Introducing Project Unfair, The fastest All Around Pro Touring Car On The Planet!

[ProdigyCustoms]

The cowl, windsheild frame, door post, outer rockers (but are being added on to), inner rear quarters and some roof structure.

[David Sloan]

The cowl, windsheild frame, door post, outer rockers (but are being added on to), inner rear quarters and some roof structure.

Sounds like a good starting point!:)

[kamaroman68]

Maybe a dumb question but.... I recently picked up a super chevy mag and saw the article on prodigy's build. Very nice. Problem is the issue I got was issue number 2. Any way of posting the first installmant via this website? I once tried to obtain a re-print of a magazine and it turned into a fiasco and needless to say i never got it. Thanks Chris

[ProdigyCustoms]

Article 3 is one the street and article 4 is coming out soon.

The first 2 articles are posted online

Article 1

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/additionaltech_perfdir/carbuilds/sucp_1008_1967_chevy_camaro_project/index.html

Article 2

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/additionaltech_perfdir/carbuilds/sucp_1009_1967_chevy_camaro_project/index.html

[kamaroman68]

Awesome thanks! keep them coming! Chris

[Doug1]

Frank,

That media blasted second gen on the lift in the article looks very familiar....

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/additionaltech_perfdir/carbuilds/sucp_1009_1967_chevy_camaro_project/photo_11.html

I always thought it would be cool to get my car's picture in a magazine... LOL

[PhillipM]

I don't know if I'm the only one to bring this up.. But do we think Super CHEVY can fix the caption on their website from 67 to 69 Camaro? I mean really....

[uk68327]

I don't know if I'm the only one to bring this up.. But do we think Super CHEVY can fix the caption on their website from 67 to 69 Camaro? I mean really....


I noticed that too - shame on them! :box2: lol

[WEAVER]

Looking good Frank, Thats a lot of sheet metal work there:twothumbs

[Steve1968LS2]

Hey Frank.. hurry up.. I'm waiting..

;)

[DENALI]

What wheels are used in the rendering? THanks

[ProdigyCustoms]

Well, being Team Forgeline being Forgeline's number one dealer, what else but Forgeline newest, strongest, lightest wheel, the GA3R.

The GA3R uses Forgeline's new I Beam spoke design that is extremely strong and allows lightening in other areas. They are going to be SICK!

We are also using "Knockoffs" with the new GT Spline Centerlock shown below on another wheel.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
New I Beam Spoke GA3R

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
New GT Centerlock

[gmjj13]

:drool:man those wheels look good :drool:. what finish is on them?

[Flash68]

Those wheels are bad ass Frank.

[Bryce]

Frank,

What the weight on those wheels?

[Wesley J]

Frank, those wheels are in my future! Sick!

[ProdigyCustoms]

They are light Bryce, Real light. I will get exact weights when our show up.

Those in the pictures is matte black center and gloss lips, ours will be Brushed lips and matte center.

[Bryce]

Thanks Frank,

Those are good looking wheels. I wish my budget could handle that. But not on this build.

[Thomo5150]

Nice work Frank. When I read this I thought of the Bid Red Camaro!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCKdkhpUbHk

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=mJTDcMWsqd0&feature=related

[GRNOVA]

How about more engine pics. I need my fix!:pics2:

[ProdigyCustoms]

There is no engine yet, should be built next month sometime. All the parts are there for the engine, but we (John and I) have to work out the front drive system for the 4 stage dry sump and all the accessories so we can run it on the dyno.

[Tom Vogel]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
These are 345 / 35 / 18 Drag Radials


What is the diameter (not the width) of those radials?

[67 ls1 vert]

what happen to the lower rocker in front of the tire? It looks like it's missing a piece.

[ProdigyCustoms]

That is the original outer rocker not replaced yet in that pic. The end was rusted off. We are doing a extension on the rocker. I just could not wait to do a picture.

[formula]

What is the diameter (not the width) of those radials?

wouldn't it just be 335x.35, convert to inches, double it, and add to wheel width? so, 27.23"?

[CarlC]

wouldn't it just be 335x.35, convert to inches, double it, and add to wheel width? so, 27.23"?

Rim diameter, not width.

Basic formula: (Tire Section Width (mm) * Aspect Ratio * 2)/25.4 + Rim Diameter (in) = Overall Tire Diameter (in).

[formula]

Rim diameter, not width.

Basic formula: (Tire Section Width (mm) * Aspect Ratio * 2)/25.4 + Rim Diameter (in) = Overall Tire Diameter (in).

Typo. Carl's correct, it's wheel diameter, of course. I did the math right, just got the words wrong.

So...(335*.35*2)/25.4 + 18=27.23

[WEAVER]

Looks good to me

[LV42DAY]

if you guys ever do a surprise car make over, feel free to take mine :). ive enjoyed watching unfair come together so far and look forward to seeing it completed.

[kamaroman68]

Frank do you have a link to article 3? Somehow I missed it and got the mag with article 4. Much appreciated! Chris

[ProdigyCustoms]

Here ya go

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/additionaltech_perfdir/carbuilds/sucp_1010_1967_chevy_camaro_project/index.html

[PhillipM]

I see they are still promoting that 1967 Camaro.... Ugh. Idiots.

[67 ls1 vert]

I see they are still promoting that 1967 Camaro.... Ugh. Idiots.

Thats because it's printed in ink, no going back now!

[Gandalf]

We beaded the wheel lips

What does it mean to "bead" the wheel lips?

[ProdigyCustoms]

Our 345 / 35 / 18 drag radials and 15" slicks are really wide. Michael cut off the folded edge of the quarter panel lip and welded a 1/4" rod to the edge so we have a really strong and thin wheel lip. The outer wheel houses were made as mirros to the quarter panel to gain that 3/4" or so of free air the factory outer wheel house sacrafices. the outer wheel house panle was welded to the outher side of the rod.

With the thickness of the AMD panels and Michaels sheetmetal welding skills warpage was less then say 5%. A skim coat of glazing putty made them perfect.

Here are a few action pics.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Gandalf]

Thanks for the explanation Frank - nice work! After trying one of those Eastwood rollers (which my rear wheel lips just laughed at), I was thinking of just cutting half the factory lip off but I really want a nice finish, even though you can't see it. I really want the tire to fill the outter wheel well as much as practically possible.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Triming wheel lips from 10 to 2 O Clock works very well and is our normal meathod of clearance. i think rolling lips looks like doo doo. But on unfair we need every possible bit of space, and the outer wheel house mods would do no good if the lips were still there.

Here are some trimed lips

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[kamaroman68]

Frank... what happened? I actually got the super chevy magazine (december issue) and no article. I had my wife pick it up for me otherwise i would have looked and noticed no monthly article

[ProdigyCustoms]

Missed a deadline. Still waiting on some stuff we need for the engine, just got our instrumentation a couple weeks ago (baddass). So we missed a deadline. We have been ON THE DEADLINE with every issue so far, so now we are stacking the articles and by the time they pick back up in another month we will be a few articles ahead and not staring at the monthly deadline monster every month.

We will be out for 2 issues then pick back up and go another 7 to 8 issues .

In the meantime, John has been doing some really cool stuff with electrical and also working with the interior guy doing some advance interior stuff already.

[formula]

Frank,

Since we're on the subject, I'm sure that it's a lot better to clearance the fenders before paint--but is there any way to do so after paint safely?

[parsonsj]

I'm playing around a bit, trying to figure out the best way to present some of the finer points of the build. Let me know what you think about this blog entry. (http://iimuchfabrication.wordpress.com/2010/10/22/unfair-rear-suspension-and-spohns-del-spheres/)

[ProdigyCustoms]

Frank,

Since we're on the subject, I'm sure that it's a lot better to clearance the fenders before paint--but is there any way to do so after paint safely?


In a word..............NO!

[ProdigyCustoms]

I'm playing around a bit, trying to figure out the best way to present some of the finer points of the build. Let me know what you think about this blog entry. (http://iimuchfabrication.wordpress.com/2010/10/22/unfair-rear-suspension-and-spohns-del-spheres/)

I love it, very informative stuff.

Let's go ahead and show them some pictures, maybe the cute little gauge cluster? Or some of the Space Shuttle interior matieral.

[Bjkadron]

Frank,

Since we're on the subject, I'm sure that it's a lot better to clearance the fenders before paint--but is there any way to do so after paint safely?


In a word..............NO!

The only way I know of is to clearance, then re-paint.

[parsonsj]

Have a look here (http://iimuchfabrication.wordpress.com) for my blog about the interior panels: their materials and prototype fabrication.

jp

[70 Chevelle]

Have a look here (http://iimuchfabrication.wordpress.com) for my blog about the interior panels: their materials and prototype fabrication.

jp

Do you know what size the sheets are available in? How lightweight is lightweight. I wish I knew about this stuff a year ago.

[parsonsj]

Airex C70 weighs just a little more than foam core. You can easily lift a sheet of it (4x8, like drywall) with 2 fingers and your thumb.

[srh3trinity]

How much per sheet? Sounds like it is probably pretty pricey.

[parsonsj]

I don't know the exact cost. I'll find out and post up.

[wellis77]

Definitely need details on that stuff, cost, where to get it. That will come in VERY handy.

[Greg from Aus]

Hi John, how about info on how flammable it is.

Greg

[LeighP]

I helped a friend build a tunnel hull ski race boat using a marine ply backbone and the hulls and centre pod formed of Airex sheet and blocks. Amazing stuff, extremely strong once glassed in.

[ProdigyCustoms]

I helped a friend build a tunnel hull ski race boat using a marine ply backbone and the hulls and centre pod formed of Airex sheet and blocks. Amazing stuff, extremely strong once glassed in.

This came from te race boat industry, this is how we found it. Wiliiam has been working on some 2 million dollar Turbine powered offshore race boats and learned about this stuff.

