their new place as of today. They are working 18 hour days to get the showroom, parts depot, and main shop up and running.

jp

TheJDMan

05-01-2011, 02:26 PM

Thanks John,
These are the hubs I'm using on my 12 bolt
http://9inchfloater.com/RrEndKits/RrEndKits_28_31.htm

I was planning to use these brackets so it looks like I'm on the right track.
http://9inchfloater.com/SpareParts/caliperbracket_28_31.htm

gearbanger

05-04-2011, 05:09 PM

I don't understand what that has to do with Unfair's mode switching at any level. I mean, Takeru Kobayashi can eat 54 hot dogs in 5 minutes. :)

That's a good one :rotfl: Sorry for the rant. I was just reinforcing the point that there is a limit to how much work that has to be done to switch "modes" before you really don't have an "all around" performer, but a drag car, and a trailer full of parts to change it into a road racer.

Not that there is anything wrong with that! :cool:

Ron S

05-05-2011, 02:13 AM

My money says that this car will never dip into the 8's...Especially not with a manual transmission. But I have been wrong before.

Andrew

I don't know Andrew, at first I was on the fence. Mine made into the 10's on KDW's and a clutchless 4 speed. With a 132mph trap speed, with slicks it (should) be low to mid 10's. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-oChZkQGsA That was a stock LS7 with a cam. and no power adders. A big engine, and a big power adder with the same combo should at least get close. HeII I thought about squeezing mine just to get into the 9's, that was before I littered the track with my bottom end up in Jersey. Ron

andrewb70

05-05-2011, 07:19 AM

I don't know Andrew, at first I was on the fence. Mine made into the 10's on KDW's and a clutchless 4 speed. With a 132mph trap speed, with slicks it (should) be low to mid 10's. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-oChZkQGsA That was a stock LS7 with a cam. and no power adders. A big engine, and a big power adder with the same combo should at least get close. HeII I thought about squeezing mine just to get into the 9's, that was before I littered the track with my bottom end up in Jersey. Ron

I hear what you are saying, Ron, but remember, going faster and quicker requires an exponential amount of power. On top of power, chassis set-up and traction become critical when attempting to go that quick. As power is increased, the ability to put that power to the ground decreases, all other things being equal. Ever heard the joke, "What does a 400hp, an 800hp, and 1200hp Supra have in common?" :-)

Don't get me wrong, I think both John and Frank have a great deal of ability, talent, and experience. They are my friends and I certainly want to see them succeed, but they have embarked on a huge challenge. Honestly, if this car had a 4L80E transmission, I probably wouldn't be as skeptical. Using a manual transmission will present them with the biggest challenges. The weight of the car will also be critical. If this thing ends up being over 3300 pounds, it will make it that much harder to achieve all intended goals. Their manual transmission should really be a dog-ring box with a programmable flat-shift feature. I know this was planned for the Holley EFI eventually, but I am not sure as to the status of it. If I was part of this project, I would be contacting AutoTech Driveline and snagging their remaining PPG T56 dog-ring gear set for T56s. A stock Magnum T56 isn't going to cut it in my opinion.

http://www.autotechdriveline.com/p_gearkitsale.shtml

For drag racing this car should also be setup with a McLeod SoftLoc clutch. That will help tremendously with the 60' times and same the rest of the driveline. Using a sledge hammer engine with a sledge hammer clutch is a recipe for broken parts.

The combination of a SoftLoc clutch, dogring transmission, and flat-shift capability will go a long way towards putting this car into the 8's. The SoftLoc shouldn't be a liability on the street or road course. It can be adjusted for more spring pressure for those conditions.

Andrew

ProdigyCustoms

05-05-2011, 07:40 AM

My money says that this car will never dip into the 8's...Especially not with a manual transmission. But I have been wrong before.

Andrew

Money huh?

I really do not understand all the concern for manual transmission. We are looking for 1200HP to 1300HP on the small pulley. I am not putting the motor in the car if it does not make 1100HP on the small pulley. Even at only 1100HP we will have a extra couple hundred horse more then we need to make up for a 70% soft hit at the line,

I have found this calculator deadly accurate.

Put 3300LBS (we will be lighter) and 1100HP in this calculator

http://www.wallaceracing.com/et-hp-mph.php

It says 8.40s, Our goal is 8.99s.

I think I can handle the shifting, but I will put SW in it if I have to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US2Y8c327YA

andrewb70

05-05-2011, 08:05 AM

Money huh?

......

How about dinner and cocktails, for you and John, on me if/when you dip into the 8's? :1st:

Andrew

hefs72

05-05-2011, 09:04 AM

i think you guys are right on track. 8.99s are more than within reach. With the power your going to have in reserve it shouldnt be a huge deal. There are guys that are running well into the 9s with Pro motion t5s and doing it with out breakages and on a consistant basis with way less horsepower probably 650 or so at the wheels. I would assume you are going to see 800-900 to the wheels or somewhere around there that should be more than enough to make it up on the big end. As long as the car drives good and handles at the 200 ft mark and on and doesnt come unglued I think your gonna have a hell of alot of fun.

roanokejim

05-05-2011, 09:53 PM

This project is really unfair. Imagine from the crap to luxurious car. I really love it. :D

Bow Tie 67

05-09-2011, 07:22 AM

How about dinner and cocktails, for you and John, on me if/when you dip into the 8's? :1st:

Andrew

That will cost them. LOL

JEFFTATE

05-09-2011, 10:46 AM

How about dinner and cocktails, for you and John, on me if/when you dip into the 8's? :1st:

Andrew

Sounds like an excuse for a party !
I'm comin over for this !!

25-5

05-09-2011, 07:02 PM

Very nice
Some great thinking

trapin

06-01-2011, 04:38 AM

Norm Peterson

06-06-2011, 12:03 PM

An automatic in this car would certainly not hurt it at the dragstrip. Wouldn't hurt it much at the road course either. Vinny shook up the world with his automatic Camaro with roughly half the horsepower. It can be done.
The way I understand this build, the car is a PT/auto-X/road course car with an unusually high dragstrip performance target rather than the other way around. Strong preference for a MT was specifically mentioned.

I honestly don't know where one could reasonably draw a line between that which constitutes "event-specific tuning" and wholesale parts swapping. But the quicker any such transformation can be made, the more extreme of an extent to which you could carry it without getting too far astray from "conventional". Swapping the basic rear suspension arrangement from 3 to 4 link is really only one step past tire changes, shock tuning and alignment (all of which I've done for local autocrossing), so I suppose that anything you could swap to, and from, plus run the event in a single (long) day might constitute one definition.

On the ABS issue - not flat-spotting tires is nice. But Bosch et al are also going to be concerned about the yaw effects arising from unequal braking, and I'll bet that's at least part of what's behind their position here.

On the tranny mount - as long as the engine mounts are relatively a lot more rigid and the chassis between the engine mounts and the tranny crossmember is also more rigid against general torsion there shouldn't be much problem. Not knowing those things (but knowing a little bit about fatigue) means I'd keep a fairly close eye on the sheetmetal around the tranny mount attachments for fatigue cracking, as there will be more than just weight loading happening there. I'm not telling you that this will happen, but I can't say with any confidence that it never could.

I've been trying to follow this in the magazine, but have had a hard time (not being a subscriber at this point).