[parsonsj]

how about info on how flammable it is.From the pamphlet --
AIREX® C70 has the following main characteristics:
• High strength and stiffness to weight ratio
• Rot resistant
• Good thermal insulation
• Self-extinguishing, good fire behaviour
• very low water absorption
• Negligible resin take-up

[70 Chevelle]

Frank, any chance you will start selling c70

[Greg from Aus]

From the pamphlet --
AIREX® C70 has the following main characteristics:
• High strength and stiffness to weight ratio
• Rot resistant
• Good thermal insulation
• Self-extinguishing, good fire behaviour
• very low water absorption
• Negligible resin take-up

Thanks John.

Greg

[parsonsj]

Today's update: some data and pics about the Stack dash display. (http://iimuchfabrication.wordpress.com/2010/10/24/untitled-1/)

jp

[parsonsj]

Back to the Spohn Del-Spheres. Here are the blog photos:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/10/img_1058_smalljpgw480h320-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/10/img_1078_smalljpgw480h320-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/10/img_1066_smalljpgw480h320-1.jpg

[67 ls1 vert]

Is everything going to be on your website now instead on here?

[parsonsj]

Is everything going to be on your website now instead on here?No, that's not the plan. Using the blog software makes writing tech information along with posting pictures a lot easier for me. I'll be posting on the blog, linking the information, and then bringing the stuff over here.

Remember we have a commitment to Super Chevy for a bunch more articles, so that's still our main place for the information.

jp

[syborg tt]

I like the concept of the car however I have a couple things that i must ask or should I say toss out there.

First - Why on Gods green earth would you use such POS shell? I can't believe you couldn't find a better starting shell don't you live in Florida ? Heck we have better cars here in the Midwest.

Second - I am not try to criticize here but I think the Title / Description of your project is a little blur'd. Is it really pro-touring? I mean are you really going to be able to drive this beast cross-country in comfort. It's like everything we do here in America give us an inch and we will stretch it a mile. I remember when 315's where huge, then 335 and now 345 (pseudo pro-street ). More isn't always a better thing in some cases.

Why not build the ultimate Pro-Touring Street Car that you can actually drive and put your kids in the back seat. The thing I loved about II Much was the back seat. It was actually a car that you could take your wife & kids with you to the local cruise night. That to me is and will always be pro-touring.

Another point a pro-touring car shouldn't be a trailer queen therefore you are going to have to drag a trailer behind this car. So make sure you make provisions for a hitch because I am fairly certain your trunk is going to be filled with fuel cell, battery's and what not.

That being said if the trunk is full of stuff then it's not really a pro-touring car because it's not self-sustainable. But that's just my humble opinion.

[ProdigyCustoms]

First - Why on Gods green earth would you use such POS shell? I can't believe you couldn't find a better starting shell don't you live in Florida ? Heck we have better cars here in the Midwest.

You probably have not read all 29 pages but it has been explained. one, we were looking to save one from the crusher, and two, we wanted a car that needed a full floor anyway to raise it, so why not find a car that needed a floor? And three, to show off.

Second - I am not try to criticize here but I think the Title / Description of your project is a little blur'd. Is it really pro-touring? I mean are you really going to be able to drive this beast cross-country in comfort.

Actually yes, our car on the pump gas pulley will idle like a lady, run cool as ice and cruise at 70MPH no problem, all while getting decent gas mileage, with the Vintage Air A/C blowing


It's like everything we do here in America give us an inch and we will stretch it a mile. I remember when 315's where huge, then 335 and now 345 (pseudo pro-street ). More isn't always a better thing in some cases.

If you hate those tire sizes what till you see what were running!

Why not build the ultimate Pro-Touring Street Car that you can actually drive and put your kids in the back seat.

No back seat on this one. And john and I don't have kids, well, not young kids

The thing I loved about II Much was the back seat. It was actually a car that you could take your wife & kids with you to the local cruise night. That to me is and will always be pro-touring.

II much was very cool but John will be the first to tell you know one used the back seat.

Another point a pro-touring car shouldn't be a trailer queen therefore you are going to have to drag a trailer behind this car. So make sure you make provisions for a hitch because I am fairly certain your trunk is going to be filled with fuel cell, battery's and what not.

You have a blurred vison of what this will be. However, if we go drag racing, we will need a somewhere to store the drag slicks

That being said if the trunk is full of stuff then it's not really a pro-touring car because it's not self-sustainable. But that's just my humble opinion.

LOL, wait to you see how we carry the stuff in the trunk!

[syborg tt]

First - Why on Gods green earth would you use such POS shell? I can't believe you couldn't find a better starting shell don't you live in Florida ? Heck we have better cars here in the Midwest.

You probably have not read all 29 pages but it has been explained. one, we were looking to save one from the crusher, and two, we wanted a car that needed a full floor anyway to raise it, so why not find a car that needed a floor? And three, to show off.



You are correct I read the first 300 post and then the thread lost me. Honestly as my wife put it to me once "To Much Talk Talk - lets get down to business" if you know what i am trying to say here.

As you post pics I am sure i will pop back in every now and then. Might be easier to just wait for the magazine article as it will be a nice summary of what happens here in 4 or 5 hundred post.

ps: Unfortunately I have kids ( as do others ) and I built a 2 seater and to me it was a waste of money and I doubt I will ever build another project with only 2 seats again. Trust me I've learned a lot building my little 2 seater and in the end I love the project and look forward to driving it. But I am going to have to build a 4 seater first.

However my wife would like me to build her a 62 vette for a Daily driver. But I have another one sitting in the cue waiting to get started.

As for the tires you are planning to run judging by the big old tubs - there going to be a "Biggin" kinda Modern Pro-Street for the Drag package I am sure.

[Flash68]

Frank, tell me you're gonna run that 375 Pirelli tire!

[ProdigyCustoms]

It is not the rears you gotta worry about!

[parsonsj]

The rear wheel tubs in Unfair are the same size as II Much. I happened to have one extra set lying around my garage.. and into Unfair they went. :)

jp

[compos mentis]

A suggestion Frank and JP... Perhaps add a link to any online content at Super Chevy to your sigs.

[robertjra]

i think this car will be the new (jack ass) only cooler what you are doing is amazing and lots of us are jelous so when someone gives you sh*t abought what you are doing just know its cus we wish we had the time, $, and tools to do this kind of build. keep up the good work!!!!!!!

[454bug]

It is not the rears you gotta worry about!

You guys are going to do like me and run a 335/30/18 on front, aren't you??? :headbang:

If anyone could tweak the front frame rails and front fenders just right and squeeze them in there, it would be you two crazy dudes... :smoke:

[preston]

Yeah I can't even get excited about (road race) cars that don't run 335's or at least 315's up front anymore LOL.

"They told me running the same size tires at all 4 corners would make setup and spares easier, so I did."

[HOSTILETAKEOVER]

Syborg TT, Have you seen the new Geico commercial with R. Lee Ermey as the psychiatrist? Whats with the hostility... J/K

My take on Unfair is that it was never meant to be the typical pro-tour build rather a demonstration of whats possible with all the latest, greatest, most expensive, toys available. Pick the aspects that appeal to you and maybe put them into your next project.

[syborg tt]

Syborg TT, Have you seen the new Geico commercial with R. Lee Ermey as the psychiatrist? Whats with the hostility... J/K

My take on Unfair is that it was never meant to be the typical pro-tour build rather a demonstration of whats possible with all the latest, greatest, most expensive, toys available. Pick the aspects that appeal to you and maybe put them into your next project.


Sorry if my post seemed hostile. It just seems to me that the line in the sand has moved so much that we are getting back to pro-street. Mind you I love pro-street cars and I love pro-touring cars. Maybe this car should be classified as a true "Street Fighter" since it's going to be a "Do All" car. Which no doubt will be pretty impressive.

When I think of Pro-Touring I think of Mark Steilows cars and when I think of modern Pro-Street I think of the Fesler 69. Both looks mean as hell and it seems that we need something in-between of these two build styles.

I looking forward to watching the build hower we are going to need pictures first. Sorry guys just busting you balls on that comment.

[Vegas69]

Have to say I agree Marty. Pro-Touring is a serious stretch on this one. All the compromises to make the goals achievable won't make this a cross country runner. I don't have much room to talk. I have a solid roller big block car. LOL

[parsonsj]

Project Unfair won’t be using standard gauges. Instead, we are going to use the integrated dash display from Stack Systems (http://www.stackltd.com/streetdash1.html). The Stack display has several advantages over traditional gauges:



It allows the dash to be completely visible through the steering wheel. No more disco head-bob to see the gauges hidden behind the wheel.
It’s programmable so that limits for each supported sensor can have alarms defined. Things like low oil pressure and too hot water temperature can turn on a light and then show the value of the sensor. When you’re on the track, you don’t have time to scan all your gauges to look for problems.
It allows fine-tuning of your fuel tank sensor, so you’ll know within the gallon of how much fuel is left in the tank.
It integrates with a data recorder (http://www.stackltd.com/st8956.html) so that data can be played back and analyzed later, along with data directly recorded such as sensor data for ride height, steering angle, and brake line pressure.
The data recorder will be integrated with the Holley Dominator ECU (http://www.holley.com/types/Dominator_EFI_-_ECU.asp) allowing analysis of nearly all the available sensors in the car at the same time using the amazing DataPro Analysis (http://www.stackltd.com/sw1.html) system. No more coming in after a few hot laps with some sort of vague driver “It felt a little weird” or “the car was turning in slowly”. With DataPro, we’ll be able to tell exactly how the car responds to changes in tuning, be it suspension, braking, or engine.
The wiring is dead simple. A single 19 circuit mil-spec connector provides all the connection needed.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/11/img_0987jpgw480038h320-1.jpg

Check out all the available real estate on the dash when it’s all integrated into a single display. The gauges on the lower right are boost and lambda gauges. We’ll integrate their sensors into the data recorder as well, though the dash display doesn’t have direct support for them. We’ll put A/C vents in the space to the left and right of the display, and the traditional headlight and wiper switches on the lower left.



https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/11/stackjpgw480038h320-1.jpg

Here’s a closer look at the display, gauges, and recorder. The single harness is all that is needed for all the traditional dash gauges: oil pressure, water temp, tach, speedometer, odometer, fuel level, oil temp, fuel pressure, and voltage level. It also supports display of lap times (we will be installing a lap time sensor).


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gocomments/iimuchfabrication.wordpress.com/29/) https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/godelicious/iimuchfabrication.wordpress.com/29/) https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gofacebook/iimuchfabrication.wordpress.com/29/) https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gotwitter/iimuchfabrication.wordpress.com/29/) https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gostumble/iimuchfabrication.wordpress.com/29/) https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/godigg/iimuchfabrication.wordpress.com/29/) https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/goreddit/iimuchfabrication.wordpress.com/29/) https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/11/bgifhostiimuchfabricationwordpresscomblo-3.jpg

[parsonsj]

When Art Morrison (http://artmorrison.com/homepage.html) first approached us with the idea of the transforming / combination 3 and 4 link rear suspension, we loved the idea. And after I thought about it a bit longer, I called Matt Jones (their suspension engineer) at Morrison and told him to be sure and design the brackets of the new suspension to use Del-Spheres. Matt took some measurements and they were able to accommodate us.

As a result, Steve Spohn’s Del-Spheres (http://www.spohn.net/shop/Del-Sphere-Pivot-Joints/) are all over the rear suspension (http://www.superchevy.com/technical/additionaltech_perfdir/carbuilds/sucp_1010_1967_chevy_camaro_project/index.html) on Project Unfair (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?67660-Introducing-Project-Unfair-The-fastest-All-Around-Pro-Touring-Car-On-The-Planet!), and for good reason. I first used Del-Spheres on my previous project (II Much (https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?57998-II-Much-Evolution-(now-more-pics))) when the original rod ends started to wear (after a few hundred miles) and started to transmit NVH (noise, vibration, and harshness) into the car. I swapped the rod-ends to Del-Spheres and it greatly reduced the NVH, with no loss of accuracy or articulation.

Strictly speaking, the Del-Spheres don’t have quite as much misalignment capability as a rod-end, but for rear suspension linkage arms like Unfair’s combination 3 / 4 link, it offers plenty with no loss of strength. The main body of the Del-Sphere is forged steel, with a forged ball. The body and ball are separated by Delrin rings, and the body incorporates a rebuildable and grease-able design that allows for the quiet of rubber and the accuracy of steel.

We’re confident the car will have excellent handling and ride characteristics, as well as handle the 1200 hp the engine will put when we put the hammer down!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/11/dsc_0058jpgw480038h321-1.jpg

Here’s the whole rear suspension in what Frank and I call “5-link” mode. https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/11/icon_smile-1.gif Note how the Del-Spheres are used on all the control arms except the Watts link.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/11/dsc_0044jpgw480038h321-1.jpg

This is the road racing setup with a 3 link. For drag racing, the upper control arm in the middle is removed and replaced with two control arms on the side. The Del-Spheres provide the misalignment we need for turning the car on the 3 link setup, and the strength for 1200 hp launches on the 4 link setup.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/11/img_1058_smalljpgw480038h320-1.jpg

Here’s a closeup of the Del-Sphere, screwed into one of Unfair’s 4 link upper control arms.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/11/img_1078_smalljpgw480038h320-1.jpg

Taking off the pre-load adjuster shows the Delrin inserts and how they isolate the ball from housing.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/11/img_1066_smalljpgw480038h320-1.jpg

Here’s a complete disassembly. The forging line in the housing is visible.


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[ProdigyCustoms]

Have to say I agree Marty. Pro-Touring is a serious stretch on this one. All the compromises to make the goals achievable won't make this a cross country runner. I don't have much room to talk. I have a solid roller big block car. LOL

I think we have spent a lot more time thinking through this then we are given credit for. But I understand the skepticism since we are entering uncharted territory. But I must admit I enjoy the debate.

OK, so let's debate.

What compromises?

What exactly will prevent this car from being a cross country runner?

[parsonsj]

We've figured out how to get my blog entries to show up in their entirety here in the thread. Sorry about the "older" data, but we'll have new better "My goofy Blog" content from now on.

jp

[David Sloan]

Debate on!
I for one dont see any reason why this in not a Pro-Touring car that cant be driven across the country, (Did i miss something?)

If i remember right you have a choice of boost with pulleys, that will make it a little more street friendly.

The suspension can do the job,( 3 link = street friendly,road race/auto cross friendly) (4 link drag friendly) whats not to like! A car that is well rounded an can do it all very well is the ****tttttt!

I don't know a lot about the interior but i would think they will make it nice an drivable, A/C heat, we know it has wipers as they have developed a relocation kit from this build.

So tell me what did i miss that will make it not be able to drive across the country?
Thanks for sharing.

[Bryce]

John,

What is a estimated price for that dash?
Also can you read the LCD display with the sun at your back?

[Bryce]

And I dont see why this car is not PT. Please dont make this thread into a what is PT?

[Vegas69]

Until I see the finished product how would I know? The first thing that comes to mind is a fuel system for 1200hp. Do you really plan to drive it across the country? I'm not rooting against you, I just think it's a stretch to call it pro-touring.

And guys, please don't jump on my butt to defend Frank and John. Frank and I have been friends for years. This is just like you and a buddy having a healthy debate.

[parsonsj]

I think what you might be forgetting is that the drag-racing/200 mph version of the car is a weekend transformation only.

The standard mode of the car will be about 800 hp, running on pump gas, with a very compliant 3 link rear suspension and a C6-based front suspension, and normal PT tires. The car will have a full interior, full HVAC, high-feature (though ordinary wattage) entertainment, DOT glass, etc. That's the version of the car we'll use road racing and auto-crossing, though we will probably opt to adjust the shocks.

When we go drag-racing, we will change the tune of the Dominator EFI, swap the supercharger pulley, swap coilovers, swap tires and wheels, reconfigure the rear suspension from the street-friendly 3 link to a drag racing 4 link, and put unleaded race gas in the car along with a fuel pump "add-on" circuit. Now we can go very very fast in a straight-line scenario, and this version of the car is *not* Pro-Touring. With practice, we think we can do the transformation in a few hours.

jp

[ProdigyCustoms]

Until I see the finished product how would I know? The first thing that comes to mind is a fuel system for 1200hp. Do you really plan to drive it across the country? I'm not rooting against you, I just think it's a stretch to call it pro-touring.

And guys, please don't jump on my butt to defend Frank and John. Frank and I have been friends for years. This is just like you and a buddy having a healthy debate.

You know you and I a cool to the end.

It is the Evil Knievel motorcycle jump. Half hopes he makes it, half hopes he crashes!

I know your pulling for us to pull it off.

The fuel system is a combination of a dual pump and a hoob switch. On the street one normal pump running a Boost a Pump. On kill, a second pump will kick in "as needed" so no fuel pump over heating. Yah, it is a hella expensive tank, but because it is expensive does not make it not Pro Touring.

So that issue is not a issue.

Seriously, I welcome all questions / challenges, I want to be stumped.........now.....before we finish it and make sure we did not think of everything

[wellis77]

What does a full interior look like in Unfair? If I recall, the dash and front seats had to be pushed way back because of the engine setback. Another question could be, what exactly is a full interior? Probably for another debate though. Just cuz there is a back seat does it mean it's a full interior, even though it can't be used because of roll cages? I would love to put a roll cage in my build but I won't because from what I've seen, they don't allow the use of a full interior, which really makes it not so full? Just some thoughts since I've hammered that over and over in my own head.

[ProdigyCustoms]

The entire rear seat thing is a interesting subject.

But as you pointed out Wellis, if you have a roll bar in it, no one should be in the rear seat, period. And if you are going to autocross and open track the car, you really should consider a roll bar.

So then that means if a car has a roll bar, you cannot have anyone in the back seat, which means it would not be Pro Touring? This also means Corvettes and pickups cannot be Pro Touring? I do disagree with the rear seat requirement.

As for what the interior will look like. It won;t look like it came out of Tracy Weaver's shop. But it will not be striped bare either. PLENTY of interior and sound system for a Pro Touring Car

[jknight16]

Well, given that it has to have a cage certified to 8 seconds, I can't imagine that you're going to see a usable back seat one way or another. As long as its got two seats, door panels, carpet and some sound deadening, I'd call it full interior. Race cars typically don't have carpet or door panels.

[wellis77]

I wasn't necessarily getting at PT cars must have a functional back seat to be "PT", but that is a requirement for my project. In my mind, for ME to comfortably drive cross country, meaning family will likely be in-tow, I need a functional back seat. I will say, when I hear the term, "full interior", that implies to me fully functional/usable. Obviously Corvette's, Vipers, trucks, etc. don't have back seats so a full interior (by my definition) for those vehicles does not include a back seat so exempt they are. Again, just my perception on it; not in anyway trying to define it; but perception is reality.

[HotRod68Camaro]

Frank,

Where are you planning on getting the tank from? I'm looking for a similar setup.

[ProdigyCustoms]

[QUOTE=wellis77;744028]I wasn't necessarily getting at PT cars must have a functional back seat to be "PT", but that is a requirement for my project. QUOTE]

Actually is was Marty that brought up the back seat being important to him.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Frank,

Where are you planning on getting the tank from? I'm looking for a similar setup.

We are one of Rick's biggest dealers. Hector is building a little something special for us.

E mail me with your aplictaion and requirments.

[parsonsj]

The rear seats in II Much were only for show. That wasn't their original intention, but they were *never* used for a couple of reasons. They were too hard to get into (not enough foot room), and would have been dangerous to any rear passenger's heads. So they functioned as a cover to the rear sheetmetal.

With Unfair, Frank and I agreed that we wouldn't take the weight and cost penalty of putting in rear seats. Instead William (our interior guy -- see above) is making a cool cover so that the interior has a look that doesn't remind you that the car originally came with a rear seat.

As far as what I meant by a full interior, I meant carpets, panels, seats, and restraints that look complete, without the interior of the car having that stripped "race car" look.

jp

[ProdigyCustoms]

Well, given that it has to have a cage certified to 8 seconds, I can't imagine that you're going to see a usable back seat one way or another. As long as its got two seats, door panels, carpet and some sound deadening, I'd call it full interior. Race cars typically don't have carpet or door panels.

And we WILL have removable door bars which is legal for the times we are running. John and I hate crawling over door bars. And I must admit that we will either have to crawl over them or trailer them as we have not figured out how to carry them un installed.