Norm

parsonsj

06-06-2011, 12:59 PM

The way I understand this build, the car is a PT/auto-X/road course car with an unusually high dragstrip performance target rather than the other way around. Strong preference for a MT was specifically mentioned.Very well put. Frank and I are both non-plussed about the use of an automatic... but we don't want to break 3 manuals trying to get the car down the strip either. I think we'll probably end up starting with something conventional like the 700 lb-ft rated T56 and some special OD gearing. If we break that in a week or so, then we'll get serious about an auto, I think. Right now, we're waiting on the motor. It is supposed to be here soon. :sleeping:

MrBlonde

06-13-2011, 01:20 AM

..
Also can you read the LCD display with the sun at your back?
Yes the Stack dash is very readable even with sun on it.

MrBlonde

06-13-2011, 01:32 AM

..
Obviously no knock on Project Unfair, but I've always been surprised how excited guys get for those Stack displays. To me, while they are programmable, the display is not as easy to read especially for ancillary functions, and just doesn't provide that old muscle car look like a suite of aftermarket gauges. Of course, the proper arrangement can be hard to fit into an OEM style dash. It works well with the flat surface of my early Mustang dash though. If anything I'd like to have an auxiliary screen that displays mostly ECU type parameters (like VE%, MAT, and MAP), but not as my primary display. But the flexibility, ease of install, and weight do matter. And you're right about cost, I just spent $700 upgrading my gauges and that didn't even include the tach and speedo. Those full sweeps just look so nice compared to the older style though.
..

That's because Stack and Motec dash displays (and other similar units) are fantastic when you're racing. Even for street driving. I used to think like you and have numerous old school Autometer gauges in my cars .. until I tried a Stack dash. With lots of gauges you really don't have enough time to monitor all the dials in a racing situation. OK let me rephrase that. you DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH TIME to monitor numerous sweep analogue gauges in a race situation.

What Stack offers is an analogue tach with a digital display for many functions. But the best part is the programmable warning limits. You program the display to light the red lamp if any of your custom defined conditions occur (like low oil pressure or high water temperature, etc). The Stack will automatically place the out of range function in the display for you to read.

So you're just shifting into 4th gear at half track and watching your shift light for the last gear. But then the red lamp lights up .. and you button off instantly to see a low fuel pressure reading on your Stack. Or you've just left a double apex left hander and you're concentrating on feeding the throttle when the red lamp comes on. You glance down to see your diff oil temperature is too hot. Or you're cruising the highway and enjoying some tunes when the lamp lights up and you look down to see you've got low voltage. Hmm .. did I leave that trickle charger on? Etc.

As for not looking as good as some Autometers I hear what you are saying. But once you start getting 8, 10, 12 gauges on a dash it looks rubbish anyway.

Personally I will always want an analogue tach because that's how I drive, but every other gauge .. digital is better, when coupled with programmable warning lights. I used to feel that an analogue speedo was also mandatory, but my Porsche 996 TT daily driver cured me of that. I found I always used the digital speedo over the analogue speedo. Who knew?

I like your sentiment about having some primary gauges analog and then the rest as a separate digital display. For that you'd go with something like Motec. A well configured Motec M800 ECU/Data Logging/Sensor/Display setup is really unbeatable and means one set of sensors for the whole shooting match.

MrBlonde

06-13-2011, 01:39 AM

There isn't as much information out there on RaceLogic as I'd like, but 90% of what I read is positive. It seems to work well, in fact I wonder if that's why we don't hear more about it. I talked to the guys at RL and the guys at Woodhouse Viper. Woodhouse says as long as its installed and setup correctly it works great, and that they don't have any problems on FI engines. I too would prefer spark & fuel cut, but that would definitely complicate things as well. I understand your concerns about residual fuel around an injector cut event, but from what I understand cutting even one cycle of injection is plenty to make the cylinder too lean. REmember lean is bad, but there needs to be enough fuel to at least heat up and burn - without an injector event even if htere is residual fuel it won't be enough to light, and it is enough to light it won't be enough to damage. Fuel cut is probably better for the downstream components than pure spark cut.

Also, this is pretty much the only TC game in town other than a Motec M800 (which does provide 3 dimensional spark and fuel cut). Its a $4500 box and even though it has a lot of capabilities it annoys me because it only has 6 ignition outputs and you need a separate box to go 8 cylinder COP. My $600 Megasquirt has 8 ignition outputs, and more analog in/out channels too ! But no TC, although its supposed to be coming.
..

RaceLogic is fantastic as an add-on Launch Control/Traction Control/Flat Shift system. Works very well for street cars proven over and over.

I guess we all have our own viewpoint and if yours has MegaSquirt and Motec M800 in a comparison situation then happy days. Obviously Motec M800 well configured does away with the need for RaceLogic or any other traction control/launch control/flat shift components.

MrBlonde

06-13-2011, 01:45 AM

..
In Illinois and most other states a car with roll cage having halo bars and forward down bars is not considered street legal.

Why, main reason being that in the event of a car accident the driver would most likely be killed when his skull bounced off the bar. Also 4 & 5 point harness are not DOT approved.
..

I've been down the same path for both roll cage and harnesses in a street car. I don't accept that a roll cage reduces my safety level in a street situation. The "risk to head trauma" line is a load of crap with a roll cage that's tucked up close to the roof line. Also if your harness is properly fitted there is no way your head can touch the cage. And therein lies the real problem. With a properly fitted harness you can't turn around at all which really does pose a safety issue in a street situation. Sure you can use mirrors but really, anyone who has raced in a harness knows it's no good for street driving.

There's no real solution to the roll cage/harness issue for street driving.

MrBlonde

06-13-2011, 01:47 AM

Here's a pic of the rotor adapters I just picked up from the machinist. They've got a built-in reluctor and use a 12x8.75 pattern so we can use Wilwood's biggest rotors. The smaller adapter is Moser's standard part for use with smaller rotors.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
Awesome!

MrBlonde

06-13-2011, 01:51 AM

Did some tire testing last night on the 345 / 35 / 18 drag tires. Used my JustBringIt Street Racer. long story short, got 1.35 short time being easy on it. those 8.99s are in the BAG!
..

Wow. Honestly even with your great rear setup I wouldn't have believed 1.29 short time on any 18" tire you could name. That shows how well the chassis is working! A really impressive achievement. What launch control/traction control is in place with the motor+ nitrous pass? I'm guessing none.

MrBlonde

06-13-2011, 01:56 AM

I hear what you are saying, Ron, but remember, going faster and quicker requires an exponential amount of power. On top of power, chassis set-up and traction become critical when attempting to go that quick. As power is increased, the ability to put that power to the ground decreases, all other things being equal. Ever heard the joke, "What does a 400hp, an 800hp, and 1200hp Supra have in common?" :-)

Don't get me wrong, I think both John and Frank have a great deal of ability, talent, and experience. They are my friends and I certainly want to see them succeed, but they have embarked on a huge challenge. Honestly, if this car had a 4L80E transmission, I probably wouldn't be as skeptical. Using a manual transmission will present them with the biggest challenges. The weight of the car will also be critical. If this thing ends up being over 3300 pounds, it will make it that much harder to achieve all intended goals. Their manual transmission should really be a dog-ring box with a programmable flat-shift feature. I know this was planned for the Holley EFI eventually, but I am not sure as to the status of it. If I was part of this project, I would be contacting AutoTech Driveline and snagging their remaining PPG T56 dog-ring gear set for T56s. A stock Magnum T56 isn't going to cut it in my opinion.

http://www.autotechdriveline.com/p_gearkitsale.shtml

For drag racing this car should also be setup with a McLeod SoftLoc clutch. That will help tremendously with the 60' times and same the rest of the driveline. Using a sledge hammer engine with a sledge hammer clutch is a recipe for broken parts.

The combination of a SoftLoc clutch, dogring transmission, and flat-shift capability will go a long way towards putting this car into the 8's. The SoftLoc shouldn't be a liability on the street or road course. It can be adjusted for more spring pressure for those conditions.

Andrew
Well real 15" slicks would cure any problems but with the 18" drag radials producing 1.29 second short times who can argue? Regarding an auto tranny that is surely the Devil's work. I am totally on board with staying with a manual tranny. I love the suggestion of swapping to dog engagement gear but why not just go straight to a sequential gearbox. Fits circuit, drag racing and street use. Obviously the flat shift function is integrated into the gear lever in that scenario too.

NYC

06-18-2011, 05:09 AM

This project is really unfair. Imagine from the crap to luxurious car. I really love it. :D

+1 :-)

SRD art

06-20-2011, 03:35 PM

Wow!Those are some lofty goals. If you guys pull it off it will set a standard that takes everything to the next level. Good luck! :hail:

rustomatic

06-20-2011, 07:47 PM

Big Red, anyone?

seancarole

06-22-2011, 06:22 PM

1300 hp and banging gears Wheee!!!! All in one one for all

gearbanger

06-23-2011, 10:13 AM

When are we going to see this 8 second pass?!

craigs73

07-19-2011, 07:45 PM

any updates?

parsonsj

07-19-2011, 09:21 PM

I'm working on the fuel tank/fuel pump setup for Unfair this week and next. Even more importantly, we've got the engine portion of the project back on track... I got some parts today for that. More parts will be coming next week, and then the engine building will commence.

The intermission is over... it's time for the 2nd act. :)

seancarole

08-13-2011, 04:42 AM

Updates please

ProdigyCustoms

08-14-2011, 06:21 AM

Our move to the new building back burner ed the project for us. All my weekends and nights we normally work on this project have been dedicated to building out the new facility. And in the meantime some of the out source companies were having issues doing their thing.

Biggest of those issues was with the engine. Pat Musi was going to do the engine and got busy with his Pro Mod program so the motor got back burner ed there. Then a couple months ago Pat had a nasty accident and broke his vertebrate! Which meant the engine was no longer going to get the personal attention from Pat we all wanted the engine to have. So we mutually agreed it would be best for all involved for Prodigy Power to bring the engine build in house.

So the badd Ass list of parts, RHS block, Mast Black Label 6 bolt heads, Manley rotating assembly, Kenne Bell blower, all arrived at Prodigy now and the engine build will happen very soon now.

FYI, this makes for 5 different blower LS engine projects using 3 different blowers, Kenne Bell, Magna Charger and Whipple on 4 different size engines, 6.0, 6.2, 418CI and 441CI all being built right now at Prodigy Power with horsepowers from 650 to 1200!

John went racing last week in Kansas and when he returns will be welding up the aluminum Vaporworx tank over the next couple weeks.

After the engine and tank it all lays fully my my shoulders to get the body painted but we have a few customer projects that come first right now as we play catch up after the move.

So in the next couple weeks we will post up some pics of the tank (really, really cool stuff) and some dyno videos that should interrupt you Internet signal!

rem338um

08-20-2011, 02:33 PM

IMO..Lsx454 w/Callies crank,Oliver rods,Mahle coated skirt pistons w 8.5 comp,Trick Flow CNC ported heads,twin 76mm turbo's,spec out a hyd roller cam,custom 16 injector intake-60lbs primary and boost referenced 165lb's,TWin fuel pumps setup the same way,run separate 5 gal cell in trunk for race gas off second pump,electronic boost controller-so no re-tune or swap pulleys needed,,,Snow meth injection will help, KB blower's r awesome but the belt sucks up horsepower..Transzilla 6 speed and Mcleod twin disc to start with..Also a fan of E-85!! My driver made 833 rwhp on 12 lbs and E85--8 s with a stick take's alot of practice..Good luck CAr will b cool..

parsonsj

08-23-2011, 05:50 AM

It’s been a while, but work on our Project Unfair is underway again. After my last project (II Much), I vowed not to ever use drag-racing parts for fuel delivery again. I was able to get that system to work most of the time, but eventually heat would cause cavitation, vapor-lock, and failure.

Instead, I worked with Carl Casanova at Vaporworx on our fuel tank. Unfair requires a wider range of fuel delivery than most cars since we’re expecting decent mileage while cruising, and 1200+ horsepower when running full-boogie for a quarter-mile pass or running the standing mile. As Carl calculated that means fuel needs range from 4 gallons per hour to 130 gallons per hour!

VaporWorx provides late-model GM fuel pump solutions to hot-rodders. These fuel modules, as GM refers to them, solve many problems. They are controllable by PWM (pulse-width modulation) and so can be slowed and sped up as the engine need changes. They also provide reservoirs to reduce cavitation, and can be hooked up to Walbro venturi pumps to literally be able to pump fuel to the last cupful in the tank.

Most of VaporWorx setups use a 5th gen Camaro pump, but that’s not quite up to the task, so we stepped up to a CTS-V pump. And that wasn’t enough, so we’re running two! VaporWorx has made some tweaks to their programming to support dual modules, along with setting a ramp-up method to support our crazy need to run 18 pounds of boost on race gas. Boost works against the fuel injectors: as the pressure increases, the injectors have to overcome it, so higher fuel rail pressure is needed. The VaporWorx controller takes all this into account. It’s an awesome solution to a difficult problem.

I built a fully-custom aluminum tank with dual pump module rings, fuel level sending unit boss, fill port to use a 67-68 style gas cap, vent, and drain ports. I’ll also be using our unique fuel tank vent/baffle along with a non-vented cap to control fuel slosh and gas fume emanation.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/08/unfairtank001jpgw480038h320-1.jpg https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/08/ventjpgw480038h320-1.jpg

wellis77

08-23-2011, 07:34 AM

Nice work John!

AZSaleen04

08-23-2011, 08:29 AM

Great build can't wait to see the finished product. Nice work Frank!

Mike Holleman

08-23-2011, 08:48 AM

John, Will a single vent do the job or did you double that as well?
Mike

John Wright

08-23-2011, 09:01 AM

John, Will a single vent do the job or did you double that as well?
Mike

Two pumps may pump so much fuel that the tank caves in.......LOL

parsonsj

08-23-2011, 10:28 AM

Great question!!!

A single vent should do the job... since air is replacing gas. The pumps are pumping 2x3/8 (or about .221 square inches) and the vent is 8AN (1 x 7/16 or .150 square inches). Air density at sea-level is about .0013 kg/cubic meter, and gasoline is about .72 kg/cubic meter. The easy way of thinking about the problem is that gas is roughly 3 orders of magnitude (1000X) more dense than air, and the air port is roughly 3/4 the size of the gas port (same order of magnitude).