[Rhino]

If i remember right you have a choice of boost with pulleys, that will make it a little more street friendly.
The suspension can do the job,( 3 link = street friendly,road race/auto cross friendly) (4 link drag friendly) whats not to like!

I do enjoy the build, and could care less if this fits a vague definition, but I think you've brought it to the heart of the issue.
At what point does it become too cumbersome to make changes between "modes." At a more extreme example... what about a cam change for drivability? You can engineer the change to be much quicker with a two piece cover and remote mounted water pump.

I think it all comes down to what you're willing to put up with. Some put up with more than others. Getting back to this particular build, a pulley change is simple, but isn't filling up with higher test even simpler than that?

I do like tweaking on the car; but as much as I don't want to admit it, I wouldn't make changes to drive home at the end of the day.

[ProdigyCustoms]

So as a "Pro Touring Car" we do not need to make any changes for street to autocross or road race. We will be in race ready trim already with the only POSSIBILITY we MAY choose to add camber shims at the track. We will not know if those will be needed or not until we actually test that.

To transform the car to drag car, Drag Racing the changes will be:

Fuel (15 minutes?)
Pulley (15 minutes?)
Rear link bars, 3 to 4 link, remove center and add upper outers , these will be pre adjusted from scaling (1 hour?)
Rear shock and spring package, these will be pre set left and right complete pre assembled shock and spring packages (30 minutes)
Front shock and spring package, these will be pre set left and right complete pre assembled shock and spring packages (30 minutes)
Pin on wheelie bars (15 minutes)
Pin on Parachute (15 minutes)
Tires / wheels (30 minutes)
So 3 hours 30 minutes, add 30 minutes for whatever, 2 guys, looks like a couple hours to me.

[Bryce]

John,

What is a estimated price for that dash?
Also can you read the LCD display with the sun at your back?

I'm reposting because I would like to know! I might goes this route.

[MrQuick]

So as a "Pro Touring Car" we do not need to make any changes for street to autocross or road race. We will be in race ready trim already with the only POSSIBILITY we MAY choose to add camber shims at the track. We will not know if those will be needed or not until we actually test that.

To transform the car to drag car, Drag Racing the changes will be:

Fuel (15 minutes?)
Pulley (15 minutes?)
Rear link bars, 3 to 4 link, remove center and add upper outers , these will be pre adjusted from scaling (1 hour?)
Rear shock and spring package, these will be pre set left and right complete pre assembled shock and spring packages (30 minutes)
Front shock and spring package, these will be pre set left and right complete pre assembled shock and spring packages (30 minutes)
Pin on wheelie bars (15 minutes)
Pin on Parachute (15 minutes)
Tires / wheels (30 minutes)
So 3 hours 30 minutes, add 30 minutes for whatever, 2 guys, looks like a couple hours to me.

and having a fold down back seat with removable rear floor panels would only speed up the process.

[parsonsj]

having a fold down back seat with removable rear floor panels would only speed up the process.Nah, we'll just make sure Harry Potter is on the tranformer team. :)

jp

[nicks67camaro]

I'm reposting because I would like to know! I might goes this route.

This is probably a good ballpark

http://www.summitracing.com/search/brand/Stack-Gauges/Part-Type/Gauge-Kits-Digital/?Ns=Rank%7cAsc

[ProdigyCustoms]

We mocked up the engine and put it on tires this week. This is at full travel ride height ride height

See, I told you we were not going to wide on tires. Those front tires are on 6" wide!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[parsonsj]

Sorry, I missed the questions about the Stack display. Street prices are around $1400 with sensors, which is competitive with 7-8 gauges and their sensors, with the bonus of light weight, programmability, and easy wiring.

As far as glare goes. :dunno: Ask me again when we're driving this car aound in a few weeks. :)

[Flash68]

Frank/JP -- do you guys plan to install any of that high quality roll bar padding? If so, which? I have been considering it for mine.

[Bryce]

This is probably a good ballpark

http://www.summitracing.com/search/brand/Stack-Gauges/Part-Type/Gauge-Kits-Digital/?Ns=Rank%7cAsc


Thanks, I went to stack's website and they had no US vendors listed.

[preston]

>The fuel system is a combination of a dual pump and a hoob switch.

Your ECU really ought to be able to trigger the 2nd fuel pump. Seems more reliable and more tuneable that way.
What pumps are you using that 2 of them will get you to 1200 hp ? Never mind, I think I remember Aeromotive.

Spending an afternoon to re-configure a car for 8 second passes is nothing. It usually takes me longer than that just to prep my car for a track day and that doesn't involve swapping any large hard parts. It certainly doesn't mean the car is not pro touring, whatever that means.

Obviously no knock on Project Unfair, but I've always been surprised how excited guys get for those Stack displays. To me, while they are programmable, the display is not as easy to read especially for ancillary functions, and just doesn't provide that old muscle car look like a suite of aftermarket gauges. Of course, the proper arrangement can be hard to fit into an OEM style dash. It works well with the flat surface of my early Mustang dash though. If anything I'd like to have an auxiliary screen that displays mostly ECU type parameters (like VE%, MAT, and MAP), but not as my primary display. But the flexibility, ease of install, and weight do matter. And you're right about cost, I just spent $700 upgrading my gauges and that didn't even include the tach and speedo. Those full sweeps just look so nice compared to the older style though.

I thought you needed funny car style head cage to run in the 8's but I guess you don't need that until 7.99 ?

[j-rho]

To transform the car to drag car, Drag Racing the changes will be:

Fuel (15 minutes?)
Pulley (15 minutes?)
Rear link bars, 3 to 4 link, remove center and add upper outers , these will be pre adjusted from scaling (1 hour?)
Rear shock and spring package, these will be pre set left and right complete pre assembled shock and spring packages (30 minutes)
Front shock and spring package, these will be pre set left and right complete pre assembled shock and spring packages (30 minutes)
Pin on wheelie bars (15 minutes)
Pin on Parachute (15 minutes)
Tires / wheels (30 minutes)
So 3 hours 30 minutes, add 30 minutes for whatever, 2 guys, looks like a couple hours to me.
That looks like a lot of work, especially since it'll all have to be undone when the drag portion is complete. Why not bring 2 cars, and change everything but the driver's rear valve stem cap? If the "rules" allow for unlimited modification between events, you could even have three, one each dedicated to autox/track, drag, and street

[454bug]

Thanks, I went to stack's website and they had no US vendors listed.

Hey Bryce,

I'm pretty sure Autometer bought out Stack last year... If you go to www.autometer.com, they have them listed there.

When you get to their homepage, click on "Products". Then click on "Data Acquisition" and they are listed there.

[454bug]

We mocked up the engine and put it on tires this week. This is at full travel ride height ride height

See, I told you we were not going to wide on tires. Those front tires are on 6" wide!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Hey Frank,

You had mentioned that Forgeline was building you a custom set of 17" wheels for your drag racing... I thought you said they were going to be 17" x 4"... The wheels in that picture REALLY don't look like they're 6" wide... They really do look like 4"...

I was thinking you guys had 14" rotors on front. Were they able to get these skinnies to fit with that size rotors or did you guys go with an 18" diameter?

I would like to get some skinnies made as well for my drag racing fun!

[Rhino]

Fuel (15 minutes?)
Pulley (15 minutes?)
Rear link bars, 3 to 4 link, remove center and add upper outers , these will be pre adjusted from scaling (1 hour?)
Rear shock and spring package, these will be pre set left and right complete pre assembled shock and spring packages (30 minutes)
Front shock and spring package, these will be pre set left and right complete pre assembled shock and spring packages (30 minutes)
Pin on wheelie bars (15 minutes)
Pin on Parachute (15 minutes)
Tires / wheels (30 minutes)
So 3 hours 30 minutes, add 30 minutes for whatever, 2 guys, looks like a couple hours to me.

For what you're doing, I don't think that's a ton of work whatsoever. I hope you didn't misunderstood what I meant. I just feel that's people's sticking point. I think what you guys are doing with this build is awesome. I'm just on the side of the fence that's much more single minded. I like to, as Ron Popeil said best "Set it, and forget it"

[parsonsj]

2 hours sounds about right, once we've done it a couple times and know what tools we'll need.

jp

[newby]

I'm reading the manual for this 'traction control' system you guys are using and I have one question... How does the unit handle LSD and locking diffs? I see a world of problems with these systems.

Why would you want a system that cuts fuel and creates lean conditions? especially with a supercharged engine? The system would be betters served by interrupting the timing signal. Now that so many engines run coil near plug designs, a system like this could be progressive and very sophisticated. Was this a consideration?

With as 'unfair' and no holds barred as this project was touted to be, when you guys mentioned traction control *AND ABS I was anticipating the use of some new integrated aftermarket version of an electronically clutched Haldex/Quaife with ABS AND ignition control integration.

The definition of traction control has changed over the years thanks to the OEM's. In my book, Traction Control integrates all of these systems. The really good ones integrate steering input and other telemetry all in one. Although the system you are implementing is groundbreaking for street use, I just think its a stretch to call it traction control. The nifty launch control feature can already be handled and probably handled better by programmable ignition boxes. Beyond that, I just think its going to be annoying to drive.

Is mum still the word on the ABS system? I think bosch has a major issue on their hands with their ABS. I had a friend ask me to drive his '08 cobalt because the 'breaks were acting weird'. I start the car and accelerate to 45 mph and gently apply the brakes, the pedal is weak and pretty much hit the floor board but the car did eventually stop. I re-accelerate and go to stop again in the same manner and this time the ABS kicks in vibrating the pedal and whining like crazy. The system was all wrong. The ABS locked the right front and it didnt feel like the rears came on at all. Once the vehicle was stopped, I went to re-accelerate and the right front brake stayed locked! I could not move the vehicle! A quick cycle of the key and the and the brakes were released. Through all of this the ABS light never came on... The computer thinks all is well!

The vehicle was purchased new from the dealer and had just passed 50k miles and therefore was out of warranty. Right before the warranty ran out, it was in for service and the dealer kept it for a day fixing a power steering issue. The braking issue started soon after this service. Scary stuff. Virtually no brakes then crazy one wheel lock and diving right. Not good.