Another way of looking at it is if we assume .01 bar pressure difference generated by gasoline leaving the tank, (about .15 psi), air can flow through a 3/8" vent tube at about 2000 cubic inches per minute. Since our tank is about 4000 cubic inches, we'd have to be able to empty the tank of gasoline with the fuel pumps in less than 2 minutes to generate more than .15 psi of pressure difference on the tank surface.

So.. no worries of caving in the tank. :)

Payton King

08-23-2011, 10:44 AM

Nice looking tank. How long is that fuel vent? I need a short one.

parsonsj

08-23-2011, 10:57 AM

Payton, the vent is about 4.2" long, plus whatever plumbing you use. The ports are 1/4" NPT.

preston

08-25-2011, 11:20 AM

>unique fuel tank vent/baffle

Is there something proprietary/secret here or can you discuss what you mean by unique ?

How do you plan on plumbing the vent once it leaves the tank ?

I am always curious about these OEM features on our hot rods. In my case I took a -8 vent and just ran a teflon line up a few inches and then looped it and ran it down to the ground plane with a pantyhose filter over the end. Just wondering if you were doing anything more sophisticated than that.

It works for a hot rod that I keep in my shop, but if I actually parked the car in the family garage I believe fuel smell would be an issue. Always had dreams of running this vent line through a charcoal canister with or without an ECU controlled vacuum purge system. Not sure if a non-purged canister would even do any good.

Since you have some experience with overheating fuel systems, have you considered running the regulator back at the tank ? IE deadheaded to the rails with a vacuum signal coming from the front. Jody "Camjcob" swears by this method but as of yet I've been a bit hesitant to try it although it would be a fairly easy experiment.

OTOH, I have not had any vapor lock or fuel heat issues (that I know of) using dual Walbro 044's (ie one is run continuous). But I haven't taken the car on long multiple hour trips with a low tank and I don't live in a hot climate, so maybe I've just been lucky so far. I would like to instrument the fuel temp but its fairly low on the list.

parsonsj

08-25-2011, 11:46 AM

Hi Preston,

The vent port of the tank attaches to the bottom of the vent, and the top of the vent goes to a K&N breather. Surprisingly, that eliminates fuel smell, and I've tested it on several cars that had nasty fuel smell. The vent itself functions as a repository and vapor condenser, allowing fuel vapor and liquid slosh to be collected and then drawn back into the tank via gravity (the vent/baffle must be installed above the tank such that fluid can flow back into the tank without a low spot). The vent is popular enough around here that I've had a few dozen manufactured by a local CNC shop and I sell them. My wife and I joke about our fuel vent retirement plan; I sell about one a month. Last month sales doubled: I sold two.

They work well, and many folks have reported that they also eliminate the fuel slosh problem of using a vented cap on the track.

About the fuel modules, they don't need a regulator, or more accurately they manage fuel pressure without a regulator. It's way past those prehistoric mechanical regulator/deadhead systems we used a few years back. ( :) Hi Jody! ) The wiring and plumbing uses MAF input and the line pressure monitoring to speed or slow the fuel delivery modules (via PWM) to maintain desired fuel pressure in the rails. It's all based on Carl Casanova's VaporWorx stuff, plus the custom tank.

Hope that makes sense.

Protournova

08-25-2011, 12:54 PM

"As Carl calculated that means fuel needs range from 4 gallons per hour to 130 gallons per hour!"

Little back woods math: 130 GPH / 60 = 2.17 GPM guessing 16 gal tank... so empty in 8 minutes. Ouch... but I will buy a tank full just for the ride!!!

parsonsj

08-25-2011, 12:58 PM

Right! One of the reasons for the big vent/drain ports is so we can add a supplemental tank if the 15 gallon under car tank is too small. We will be on the full boogie (130 GPH) for drag racing and standing mile... neither of which should take 8 minutes. I hope, lol.

HectorM52

08-25-2011, 06:10 PM

John, I have a cheap RCI fuel cell and struggle with fuel sloshing out into the bed of my truck. Not to mention the obnoxious smell. Are you saying your piece will sove this issue? If so, PM me details - I'd like to help you make next month's sales quota. :)

seancarole

09-28-2011, 06:05 PM

any progress ??? hows the new shop?

Protournova

10-18-2011, 11:25 AM

I seen this update on another forum, hope this isn't considered bad form... Frank updated it at 4 am this morning... Very busy group of guys.

Quote:
"A few things slowed the process. We bought a new facility and moved in April so project took a back seat to the move and regular business. Instead of working on the car weekends and nights I have spent all my weekends and nights working on the new building getting it just the way I want it. Also writing and photographing a story for Super Chevy for every breath you take slows things WAY down. So far 9 stories are printed and 2 more are turned in and ready to publish, with 4 to 6 more stories after that. So when it is finished we will be somewhere between 14 and 17 stories? That will be somewhere close to 100 pages on Project Unfair!

Also made a major change to the engine and had to bring the engine build in house after Pat Musi had a nasty wreck which broke his vertebrate! He is going to be all good but has some recovery time and could not give the engine the personal attention it needed. That actually works out OK for us as our in house engine program is growing rapidly so we should be building the engine anyway. Now instead of 12 pages on our Pat Musi engine it will be 12 pages on the Prodigy Power engine.

A interesting side benefit of the delays is that some of the issues we were facing early on, now solutions have come with time. A big one was the oiling system for the RHS block. Having got one of the first production RHS blocks, there was no dry sump option that did not include a external pump which was causing major packaging and front drive issues. So for a while we had aborted the dry sump. But now we have found a solution and can run a internal dry sump system similar to the factory LS7 stuff which is WAY easier to package. So back to dry sump it is which is a real good thing with all the wet sump engine failures other builders have been facing.

So machine work on the engine is done and we are doing the engine article as we speak. I hope to have dyno numbers in the next couple weeks but have a dozen customer engines in the works right now so our toy will get done when we can.

We we started the project there was no commitment to be done at a specific time or event. None of our sponsor obligations have anything to do with being at any specific event or deadline. All goals and deadlines have been self imposed. With that said, while there is no self imposed deadline for completion, we do kinda want to be testing in the good weather before it gets to hot here in Florida. And while the weather is so nice now (brutal hot summer this year) it makes it a lot easier to get excited about working in the evenings on toys.

In the meantime my Unfair partner John has been using the extra time to dial in his driving skills. John moved up drastically in his HPDE classes and is now soloing and setting some of the fastest laps of the sessions with his ZO6 Corvette. All prepping himself to race this weapon we are building.
__________________
Frank Serafine "

ProdigyCustoms

10-18-2011, 06:19 PM

Now that is funny right there. It was actually 5AM, LOL! But yeah, been extremely busy but the end result is worth it.

When I was a kid I had this plastic folding Hot Wheels Garage with a checker board floor, a lift, a bunch of Hot Wheels and I played with it like it was the real thing.................

I got my Hot Wheels shop!

Here is a sneak peak of the shop. It is a little more finished now, will do a update soon.

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.271422596203844.75850.100000083183643&l=b622232c51&type=1

Snake Eater

10-18-2011, 07:17 PM

Shop looks great Frank, can't wait to see it in person.

Rod

10-18-2011, 07:46 PM

Shop Looks Awesome Frank!

CliffS

10-18-2011, 10:56 PM

Great looking shop Frank!

Kenova

10-19-2011, 07:07 AM

The new shop looks awesome. The next time I'm in Florida I'll have to do the tourist thing.
Did the current state of the real estate market help in your decision to re-locate?

Ken

ProdigyCustoms

10-19-2011, 07:27 AM

The new shop looks awesome. The next time I'm in Florida I'll have to do the tourist thing.
Did the current state of the real estate market help in your decision to re-locate?

Ken

Yes, time is right to buy for property value and also business increased tremendously forcing the move. And yeah, we bought the building for 60% of the appraised value 3 yeears ago and got a SMOKIN intrest rate to boot.

Now there is plenty of room to store the toys and lots of office space to add office help which we needed more then anything.

AZSaleen04

10-19-2011, 07:28 AM

Congrats Frank on the new building.

craigs73

10-19-2011, 07:47 AM

yeah congrats frank... iu might be in flordia next summer and was thinking of stoping by... thats one nice shop!!!!!!

seancarole

10-19-2011, 04:53 PM

Shezzam that floor is cool and all the life size hot wheels to boot. congrats on the new shop. GET-R-DONE

Gandalf

10-22-2011, 08:18 AM

WOW - now THAT's a shop! Congrats on the move and the upgrades. That's gonna be real nice to work in and be proud of. Makes it look more of a car showroom than a place to work lol.

(Now go call Moser ;-))

Gregg

LeighP

10-22-2011, 04:21 PM

Congratulations....a heap of work involved in moving al lthat stuff.
Looks great, all the best wishes for your business at the new location.

armourmark

10-25-2011, 06:55 AM

Looks fantastic Frank! That is the type of place I would want to work at

Chevrolaine

10-31-2011, 08:54 PM

Wow! It's quite obvious now that you'll need a new full time floor sweeper!! Hint hint hint!!
Congrats!!!

bishir

11-01-2011, 06:53 PM

Nice shop! What can you tell us about that floor coating? I have a 40x40 shop I'd like to coat.

Steve68

11-07-2011, 05:33 AM

wow, much better than the old place, and REAL office space no broom closet!!! where is it???? I was think about a radiator,

You're about the realstate market, we just bought a bigger house getting ready to build a shop out back, prolly 50x50,

syborg tt

11-07-2011, 07:44 AM

not to sound like a jerk - but are we ever going to see pictures of this build or is it on hold

just curious

parsonsj

11-07-2011, 10:16 AM

Marty,

Nope, not on hold. I can see why it seems that way, but we are actively working on the car. It's just that there isn't much to see. Our latest article on the fuel tank is in the current issue of Super Chevy, on newsstands now.

http://www.superchevy.com/toc/thismonth/index.html

As far as status goes, we're waiting on the motor to be finished, then we'll bolt the drivetrain in and get going with plumbing and wiring. Frank just got the doors and fenders are en-route. We expect to have a running car early next year, and hope to begin driving and participating in events shortly after that.

syborg tt

11-07-2011, 02:06 PM

okay I will go look at my digital copy

ps - so how are you like-n the vette

BlackPearl

11-07-2011, 02:30 PM

Nice fuel set-up.

I'm using the CTS-V pump with the Vaporworx set-up and it's working awesome.

parsonsj

11-07-2011, 02:38 PM

ps - so how are you like-n the vette?
This much! (from Sebring in early October)

51066

Mike Norris

11-10-2011, 08:31 AM

I am guessing that is turn 14 and the cars attitude at that speed looks great. Just stop breaking the column :-) Send me that pic when you get a chance.

Mike

kmcanally

11-12-2011, 06:07 AM

X2 Please

Nice shop! What can you tell us about that floor coating? I have a 40x40 shop I'd like to coat.

seancarole

11-13-2011, 05:50 PM

I know guys are working hard and getting ready building probably the 2013 SEMA RIDLER but in your spare time dont let this one leave us hanging. Just make it this one and go for 5.68 1/4 and all the fun stuff you know coffee runs for the average guys.

kukerdan

11-29-2011, 02:10 PM

hahahahhaha
Why did you start with such a rats nest?

in the words of my uncle
"Ive junked better cars than that"

good luck!

kukerdan

11-29-2011, 02:14 PM

For the money, time, and resources spent on this car, you could have something 3 times as better, or you could probably give $1000 to everybody on this forum. Seems like unlimited resources and just being silly.

My 71 gtx 440 fuel injected 5 speed with dana rear, coil overs, and willwood brakes will be comming for ya!

Norm Peterson

11-29-2011, 03:21 PM

I'm sooo tempted to go dig up my S197Forums Chit Chat hat . . . . ↑↑↑

[/tech-less post]

Norm

parsonsj

11-29-2011, 04:10 PM

Seems like unlimited resources and just being silly.Maybe I'm misunderstanding your comment, but this project is hardly one of unlimited resources. There's no deep-pocketed customer involved... just Frank and me, working on it in our spare time.

Wesley J

11-29-2011, 04:38 PM

I smell a troll....

Bryce

11-29-2011, 04:50 PM

I smell a troll....

werd

Norm Peterson

11-30-2011, 06:59 AM

I'm going to stretch a little and give kuke the benefit of newbieness doubt - it's easy enough to find the trail that brought him into this thread, that he's 26, and though he's listed several projects on his plate it does not appear that he's done much work that wasn't bolt-on or standard-assembly in nature.

But that doesn't excuse the tactic of shooting from the hip to establish a personna here, and I dare say he didn't bother finding out just whose build Project Unfair happens to belong to. I kind of hope he reads this and finds a useful hint or two.

A little closer to topic - is the engine in yet?

Norm

parsonsj

11-30-2011, 07:19 AM

A little closer to topic - is the engine in yet?Sigh. No. Not yet. The engine is simultaneously providing persona and frustration to this project, lol. Piston squirters recently arrived, block machining was re-completed (new builder was unhappy with old builder's machine work), and we've resolved the dry sump issues. Once the engine gets rolling, it will happen fast. But not quite yet.

go-fish

11-30-2011, 09:18 AM

My 71 gtx 440 fuel injected 5 speed with dana rear, coil overs, and willwood brakes will be comming for ya!

Geez, it would have to be a Mopar guy wouldn't it. His 5 speed is fuel injected too.

My only complaint is not enough pictures!

jamesinark

11-30-2011, 10:29 AM

Always somebody gotta down something that is out of the ORDINARY.I love the fact that you're using new technology and stretching the envelope for our chosen discipline.I only have one complaint that I believe Norm also voiced.We NEED more pictures!I don't have you're resources ,but I believe I can modernize my '71 RS and you have inspired me as well as others to push ourselves to be more innovative and resourceful.My best to you.

parsonsj

11-30-2011, 11:17 AM

If you haven't done so, you can see some good pictures at SuperChevy.com. Search on "Project Unfair". There's about 300 or so, spread out over the 11 articles already published.

Here's the latest article:

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/chassis/frame/sucp_1112_project_unfair_custom_fuel_tank/index.html

wellis77

11-30-2011, 10:23 PM

Geez, it would have to be a Mopar guy wouldn't it. His 5 speed is fuel injected too.

My only complaint is not enough pictures!