Dont take this as a digg on the project. Just constructive criticism and questions. You guys do stellar work and I love this project. I have had a SupChev subscription for a while now and was wondering what happened to the last few installments. As usual, pro-touring had the answer.

I think you should try some drag runs with the street tires and only changing the link bars out. I bet you could still coax a very respectable 9 second pass out of it and that would be enough to quite some of the whiners. Prove to everyone its still a beast without a trailer!

[Vegas69]

The main reason I challenge you guys and debate with you is due to my own car. I realize this is on a whole new scale which brings in a slough of other unknowns. However, I do know what I don't like about my own car. The closer you walk the line to a race car, the farther you walk from an enjoyable street car. If I had mine to do over again, I'd make it less radical. When I look at your build, I think radical well beyond mine. My whole pony in this parade from day one was not only about your car but Pro-Touring in general. I personally feel the whole race car thing is getting away from the spirit of Pro-Touring. I didn't know it until I drove down the road myself. Solid motor mounts, road race brake pads, road race power steering pump, solid body mounts, less than cushy end links, extra camber, etc etc etc John, my feeling was you sold IImcuh for exactly what I've described?

I like your fuel pump solution. I'm rooting for you to pull off your goals. I just hope you don't hate the car everywhere but the race track. That's really what I'm trying to get at.

[parsonsj]

The closer you walk the line to a race car, the farther you walk from an enjoyable street car. If I had mine to do over again, I'd make it less radical. When I look at your build, I think radical well beyond mine. My whole pony in this parade from day one was not only about your car but Pro-Touring in general. I personally feel the whole race car thing is getting away from the spirit of Pro-Touring. I didn't know it until I drove down the road myself. Solid motor mounts, road race brake pads, road race power steering pump, solid body mounts, less than cushy end links, extra camber, etc etc etc John, my feeling was you sold IImcuh for exactly what I've described?This is an interesting discussion, but let's be clear. I sold II Much because I wanted the equity out of it so I could build another car. Full stop.

Remember that during the last couple years before I sold II Much, I added full HVAC, upgraded the stereo, swapped the rod ends for Spohn Del-Spheres, solved the cold start and charging issues, and fixed the cruising tune. II Much as it was sold at B-J was a comfortable cruiser that still had some stones for the track. That's the starting point for Unfair. We learned our lesson, and Unfair in its street/road race mode will be a model citizen. I'm expecting the supercharged engine to start immediately, idle like my Z06, and make big power in a comfortable way.

The car will be a race car to run 8.99... but that's the idea: Clark Kent becomes Superman, and then goes back to his desk at the Daily Planet as Clark Kent once the super villain is behind bars. :)

jp

[camcojb]

Why would you want a system that cuts fuel and creates lean conditions? especially with a supercharged engine?

turning off a fuel injector doesn't create a lean condition.

Jody

[parsonsj]

How does the unit handle LSD and locking diffs? I see a world of problems with these systems.We'll find out, I guess. The unit uses 4 wheel sensors, and has algorithms based on speed differences between the different wheels.


With as 'unfair' and no holds barred as this project was touted to be, when you guys mentioned traction control *AND ABS I was anticipating the use of some new integrated aftermarket version of an electronically clutched Haldex/Quaife with ABS AND ignition control integration.Maybe next time. Even Frank and I have our limits. (shhh... don't tell Frank :) )

jp

[parsonsj]

turning off a fuel injector doesn't create a lean condition. I was just gonna say that! :cheers:

jp

[GRNOVA]

The entire rear seat thing is a interesting subject.

But as you pointed out Wellis, if you have a roll bar in it, no one should be in the rear seat, period. And if you are going to autocross and open track the car, you really should consider a roll bar.

So then that means if a car has a roll bar, you cannot have anyone in the back seat, which means it would not be Pro Touring? This also means Corvettes and pickups cannot be Pro Touring? I do disagree with the rear seat requirement.

As for what the interior will look like. It won;t look like it came out of Tracy Weaver's shop. But it will not be striped bare either. PLENTY of interior and sound system for a Pro Touring Car

I have a back seat and a roll bar I guess I am ...Social-Touring!:moon::cheers:

[ProdigyCustoms]

Hey Frank,

You had mentioned that Forgeline was building you a custom set of 17" wheels for your drag racing... I thought you said they were going to be 17" x 4"... The wheels in that picture REALLY don't look like they're 6" wide... They really do look like 4"...

I was thinking you guys had 14" rotors on front. Were they able to get these skinnies to fit with that size rotors or did you guys go with an 18" diameter?

I would like to get some skinnies made as well for my drag racing fun!

Those are my 17 X 4 skinnies and 18 X 12s. Those are 17 X 6.0 and 345 / 35 / 18 M and H Racemaster drag radials. Had them made for my Just Bring It street drag car so I could start testing how the 18" drag radials will work. My street drag car is dead consistent and almost as fast as Unfair (sounds crazy, did I just say almost as fast?). So I can run it on slicks, verify the numbers and switch to the 18 / 17 set up and start tuning suspension and tire pressures to see what they like. So HOPEFULLY when Unfair is done in a couple months I will have some tire experience and even though JBI is a ladder bar and Unfair is a 4 link, hopefully have gained some tuning experience to help dial in Unfair.

They look absolutely sick on my Just Bring it car. That car is days from it's updating and pics will come soon.

[newby]

turning off a fuel injector doesn't create a lean condition.

Jody

no, carrying a dead injector for an extended period of time does not create a lean condition... but what about the moment the injector is shut off? Carrying a plugged injector can create a lean condition.

correct me if i'm completely off base here but...

fuel timing events are initiated before valve opening and only last a few milliseconds. In effect you are spraying the back of the valve just to make sure you dont miss the valve event. this effect is exasperated as rpm increases because in essence, the injector is flowing continuously. SO, at high rpm, simply shutting off an injector at any given time will likely not matter because the fuel/valve/spark events are 'blurred'. most race engines that this type of box gets installed on spend all day at 4-9k rpm. Not an issue for these motors. However, on a torq monster of a motor like I think this thing will be, traction will be an issue at relatively low RPMs. At lower RPMs the valve events and fuel events are 'more defined'. I just wonder if the TC box has a timer and avoids cutting off a fuel event after it has started. In reality, even at a lowly 2k rpm each cylinder is firing 16 times/second right? (2k/60/2=16.6666) I guess even at this speed there is probably enough air moving and enough heat to prevent a 'half charge' of a/f to enter the cylinder, but who knows?

The other thought I had was that even if there was lean condition created how long would it actually last? Its not like you are going to to go out and do 1/8th mile burnouts on a wet track to test out the tc.

if you end up tuning the engine with wb o2 sensors on each cylinder it would be interesting to see if the o2 sensor can even react fast enough to catch the TC box cutting the fuel.

these boxes have been in use for years so I'm probably just over estimating the effects. I guess if you have a fuel injection expert on the team he must be fine with it. However, personally I would prefer a timing or timing AND fuel cut instead of just fuel.

[ProdigyCustoms]

I think you should try some drag runs with the street tires and only changing the link bars out. I bet you could still coax a very respectable 9 second pass out of it and that would be enough to quite some of the whiners. Prove to everyone its still a beast without a trailer!

Keep in mind, Unfar will still be plenty street able in drag trim. We do nothing to in the transformation that will prevent it from being a street driver. In fact I plan to take it out to play in both trims. I have thousands of miles on my street racer since I built it in 1996.

In drag trim Unfair will be no corner carver, but still will not require a trailer to drive out to the track and make some passes. No trailer required.

Will we trailer it when we take it to Pigeon Forge? California? Las Vegas? Yes. But that has more to do with logistics and carrying EVERYTHING else like luggage, tents, banners, promotional items, second car, etc.

[Steve68]

Some of you that are doubting the drivability of the low 7/8 second cars nowadays need to look at the new Hot Rod, Drag week series. At the last track the winning car broke into the high 6's and the track before he and the runner up were running back to back 7.1's changing tires and putting it on the highway to the next venue, of course there prolly more to be told,

[formula]

To transform the car to drag car, Drag Racing the changes will be:

Fuel (15 minutes?)
Pulley (15 minutes?)
Rear link bars, 3 to 4 link, remove center and add upper outers , these will be pre adjusted from scaling (1 hour?)
Rear shock and spring package, these will be pre set left and right complete pre assembled shock and spring packages (30 minutes)
Front shock and spring package, these will be pre set left and right complete pre assembled shock and spring packages (30 minutes)
Pin on wheelie bars (15 minutes)
Pin on Parachute (15 minutes)
Tires / wheels (30 minutes)
So 3 hours 30 minutes, add 30 minutes for whatever, 2 guys, looks like a couple hours to me.

Are those billable hours? I wonder if you could turn that into a business expense and catch a tax break every time you reconfigure the car!

What I want to see is an official "UNFAIR PIT CREW", a crew of say, 7 members, who each are trained in a part of the swap. One guy on the fuel and pulley, two on the rear links and springs, two on the front springs and shims, one on the bars and chute, and one to hold Frank and JP's drinks. You could do the whole car in 30 minutes.

[preston]

There isn't as much information out there on RaceLogic as I'd like, but 90% of what I read is positive. It seems to work well, in fact I wonder if that's why we don't hear more about it. I talked to the guys at RL and the guys at Woodhouse Viper. Woodhouse says as long as its installed and setup correctly it works great, and that they don't have any problems on FI engines. I too would prefer spark & fuel cut, but that would definitely complicate things as well. I understand your concerns about residual fuel around an injector cut event, but from what I understand cutting even one cycle of injection is plenty to make the cylinder too lean. REmember lean is bad, but there needs to be enough fuel to at least heat up and burn - without an injector event even if htere is residual fuel it won't be enough to light, and it is enough to light it won't be enough to damage. Fuel cut is probably better for the downstream components than pure spark cut.