Don't be lumping all the Mopar guys together... After all, my 6 speed has a carb.

jamesinark

12-01-2011, 01:51 AM

I don't think he or anyone else intended to put down Mopars in general, but I my self as a rule have found a lot of die hard mopar guys to be somewhat narrow minded.That doesn't mean I'm lumping you all together,but it seems to correlate to the age as well the overall with other makes of cars in general.For example my brother in law and some of his closest mopar franatics(friends who are also mopar fanatics),whom are all younger than I by ten years or more really get riled when i used to take my '71 camaro RS with a small block and eat their big block mopars for lunch.Not so much a superior brand of vehicle ,just a lot more available aftermarket parts at the time and 10 to twenty years experience.I personally would love to have my brother in laws numbers matching '70 AAR 'cuda six pack and four speed that he has been working on for the last 7 or 8 years restoring.There is good and bad in everything and everyone.

Norm Peterson

12-01-2011, 05:08 AM

If you haven't done so, you can see some good pictures at SuperChevy.com. Search on "Project Unfair". There's about 300 or so, spread out over the 11 articles already published.

With 11 issues so far and still a few to go, is there any chance that SC would wrap all of the Unfair articles into a special publication? Seems like it'd be almost the same size as a regular monthly issue, they'd have nearly everything they'd need (I'd include a separate article dealing with the driving impressions and "competition performance") . . . and the bulk of that would be already set up to go. Be great to have it all collected in one place.

James - I don't think the pictures comment was mine. Anyway, it's odd that you mentioned an AAR 'Cuda, as I came pretty close to buying one of them new. Probably would have if the one available had been a 4-speed car, and the Mopar purists would have hated me worse for modifying it than for having been brought up in a "Dodge house" and defecting to Fords, Chevvies, and imports since.

Norm

parsonsj

12-01-2011, 07:26 AM

With 11 issues so far and still a few to go, is there any chance that SC would wrap all of the Unfair articles into a special publication? Seems like it'd be almost the same size as a regular monthly issue, they'd have nearly everything they'd need (I'd include a separate article dealing with the driving impressions and "competition performance") . . . and the bulk of that would be already set up to go. Be great to have it all collected in one place.I love the idea! Though my opinion doesn't matter much, I'll mention it to Jim Campisano (the editor) next time I submit an article. Future articles include one or two on the engine, one for paint and body, a feature article, plus at least one on "test and tune" when the car finally hits the street and track.

Cobra 498

12-01-2011, 07:41 AM

I love the idea! Though my opinion doesn't matter much, I'll mention it to Jim Campisano (the editor) next time I submit an article. Future articles include one or two on the engine, one for paint and body, a feature article, plus at least one on "test and tune" when the car finally hits the street and track.

I would be willing to bet that you could do at least another complete magazine on development of the project once it is complete. The difficulty in making a project of this complexity work properly in all it's intended applications will be a huge task.

parsonsj

12-01-2011, 08:09 AM

I would be willing to bet that you could do at least another complete magazine on development of the project once it is complete. The difficulty in making a project of this complexity work properly in all it's intended applications will be a huge task.Of course you're right. Getting this bundle of parts working together will be difficult and time-consuming -- especially with 3 distinct run modes. But that's where the fun is. :)

We have put some thought into this: we'll have a complete data acquisition system integrated into the car, including metrics for engine and chassis performance. Things like body roll, brake line pressure, throttle position, 3-axis g-forces, are all going to be recorded and analyzed. Assuming we don't get lost in a sea of data, that should help get the car into its sweet spots more easily.

MuscleRodz

12-01-2011, 09:00 AM

Blevinator

12-01-2011, 07:39 PM

preston

12-02-2011, 08:07 AM

new builder was unhappy with old builder's machine work

Ha ha that sounds familiar. Everytime I bring parts to my machinist he's like

<Mike Meyer's Scottish Grandpa voice> This is crrrraaapp ! <\Mike Meyer's Scottish Grandpa voice>

Brand new heads from AFR for example are completely broken down, remachined, new valve train, etc.

Everything that used to be good was bought up and conglomerated and moved to China, etc.

Unfortunately, he is pretty much correct :(

Doug1

12-02-2011, 08:28 PM

What transmission did you finally decide on?

Crestronwizard

12-04-2011, 11:05 AM

Is this build still going on?????????? I actually forgot about it.........are you guys working on it or is it stuck in the corner of the shop?

parsonsj

12-04-2011, 03:56 PM

What transmission did you finally decide on?We wrapped that deal on Friday at PRI. We'll be using the Rockland Gear Tranzilla T56 with the 2.29 first gear, .85 fifth, and .75 sixth.

parsonsj

12-04-2011, 03:58 PM

Is this build still going on?????????? I actually forgot about it.Guess you don't read Super Chevy? The build is alive and well. We're hopeful we'll be starting tuning/testing in April or May.

craigs73

12-04-2011, 04:49 PM

links???

Kenova

12-04-2011, 06:00 PM

We wrapped that deal on Friday at PRI. We'll be using the Rockland Gear Tranzilla T56 with the 2.29 first gear, .85 fifth, and .75 sixth.
Nice and close! Have you decided what you will need for rear gear sets?

Ken

parsonsj

12-04-2011, 07:19 PM

Have you decided what you will need for rear gear sets? We're running a 3.73 rear. See the related Super Chevy article here:

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/chassis/brakes/sucp_1109_wilwood_brake_install/index.html

links?As for links, try this: go to www.superchevy.com, and search for "project unfair". That will bring up the articles. Here's a static link to that search:

http://www.superchevy.com/sch/02/project-unfair/articles/index.html

thanks!

RS_Customs

12-04-2011, 07:21 PM

We wrapped that deal on Friday at PRI. We'll be using the Rockland Gear Tranzilla T56 with the 2.29 first gear, .85 fifth, and .75 sixth.

Cool, I have been watching some of the builds on other sites using their stuff. Seems like they have a very nice product. Looking forward to seeing how well it stands up to this build level.

Robert

BADDRIDE II

12-04-2011, 08:29 PM

We wrapped that deal on Friday at PRI. We'll be using the Rockland Gear Tranzilla T56 with the 2.29 first gear, .85 fifth, and .75 sixth.

What would this Tranzilla set a guy back?

kukerdan

12-04-2011, 09:04 PM

parsonsj

12-05-2011, 12:00 AM

I am sorry if I offended anybody, you guys read a lot into my few comments, and my intro post.
From the overuse of the word UnFair it seemed like you were throwing unlimited money at this car, and I wondered why you just didnt design a new frame, and build the car from scratch.Hi Dan, apology accepted, and welcome to the site. Your questions have been asked before and answered before. The idea of the car was to build something that could be duplicated using basic car-building techniques. To us, that meant a stock floor, ordinary sub-frame connections, etc. We wanted to avoid a high-end tube chassis, and the corresponding fully fabricated floor and interior panels of a race car. The exterior and interior of the car should be recognizable as a 69 Camaro.

As we've made progress and learned over the course of the project, some of those ideals may have been compromised a bit, but I think the car will still be true to the original mission.

ProdigyCustoms

12-05-2011, 07:33 AM

What would this Tranzilla set a guy back?

The Tranzilla Magnum in Close ratio 2.29-.75 is $4495 and we are running the lube pump (For oil cooling) and that is a $750 option.

We are dealers and will have inventory available in 2 weeks.