Also, this is pretty much the only TC game in town other than a Motec M800 (which does provide 3 dimensional spark and fuel cut). Its a $4500 box and even though it has a lot of capabilities it annoys me because it only has 6 ignition outputs and you need a separate box to go 8 cylinder COP. My $600 Megasquirt has 8 ignition outputs, and more analog in/out channels too ! But no TC, although its supposed to be coming.

Still can't believe that people think a few hours of prepping the car for the dragstrip is some kind of knock on its pro-touring ability.

I'll reiterate for the doubters, check out YouTube - it shows Larry Larsen driving a 6.95/205 mph pass, and then cruising the Vegas strip that same night. Stoplights, hotel roundabouts, the whole shebang. Its a real street car believe it.

[Steve68]

Thats what I was talking about in my post,

[parsonsj]

Today's blog:

I spent most of a day this past weekend making a cool, nice-looking transmission crossmember for Unfair (https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?67660-Introducing-Project-Unfair-The-fastest-All-Around-Pro-Touring-Car-On-The-Planet!). Unfortunately, it sucked. To be more specific, it flexed downward 3/16″ when the weight of the transmission was placed on it. I made it out of high-grade 4130 rectangular tube, with proper welding and great fitment. It looks really good. But, as I said, it sucked.

I was lamenting this state of affairs to my friend John (a materials/mechanical engineer with a military firm) when he asked me why I was stuck on using an OEM based design with the insulating material (rubber or polyurethane) in the original place. Why not, he asked, move that material to the body side of the crossmember and get it away from the transmission itself? I thought about that for awhile and then John called back with a comment from another engineer friend of ours, Glenn, who said that the span of my original crossmember was a big problem too. I needed to make the crossmember shorter, which will minimize deflection a lot. Making the crossmember shorter meant I had to move the body interface from the subframe frame rail to the floor.

A bit of luck was with me: the location of the subframe reinforcement rib was welded to the floor at just the right location. I could weld tabs directly to the floor and they would be incorporated in the same structure used to bolt the subframe to the car. Perfect. So I made another crossmember, this time using a pair of poly rod ends (from AME) (http://www.artmorrison.com/homepage.html) I had originally bought for II Much (http://www.iimuchfabrication.com) but hadn’t used. Putting the insulating material outboard of the transmission itself makes the whole setup more compact, with a big bonus of giving me more floor space for the humongous exhaust to come.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/12/newcrossmemberjpgw360038h480-1.jpg

Here’s the new crossmember. It bolts directly to the transmission and save space and weight compared to the original design. I used spacers between the rod end and the body tabs to give us some fudge room when we put the real transmission in.

[HotRod68Camaro]

I like it. Also leaves more room for the exhaust.

[parsonsj]

Another pic:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/12/crossmember-1.jpg

[CamaroAJ]

like it, doing it, done! i don't really like how mine mounts up with the speedtech frame and moving the engine back so far. this looks like a better option, and its something i'm going to look more into before i start building my exhaust.

[Damn True]

I dig it. You feel pretty good about the way the load will be distributed to the sheetmetal?

[parsonsj]

You feel pretty good about the way the load will be distributed to the sheetmetal?Yes: the subframe attachment reinforcement "rib" is just on the other side of the floor. The tabs are part of that structure now. I will increase the weld area via a patch (like you'd do for a roll cage tube) when we put the car on a rotator later. When I drop the tranny into place the there is no measurable deflection even now. A vast improvement over the flex-member I originally did.

[wellis77]

AND using it...

Great idea John, looks good.

[Damn True]

Yes: the subframe attachment reinforcement "rib" is just on the other side of the floor. The tabs are part of that structure now. I will increase the weld area via a patch (like you'd do for a roll cage tube) when we put the car on a rotator later. When I drop the tranny into place the there is no measurable deflection even now. A vast improvement over the flex-member I originally did.



Cool. When you get the final rev whip up a second and drop it in the box with the pedal set :poke::naughty:

[parsonsj]

Sounds good! Pedals fabrication is coming soon. Very soon.

[Wesley J]

A 1400 odd horsepower motor and the tranny is bolted to sheetmetal? Considering the short moment arm b/w mount points I'd be hesitant on this. I know you have additional support on the back side but at the end of the day the weld is whats holding the tabs on. I could see the tabs being torn off.

My $0.02

[parsonsj]

The floor will move before the tabs tear off. I'll also be increasing the weld area of the tabs when we pull it all apart again and put the car on a body rotator. It'll make reinforcement patches and welds a lot easier to do.

jp

[LV42DAY]

a street car is all about perception. put me in a funny car and i will drive it to walmart to pick up some toilet paper with a big smile on my face the whole way. whats except able to one person is not except able to another. one of my cars is dropped like hell to the ground with stiff suspension. to me i like the feel, to others its to stiff and they hate the feedback from the road. same goes for motors and drive train, cam is to crazy and shakes the car, some like it, some hate it. perception is king.

[Flash68]

a street car is all about perception. put me in a funny car and i will drive it to walmart to pick up some toilet paper with a big smile on my face the whole way. whats except able to one person is not except able to another. one of my cars is dropped like hell to the ground with stiff suspension. to me i like the feel, to others its to stiff and they hate the feedback from the road. same goes for motors and drive train, cam is to crazy and shakes the car, some like it, some hate it. perception is king.

Absof*ckinglutely!

[John Wright]

The floor will move before the tabs tear off. I'll also be increasing the weld area of the tabs when we pull it all apart again and put the car on a body rotator. It'll make reinforcement patches and welds a lot easier to do.

jp

Could also weld those tabs on both sides instead of just one side as in the pics.....that will help strengthen along with the patches you mentioned.

[parsonsj]

Could also weld those tabs on both sides instead of just one side as in the pics.....Oh yes! I'm going to make a 16g sheet metal "patch" that conforms to the floor inside the tabs, weld that the floor, then weld the inner tab corners to that that. We might have problems taming 1400 hp, but the transmission tabs failing won't be one of them. :)

jp

[ccm399]

The engine mounts should be taking the brunt/bulk of the torque loads. The trans mount should only be responsible for supporting the weight of the trans itself. If the torque load is going through the trans mount there are larger issues to deal with. Looks good to me. Adding the additional weld plates will only enhance it more.

Nice work guys.

Chris

[parsonsj]

The engine mounts should be taking the brunt/bulk of the torque loads. Very true. I am concerned about breaking motor mounts. Transmission mounts: not so much.

jp

[syborg tt]

Wow - that is a great looking wheel it's now up there in my top 5 list.

I have a couple questions. I was talking with a fellow member today and I pointed out a couple things to him that he was unaware of. I know you guys are putting a full cage in this car for saftey reasons. In Illinois and most other states a car with roll cage having halo bars and forward down bars is not considered street legal.

Why, main reason being that in the event of a car accident the driver would most likely be killed when his skull bounced off the bar. Also 4 & 5 point harness are not DOT approved. All vehicles that have occupant restraint must have a "single push button" release buckles. Trust me I know all about that ticket. I even tried to explain to the officer friendly (no he wasn't) that with the simple flick of the lever on my Simpson Race harness i was completly free of the belt. Well, $175.00 later and the morning off of work I lost the battle in court. In the little truck we have Seat Belt Planet custom build a 2" wide ( not sure of 3" is legal - i took there advise ) DOT approve 4 point harness just so I didn't have to worry about officer not so friendly.

Please don't let my questions and comments make you guys think that I am dissing the idea of the car. It's mostly a concern that I would hate to see one you guys get a stupid ticket or not be able to actually legally drive the car on the street or worst case scenerio one of you guys get hurt or killed because you didn't have a helmet on.

Perfect example for me was the first fuel cell that we built for my truck we put the pump & filters behind the tank. After it was done i realized that it was so unsafe that we scrapped the tank and built a new one.


Well, being Team Forgeline being Forgeline's number one dealer, what else but Forgeline newest, strongest, lightest wheel, the GA3R.

The GA3R uses Forgeline's new I Beam spoke design that is extremely strong and allows lightening in other areas. They are going to be SICK!

We are also using "Knockoffs" with the new GT Spline Centerlock shown below on another wheel.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[ProdigyCustoms]

Lucky for us in Florida we have no inspection.

I understand exactly what your saying on the belts. We sell Shroth 4 point harness that are street legal. However A freind of mine was able in court able to prove his Cam Lock was a one hand release.

As for the cage, I agree. We are taking extra meassure to get the cage as close to the roof, as clse to the windsheild as we can to protect ourselves as much as possible. From the legal standpoint we will bite the bullet on that one. Considering the speed this thing is capable of and as hard as we plan to push it on the track, and as reserved as we drive on the street, we are putting 200MPH safety first.

[Flash68]

Frank/JP -- will you be adding roll bar padding of some kind?

I have considered this on the bars right by my dome since I drive on the street a lot. Interested to hear your thoughts on this.

[CarlC]

John,

Have you thought about boxing in the fore and aft sides of the transmission mount? The mount does see quite a bit of +/- vertical g-loading due to nasty bumps and such.

[parsonsj]

Carl, you're right: I will be boxing one side of the actual cross-member across the bent corners. Without reinforcement, you could see the xmember fatiguing eventually.

And Flash, yes, we will be using the high density roll bar padding. I've got a whole case of it waiting to be installed. :)

jp

[JohnUlaszek]

Without gusseting the x-member might yield but , counter-intuitively, I am more worried about the mounting tabs without the gusseting. Regardless, John and I have discussed this at length and we are in violent agreement that it's best to be conservative. Given the car is getting a full cage as well as SFC's and additional gusseting, it shouldn't be an issue.
There was also lengthy discussion of relative deflection of the current engine mounts vs OEM and if a OEM style trans mount could be ditched which lead us down the path of a dog-bone style x-member. During the entire discussion I was staring at a picture of the DSE x-member and thinking about my recent x-member effort (http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/miscellaneous/1009gmhtp_sparco_seats_s_w_rollbar_install/index.html).

[Ray the Rat]

Wow - that is a great looking wheel it's now up there in my top 5 list.

I have a couple questions. I was talking with a fellow member today and I pointed out a couple things to him that he was unaware of. I know you guys are putting a full cage in this car for saftey reasons. In Illinois and most other states a car with roll cage having halo bars and forward down bars is not considered street legal.