BADDRIDE II

12-05-2011, 07:35 PM

The Tranzilla Magnum in Close ratio 2.29-.75 is $4495 and we are running the lube pump (For oil cooling) and that is a $750 option.

We are dealers and will have inventory available in 2 weeks.

Not to shabby considering what a work horse it is.....and the lube pump option is cool too! This should be just what the Dr. ordered for UNFAIR and other big HP projects.:6gears:

preston

12-06-2011, 07:53 AM

Interesting - I bought a TR6060 last January from RSG. I inquired about the Tranzilla and George talked me out of it, said the cost had skyrocketed to $7k+ and they could hardly even get the special alloy anymore ( 5310 ?). So I paid $3600 for a wide ratio "Son of Tranzilla". I didn't even know a lube pump option existed (I am running an external electric pump). I assume that could be retrofitted later ? The service was good and the trans arrived quickly. AFter I determined I didn't like the gear ratios I had chosen, he sent me a shipping container and I shipped it back and had it re-geared, which, while expensive, also occurred in a timely manner.

"Son of Tranzilla" is a bit of marketing, I think what you are paying for is just the CF blcoker/syncros, brash bushings, and RSG blueprinting of the trans, you are not actually getting any stronger gearsets or shafts. And the cost was about $800-1000 higher than other vendors. I guess I shouldn't call it "marketing" as those things are worth paying for and I"m happy I got it from RSG.

When you say its a Tranzilla for only $4500, I don't think its their "5310 helix geared alloy" that they used to call a Tranzilla, I think its the $4k close ratio box plus the lube pump option. It sounded to me like they are trying to transition the Tranzilla name to their "normal" blueprinted T6060 boxes. Please clarify if I'm wrong here.

Is there a link to that lube pump option somewhere ?

Greg from Aus

12-07-2011, 06:15 AM

I have 1 of these being shipped at the moment.

A section of an e mail from George at Rockland.

WE BUILD A TRANZILLA MAGNUM STYLE F BODY
RATED AT 850FTLBS
RACE READY WITH CARBON RINGS 1-4 BLUE PRINTED THIS TRANS HAS MAJOR UPGRADES FROM THE T56 (NO SYNCHRO KEYS) WIDER GEAR TRAIN, LARGER INPUT AND CLUSTER BEARINGS, STRONGER WEBBED FRONT PLATE, LARGER 3/4 SYNCHRO WITH CARBON RINGS, 31 SPLINE MAINSHAFT

Greg

parsonsj

12-07-2011, 06:34 AM

Preston, that's good insight. I didn't know about the difference between the "Father and Son" differences with Tranzilla. George was confident that the transmission would be able to handle Unfair's motor, but he did tell us that it was important to take 4th gear to redline before going to 5th. And 5th to redline before 6th (assuming that ever happens at WOT).

The lube pump is integrated into the front plate of the tranny. I would guess that would have to be replaced, but I didn't ask him that.

preston

12-07-2011, 08:12 AM

I think most of what he is describing there is simply the upgrades from a T56 to a T6060 "Magnum". I still think that you are mostly paying for RSG to blueprint and put in a few special touches like their shifter bushings and syncro rings. RSG is also able to provide some different gear mixes than you will see from other vendors. Anyway I'm not trying to bring any negative energy to RSG I was very pleased with my purchase.

If anyone has a web link to the lube pump option let's see it.

sokoloka

01-17-2012, 01:35 AM

Been awhile - any updates?

Protour_Pinto

03-05-2012, 10:28 AM

Yea, What ^^^he said

parsonsj

03-05-2012, 10:56 AM

Yes, it has been awhile. I've been busy getting all the floor sheet metal into shape, along with making a fuel tank mount system. We had to cut it up the floor a bit to fit the roll cage, II Much Fabrication fuel vent, 6 point harness, pedals, and custom console. I've been methodically working on all that, and have just a couple more pieces to do. I'll see if I can get a photo or two up today or tomorrow.

parsonsj

03-06-2012, 06:24 AM

CarlC

03-07-2012, 10:37 AM

I'm liking that jp. It keeps the vapor/liquid higher than the tank yet keeps the hoses and connections outside of the passenger cabin.

parsonsj

03-07-2012, 10:58 AM

Carl, exactly. And, it makes the plumbing so simple, even a caveman can do it.

Denvervet

03-17-2012, 06:36 PM

Great idea for the venting upgrade. After it's developed there's one of those ...doh!...moments. Perfect remedy.....so when can we buy one?

Motown 454

03-18-2012, 04:39 PM

The vent looks nice. Great idea!

craigs73

03-18-2012, 06:49 PM

anymore updates

BrianP

05-15-2012, 04:39 PM

That hard fuel vent line would probably be better off being flexible so it doesn't rupture in a collision.

Operations

05-15-2012, 09:26 PM

Love the build!

parsonsj

05-15-2012, 09:33 PM

That hard fuel vent line would probably be better off being flexible so it doesn't rupture in a collision.Can you expand on that thought? Wouldn't a flexible line be more subject to getting cut or torn during a collision? It seems to me that there are many factors involved in a collision, and the flexibility of the fuel vent line is just one of many.

Anyway, I'm always interested in a good tech discussion.

And no, we are stuck in engine jail. Have been for a year or so... The project is still alive but we've put it into a medical coma to keep it preserved for when the engine gets ready to bring the car to life.

Rick D

05-16-2012, 03:47 AM

Norm Peterson

05-16-2012, 04:31 AM

I'm somewhat more concerned with the potential fatigue consequences of making a rigid, fixed-ended connection between two points that can move in any 3-D direction relative to each other that don't have a long run of tubing between them (I think I'm seeing a tubing length of about 20 diameters). There may not be a huge amount of relative movement, but if anything back there develops a steady-state resonance you'll be looking at millions of cycles.

At this point I wouldn't change it out - it looks like there might be space vs minimum bend radius and avoidance of moving suspension component considerations. But I would maintain a regular check once the car hits the street, and since it isn't a pressurized line you could relieve any displacement-caused stress with a short length of fuel hose inserted somewhere in the line if need be.

Norm

parsonsj

05-16-2012, 04:52 AM

John why is the engine taking so long?? Is it that parts are not available or is the builder just that busy? I have a buddy that used to work at Fast Times Motor Works ( when they were still open) they could turn out an 7 to 8 second motor in a month or so if the customer had the money to do so? Just wondering?It's complicated, and related to the fact that there is a Super Chevy article tied to it has caused a whole series of small decisions along the way. We've had a succession of engine builders who've taken the job (3) in exchange for coverage in the magazine, only to continually pass over working on it. We've also had a problem with hard parts -- the original crankshaft wouldn't work with our LS7 dry sump setup, and we are still trying to figure out the pulley arrangement that will support the massive supercharger in both "full-boogie/race gas" and "street" modes. If we had thrown money at the problem, we'd have been done, I'm pretty sure. The latest status is that we are waiting on piston oilers -- which we'd thought were already handled. Sigh.

parsonsj

05-16-2012, 05:03 AM

I'm somewhat more concerned with the potential fatigue consequences of making a rigid, fixed-ended connection between two points that can move in any 3-D direction relative to each other that don't have a long run of tubing between them (I think I'm seeing a tubing length of about 20 diameters). There may not be a huge amount of relative movement, but if anything back there develops a steady-state resonance you'll be looking at millions of cycles.I hadn't considered that. I will take your advice and make this hardline part of a growing list of periodic inspection items. Is there any literature or rule of thumb that could be used to analyze the MTBF? I've always taken the approach of securing hard lines every 6 - 12 inches. Is that a bad idea?