Why, main reason being that in the event of a car accident the driver would most likely be killed when his skull bounced off the bar. Also 4 & 5 point harness are not DOT approved. All vehicles that have occupant restraint must have a "single push button" release buckles. Trust me I know all about that ticket. I even tried to explain to the officer friendly (no he wasn't) that with the simple flick of the lever on my Simpson Race harness i was completly free of the belt. Well, $175.00 later and the morning off of work I lost the battle in court. In the little truck we have Seat Belt Planet custom build a 2" wide ( not sure of 3" is legal - i took there advise ) DOT approve 4 point harness just so I didn't have to worry about officer not so friendly.

Please don't let my questions and comments make you guys think that I am dissing the idea of the car. It's mostly a concern that I would hate to see one you guys get a stupid ticket or not be able to actually legally drive the car on the street or worst case scenerio one of you guys get hurt or killed because you didn't have a helmet on.

Perfect example for me was the first fuel cell that we built for my truck we put the pump & filters behind the tank. After it was done i realized that it was so unsafe that we scrapped the tank and built a new one.

Not all states have the same laws regarding belts/harnesses. A call to my state highway patrol (who administers the safety inspection program) confirmed that they don't care what kind of belt/harness is used as long as it's "as good or better than OE." I tried to clarify and asked, "so if a lap belt/shoulder harness was OE, then a 4, 5 or 6-point harness would be 'better'?" The answer was, "yes."

I asked about buckle/latching systems and was told, "we don't care. If the driver has to be extricated, we just cut the belts."

I didn't ask about roll cages, though. That'll be my next call, I guess.

[ProdigyCustoms]

As for the harness issue. This weekend a deal was cut with Shroth for Prodigy Customs to offer 6 point single push buttin release DOT legal harnesses.

But with that said, we will not run them in our car as our state does not care and I love the camlocks.

But those worried about being DOT complient in states with requirments, we gottcha ya covered

[Steve1968LS2]

Also 4 & 5 point harness are not DOT approved. All vehicles that have occupant restraint must have a "single push button" release buckles. Trust me I know all about that ticket. I even tried to explain to the officer friendly (no he wasn't) that with the simple flick of the lever on my Simpson Race harness i was completly free of the belt.
.

SCHROTH makes a DOT legal 4/5 point harness.. the belt is 3" and the shoulders are 2". This isn't because 3" is illegal but they've found 2" is better.

Glad I don't live in IL .. :)

[parsonsj]

I’ve been hard at work for the past several weeks building headers and exhaust for Unfair. I worked with Rich Craig over at Cone Engineering (http://www.coneengineering.com) to get all the materials except for the oval stainless tube. The oval tube came from Burns Stainless (http://www.burnsstainless.com). This is the fifth set of headers I’ve built from scratch, and I learn something new every time. These are my best effort yet. It is such a pleasure working with high quality materials. Anyway the header fabrication will be a full-fledged article Super Chevy (http://www.superchevy.com) in the Project Unfair series.

The oval tube is another matter.

Unfair is so low, that the only way to get enough exhaust for 800-1400 hp (depending on mode) under the car is to use oval tube. It’s high quality stuff, but there is a lot of stress in the material from all the machine work done on it. When you cut into the middle of a mandrel-bent oval tube, the tube tries to become round again. It takes a *lot* of work to get it ovalized again to weld it. The end result looks good, but the squeezing, clamping, and tack-welding to weld it to another oval tube is a lot more effort than ordinary round tube.

After this, I’ll be making custom mufflers using one of Cone’s kits.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/12/img_1406jpgw480038h320-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/gostumble/iimuchfabrication.wordpress.com/54/) https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/godigg/iimuchfabrication.wordpress.com/54/) https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://feeds.wordpress.com/1.0/goreddit/iimuchfabrication.wordpress.com/54/) https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/12/bgifhostiimuchfabricationwordpresscomblo-1.jpg

[parsonsj]

Here's another, larger, pic:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/12/IMG_1408_small-1.jpg

[67 ls1 vert]

those look cool, good job John.

[brans72]

Damn pure SEXY on those headers and exhaust John!

[RS_Customs]

Very nice John! I like the trans cross member on your blog too. Need more pics of that to see the full cross member.

Robert

[MuscleRodz]

very nice John

[parsonsj]

Thanks guys! My last two header jobs have gone really well. Having a professional lift helps -- a lot, but I think Cone's collector simulators are a big help too. I also used them with on MotiV8r's headers. They force the tubes coming to the collector to be parallel and straight.

Robert -- I'll try and get some more x-member pics up.

jp

[Greg from Aus]

Awsome John, has Frank spoken to you about my set yet?

(it's Greg from AUS)

Greg

[parsonsj]

Greg,

Frank mentioned he had a job for me, lol.

[parsonsj]

I finish-welded the entire main exhaust tonight. I still have to make cut-outs, a couple of hangers, and weld in the O2 sensor bungs, but this is how it will look.

43097

[67 ls1 vert]

thats going to be a quick turn to get the pipes in the cut outs in the frame.
Why didnt you point the pipes after the cross over toward the cut outs?
Just asking... your work looks nice so far.

[parsonsj]

You're right: it will be a quick turn to get it through the frame. I've check-fit and I think it'll go. If I have to, I can back up a couple of inches and make a slight floor notch to start the bend.

As for why the X didn't just point straight to the frame loops, that's simple: there's a floor in the way. The underneath shot doesn't show it, but the only way to route that big-ass exhaust is through the driveshaft tunnel. Notching the floor to fit the exhaust will cause seat mounting problems since that area is right where the seats will be.

Ordinarily the cross-member loops will be closer to the center of the car but they can't be on Unfair due to the upper control arm frame bracket in the 3 link configuration. Anyway, the whole exhaust is an exercise in stuffing 10 lbs in a 5 lb bag, lol. Wait til you see what I have to do to get the 3" tail pipes through a maze of linkage arms, frame braces, fuel tank and plumbing!

jp

[1969CamaroRS]

Exhaust welds look great :hail: You could always go with side exit exhaust :razz:

[67 ls1 vert]

I feel sorry for you having to deal with the rear axle area. Thats going to be tuff one for sure. Nothing that 3 days wont do. :)

[Greg from Aus]

Look great John, what size exhaust tube are you using.

Greg

[69fbodyproject]

How many hours do you have into those lovely stainless headers?

[parsonsj]

The collector is 4" round tube, and the exhaust at the frame rail is 3" round tube. In between is 3.5" oval (flows the same as 3.5" round, though is actually 2 3/8 x 4 1/8). You can see the transitions in the pics -- they are the triangular shaped oval tubes. I'll be adding oval tube cutouts ahead of the x-pipe for when we need max mode horsepower.

I have about 50 hours in just the headers, and over 80 altogether.

jp

[gEtyOpAPiOn]

interesting last post number *666*
car looks or should i say parts for the car look so cool ,when is this baby gonna be done ? i have read sections of this post but its too much haha so i just read arround the pictures ,i guess car porn its just like porn porn lol

[ProdigyCustoms]

when is this baby gonna be done ?

The original plan was to try to have it for SEMA and Optima Challenge. A couple dozen things changed that, most notably, when your building something this trick with all this new stuff, sometimes others schedules do not blend with yours. Additionally, we keep adding to the project. And also, when you have to take pictures and do articles on most everything you do, it slows things WAY down!

So John and I decided to take a "it gets done when it gets done" attitude. But I can also tell you that it will be sometime early this year.

As we speak, Project Unfair is at one of the best chassis shops in the country getting a Chrome Moly NHRA certified cage. We could not be more excited to have Coast Chassis Design on board with the project. These guys build the absolute best 10.5 tire cars in the series and do select NON 10.5 projects. Buy select, I mean they pic and choose. So we are thrilled they are doing the cage for us. BTW, huge shout out to my old friend Ed Nash for the introduction!

Check these guys out

http://coastchassis.com/

And check out this wicked new Mercedes 10.5 car they just finished. It was born a REAL AMG CAR and runs a Brad Anderson Top Alcohol Funny Car engine making north of 4500HP. The car is so clean it is show car worthy!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

They also just finshed Nate Pritchett (From Pinks) new 10.5 Twin Turbo Mustang

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif







and now it will get done when it gets done, but to kinda answer your question, early this year.

[Bowtie racing]

And Flash, yes, we will be using the high density roll bar padding. I've got a whole case of it waiting to be installed. :)

jp

Jp/Frank can you recomend what brand to use? And where to get it?

[Flash68]

Jp/Frank can you recomend what brand to use? And where to get it?

I PM'ed JP and he recommended something like this (or this specifically):

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/LNG-65169/

[parsonsj]

Thanks Flash. I was gonna look it up again, but you've saved me the trouble. :)

jp

[parsonsj]

43341

I was over at Coast yesterday to cover some final details of the roll cage build, and snapped a pic of their trailer.

Yes, I am suffering from trailer envy...

[coolwelder62]

Frank,John, the project is turning out great.Can't wait to see it finished.Scott

[sicknss71]

frank i will be stopping down to see Tim and Pete tomorrow at the chassis shop and check out the project . these guys are the best you will be very happy with project unfair .Tim is a master with the bender i am thinking of a roll bar for project siknss is in the works. ed nash

[PhillipM]

43341

I was over at Coast yesterday to cover some final details of the roll cage build, and snapped a pic of their trailer.

Yes, I am suffering from trailer envy...

Jesus! Is that thing on air?

I'm in love!

[MuscleRodz]

Jesus! Is that thing on air?

I'm in love!I was thinking the same thing!

[67 ls1 vert]

yes they have air ride. I was a truck driver for almost 20 years and my whole set up was on air ride.

[sicknss71]

Jesus! Is that thing on air?

I'm in love!

yes on air. hauls 3 cars upper deck ,work shop lower level can pit 6 cars under canopy with big screen TV in pit area. the living area is awesome too. ed nash

[Deuce4935]

Any chance of a video tour?

[audioman]

Can't wait to see the finished project. I'll be in town in March and would like to see an up close shot......:)

[trapin]

Here's another, larger, pic:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/12/IMG_1408_small-1.jpg

Building Hot Rods is cool but fabricating your own headers to this level of precision and quality is a level of bada$$ery that few will ever see.