Norm Peterson

05-16-2012, 07:06 AM

There's a difference between clamps (aka "hangers") holding more or less straight runs of tubing to the same structure (such as a frame rail) and the sort of restraint that occurs at the end connection to a vessel or equipment item of some sort (i.e. fuel tank, expansion tank, pump) that's mounted on a different structure.

Fixed connections at tubing ends generally restrain all three force directions and all three moment directions (tubing torsion and the two tubing bending directions). It's the moments here that you want to minimize, because tubing stress is directly related, and the moments caused by relative movement can easily be greater than those coming from the weight of the tubing itself.

Intermediate clamps nominally restrain only the lateral force directions, plus the axial direction via friction. Stresses involved are very low and due primarily to the weight of the tubing and contents.

There should not be any significant bending moments occurring in the tubing at any intermediate clamp, and short lengths of flexible hose where the fuel line jumps the gap from the frame rail to the engine (which certainly does move about) keep large moments from developing at the first frame clamp and at the fuel pump or rail connection. Rubber padded clamps reduce any bending still further, as well as providing some vibration damping.

If you knew roughly how much motion might be occurring, it would be possible to estimate an alternating stress level, and by comparing that against a fatigue curve get some idea how many cycles it could be expected to withstand. Off the top of my head, 12500 psi in carbon steel is good for at least a million actual cycles, and you should be well below that stress level barring some freak resonance.

This whole fatigue business is material-specific - below some stress level, most steels exhibit an endurance limit (lines made from it and stressed below this level would have essentially unlimited life) but aluminum does not. This simplified approach presumes that there are no local stress risers such as notches or scratches in the high stress areas. It's a highly nonlinear effect, and just to give you an idea - one of the power piping industry's quick and dirty approximations of fatigue life in cycles relative to the stress level is "inverse 5th power", where if you were to double the stress the fatigue life would drop off to about 3% of whatever it was before.

You do have an expansion loop of sorts between the two ends, which has to help.

Norm

parsonsj

05-16-2012, 07:29 AM

Thanks Norm! I appreciate the time and effort you put in that post!

OK, so I think what we've got will work fine -- expansion loop, etc. Plus the fuel tank is in a bolted cage tied to the frame rails (not secured via straps like the factory method) as is the sheet metal where the vent is mounted. Adding a flexible intermediate hose will reduce stress, but will also increase the danger of a leak. I'd call that a wash from a risk POV. Also (and this is important), for the vent to work properly there can't be a low spot that would collect liquid gasoline. It's harder to ensure that with hose. One other thing: both fittings are swivel fittings; which should serve to damp resonance. I think.

Nice discussion!

BrianP

05-16-2012, 11:06 AM

Can you expand on that thought? Wouldn't a flexible line be more subject to getting cut or torn during a collision? It seems to me that there are many factors involved in a collision, and the flexibility of the fuel vent line is just one of many.

I was just thinking that the tubing might buckle if your car got rear-ended and the tank got shoved forward.

new 1968

05-16-2012, 11:29 AM

schweet build cant wait to see it in progress,maybe the traction controll out of new vett,or caddy???

parsonsj

05-16-2012, 11:42 AM

Traction control is by RaceLogic.

parsonsj

05-16-2012, 11:46 AM

I was just thinking that the tubing might buckle if your car got rear-ended and the tank got shoved forward.OK, I see your point now. I was thinking in terms of a frontal collision. Thanks!

grendel

05-28-2012, 07:11 AM

Subscribing to this build... funny, I am doing something similar, but in a truck with mostly stock GM computers for traction control, adding control for waste gates and full sampling with fuzzy logic in the controller.

James OLC

05-28-2012, 07:38 AM

Here's the prototype 2nd gen design II Much Fabrication fuel vent installed in Unfair. The main new design element is that no fuel line plumbing is inside the trunk. You drill a hole for the vent on a flat surface under the package tray and hook the tank vent line to it.

This area of sheetmetal was cut away to allow the cage brace tube to be welded to the frame rail. Now that the fuel vent plumbing is done, I need to close out this panel.

56262

John,

I'm sure that you have considered this but since I noticed it, and stuff like this is on my radar right now, you might want to verify that this style of termination of the rear bars is legal for what you guys are going to be doing with the car. For road course racing - SCCA or NASA - I do not think that this would be legal as the braces have to terminate on the body/frame and the cross bar, as you have it there, would not be considered to be either. I have seen a couple of cars fail inspection for similar designs so I wanted to bring it up - just to be sure. I'm guessing that your cage is more NH/IHRA compliant and there rules are unique so it's probably not an issue.

Cheers
James

parsonsj

05-28-2012, 08:01 AM

Interesting, and not something I had thought about. Our cage was installed by the guys at Coast Chassis in Daytona Beach, and they actually are the main sponsors of a 10.5 tire class in NHRA drag racing. It most definitely has an NHRA/IHRA influence in cage design, and we opted to do that since we have no plans (ever) to try and compete in an SCCA or NASA race series. We want to drive the car in HPDEs and not be kicked off the track after a 9.20 run on our way to 8.99.

But I will file this away for future use. Thanks!

seekins

06-01-2012, 09:21 PM

Anyone else used this modular 5link rear end? I'm giving up any hope of ever getting my other suspension so it's time to start shopping again..

wally_245

06-22-2012, 11:10 AM

Any updates? Another month's Super Chevy and no update :(

gearbanger

06-23-2012, 04:39 AM

With the way technology is moving and people are raising the bar on builds, they'll have to re-name this car "Just another pro touring car" by the time they get finished.

87camaroZ28

06-23-2012, 04:56 AM

I was at Frank's shop in Late April and Unfair was sitting among a sea of projects. He explained that between customer projects and the engine delays they simply hadn't had time to make much progress. I am hoping that will change pretty soon too.

Greg

Bowtie racing

08-16-2012, 08:56 PM

Is this project still valid?

MarkM66

08-17-2012, 03:15 AM

Is this project still valid?

Somethings can go without saying, ;) .

Flash68

09-29-2012, 12:57 PM

There's starting to be more deleted posts than valid posts on this thread.

parsonsj

09-29-2012, 01:23 PM

Ron.in.SoCal

09-29-2012, 01:25 PM

There's starting to be more deleted posts than valid posts on this thread.

Troublemaker...:lol:

66larkgs

09-29-2012, 02:15 PM

Hey guys, it's really good to see that many of you want new status on the project.

The problem is there just isn't anything new to report.

The last thing done to Unfair was installing the prototype fuel vent, and it's been sitting ever since. Frank is working off a long backlog of customer projects, and it's going to be awhile before he can get back to it.

Thanks for all the interest.

The thing i like about this build is it is a build i can relate to. No matter how bad they would like to get it done LIFE gets in the way. LIFE to each one of us has a different meaning and with me it was working while in college and just work in general. I think the guy who builds his car in his own garage can relate to you guys and it is more important to finish customers cars than it is to finish unfair at this time.
Great Build and keep it up!!