[SickSpeedMonte]

We will be providing a engineered formula and explanation in the story. But in fast math if you assume the lump, (motor and transmission) is 800LBS, and if that lump is 60" Long overall and you move it 8" your moving 7.5% of the weight from the nose to the tail, so 7.5% X 800 is 60LBS. So 60LBS off the nose and added to the rear is a 120LB swing. If the stock car weighs car weighs 1700LB up front and 1500LB in the rear and you have 53 / 47 weight balance. If you move 60LBS from the nose to the tail you get 1640LB up front and 1560LB in the rear, and go to 51 / 49. It is a pretty big deal actually.

Now if you lower that lump 1 1/2"...................

Like I said, the story will have lots of engineering explaination

I apologize in advance if you have already addressed this in the many pages that I have yet to read (great thread btw).

But... the length of the engine/trans assembly is irrelevant. What you are doing is moving the CG of the engine and trans, which weighs 800lb, back 8". It makes no difference if the engine and trans are 60" or 6" long. What really matters is the wheelbase. The setback of 8" would have a huge effect on a small car with a 100" wheelbase, and next to no effect on a bus with a 30' wheelbase (even if both vehicles were the same weight!).

The equation for figuring it out the weight on the front axle would be:

{ [Weight of Chassis] * [CG of Chassis ahead of RACL] + [Weight of Engine] * ([CG of Engine ahead of RACL]-[Set Back]) } / [Wheel Base]

Then total weight - front axle weight gives the rear axle weight.

It simplifies beyond that quite a bit, eliminating the need for knowing the engine and chassis CG's, if you just want to know how much the CG moves relative to stock, and not it's absolute position. Then you can just tack that onto your known weight distribution.

I figured on my car it would take almost 18" of engine setback, and a little driver setback (required at that point) to get a perfect 50/50, all else remaining constant. Doing a C5/C6 style transaxle, where the tranny moves some 4-5 feet would help alot.

Looking forward to reading the rest of this thread!! Very cool concept.

[SicMonte]

I apologize in advance if you have already addressed this in the many pages that I have yet to read (great thread btw).

But... the length of the engine/trans assembly is irrelevant. What you are doing is moving the CG of the engine and trans, which weighs 800lb, back 8". It makes no difference if the engine and trans are 60" or 6" long. What really matters is the wheelbase. The setback of 8" would have a huge effect on a small car with a 100" wheelbase, and next to no effect on a bus with a 30' wheelbase (even if both vehicles were the same weight!).

The equation for figuring it out the weight on the front axle would be:

{ [Weight of Chassis] * [CG of Chassis ahead of RACL] + [Weight of Engine] * ([CG of Engine ahead of RACL]-[Set Back]) } / [Wheel Base]

Then total weight - front axle weight gives the rear axle weight.

It simplifies beyond that quite a bit, eliminating the need for knowing the engine and chassis CG's, if you just want to know how much the CG moves relative to stock, and not it's absolute position. Then you can just tack that onto your known weight distribution.

I figured on my car it would take almost 18" of engine setback, and a little driver setback (required at that point) to get a perfect 50/50, all else remaining constant. Doing a C5/C6 style transaxle, where the tranny moves some 4-5 feet would help alot.

Looking forward to reading the rest of this thread!! Very cool concept.


geez Bernie...way to show off your knowledge. You're such an engineer.....gosh!! :cheers:

[SickSpeedMonte]

geez Bernie...way to show off your knowledge. You're such an engineer.....gosh!! :cheers:

heh, not trying to show off, just helping where I can.

Being the FNG, they stuck me on CG's and weight distributions for a while before I got to do any of the fun testing.

We actually showed one of our co-workers here how to find the CG of his nitrous pro-mod, and they then used that to set up the 4 link. He's running 5.95x in the quarter now :)

[CliffS]

Awesome build Frank, subscribed.

[parsonsj]

I’ve just finished a little project on Project Unfair (https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?67660-Introducing-Project-Unfair-The-fastest-All-Around-Pro-Touring-Car-On-The-Planet!) that needed to be done to get to our next big project. In order to mount the seats, steering wheel, and Wilwood (http://www.wilwood.com/index.aspx) pedals, I had to move the sheet metal from behind the throttle pedal area away from the driver. Otherwise we’d be driving the car with our knees figuratively in our chests.

The driver’s side header needed some relief as well, so I extended a raised boss in the floor to the firewall, which gave the header plenty of room.

I cut out the offending sheetmetal in a single piece, using a combination of three tools. Two are my old standbys: pneumatic wheel cutter and a Bosch jigsaw, but the third tool is one of the coolest new tools in years, a cordless Ridgid Jobmax Multi-Tool (http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/JobMax/EN/index.htm). Using a Bosch bi-metal “blade” (the Ridgid can use a variety of other manufacturer’s accessories), I was able to cut straight and curved lines without the bother of air lines or power cords. The Ridgid uses the new-style Li-ion batteries, and they recharge in about 30 minutes.

I’ve also gotten a lot of use lately out of Bosch’s similar toolset. (http://www.boschtools.com/Products/Tools/Pages/BoschProductDetail.aspx?pid=PS21-2A) I use the little impact driver on everything: lug nuts, suspension bolts, exhaust clamps. It can really speed up assembly and disassembly, which I do a lot when I’m figuring out fabrication sequences.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/02/img_0295jpgw480038h360-1.jpg https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/02/img_0298jpgw480038h360-1.jpg

[parsonsj]

After a several month-long hiatus, Super Chevy is running Unfair articles again. First up is a wiring article:

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/interior/wiring_gauges/sucp_1103_project_unfair_1969_chevy_camaro_tractio n_control_system_install/index.html

Header fabrication, roll cage installation, and interior materials articles are in the wings, and I'm working on the driver ergonomics article this week and next.

jp

[67 ls1 vert]

wow, $2000 for a battery is just insane! I know why you are interested in it for the weight reduction but wow...
Every pound adds up.
Electronics look good. Whats the plan for the finish work over the back seat area? Are you to box over everything or let it be seen?

[parsonsj]

What's the plan for the finish work over the back seat area? Are you going to box over everything or let it be seen?We're gonna close it out, though hopefully in an easy to service sort of way. We want to make the area behind the seats not look like something's missing, which happens to a lot of caged cars when the rear seat is deleted.

[hefs72]

http://www.mechanicalmetals.com/perforatedmetals.html

John, Check out link it would be cool to do a cover out of Alum. put some nice bends on it and form it so one cover covers all your electronics. Anodize the cover. you would prob. see some of the electronics thru the cover but i know everything will be nice and neat when you get done with the wires. I think it would be cool to be able to see some of the eletronics thru the cover but not to the point where they look out of place.
later
Shawn

[brans72]

Great write up the John and Frank!!!! So John where do you get the rivet pieces in the write up? Man I wanna see more wiring on this car the write up was to short for me. Brandon

[parsonsj]

Brandon, I get the tools and rivet nuts at McMaster Carr.

The tool in the article is called a wrench drive installation tool. Here's McMaster's catalog page:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#rivet-nut-installation-tools/=az9wsm

[RS_Customs]

Looking good guys!

Robert

[parsonsj]

I’m working on a getting the human interfaces fabricated and I just finished mocking up the column connection to the steering servo. Wilwood (http://www.wilwood.com/index.aspx) pedals are coming next, or possibly mounting the seat. The neat thing about this steering shaft is that my original design used 4 U-joints with the steering shaft under the motor mount, but Tim Christ at Coast Chassis Design (http://www.coastchasssis.com) (the gods of 10.5 racing over in Daytona Beach) convinced me to look into rotating the rack so the servo pointed above the motor mount.

So I did, and here’s the result. A very clean 2 U-joint steering mechanism. Good stuff. This photo is mockup with steel U-joints… we have ultra-cool aluminum versions from Borgeson (http://www.borgeson.com) on the way.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/02/img_1785jpgw480038h320-1.jpg

[parsonsj]

Bigger photo...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/02/IMG_1785-1.jpeg

[Greg from Aus]

Looking great John, will it be tighter on mine since your engine is set back further?

Greg

[parsonsj]

Greg, yes, I think your setup will be "tighter" (if by that you mean less clearance). Stock firewall, stock column will put the shaft under the motor mount and there's less room.

jp

[preston]

I had a serious problem with the plastic bushing in the bottom of those Ididit style steering columns due to heat. THe bushing itself would get hot and the steering would get sticky - very sticky. Took me a while to figure it out because it seemed fine in the garage and around the block. Given you have the bottom of that column right next to the header I would be concerned. I originally fixed it by removing the plastic bearing and adapting a true bearing to the bottom but when I built the new car I started terminating the column inside the car and putting the first u-joint inside the car as well, so that only the shaft is exposed to the headers. Your u-joints look to have plenty of clearance though, although I would suspect an alum joint might be more susceptible as well.

YOu're in one of the funner portions of mockup, I would be envious if I wasn't so burnt out.

[parsonsj]

Hey Preston,

Thanks for sharing that. I've always terminated the column inside the car too, with just the shaft itself sticking out. But this is how stock Camaros are done, and so that's how ididit sent it to us.

Perhaps a heat shield will be in order, or maybe I'll cover the column with the inner fender.

And you're right: this is the fun part of the build. Lots of smallish fabrication projects that get whole systems up and running.

jp

[trapin]

I have an amazingly stupid question to ask......

If the goal of this car is optimum performance both at the drags and at the road course....will you be putting sound deadener in it?

[parsonsj]

If the goal of this car is optimum performance both at the drags and at the road course....will you be putting sound deadener in it?That's not quite right: we want drag performance and road course performance, but we also want decent street manners. And that means A/C, heat, defrost, sound deadener, heat insulation, stereo, bluetooth, comfortable seats, power windows, etc.

jp

[trapin]

Oh...I didn't know about the "street manners" part.

See, told you the question would be stupid. ;P

[dhutton]

Just read the header fab article. Very informative and well written.

[nvr2fst]

This is starting to look pretty good John, Im digging the "all in one" performance. You guys are doing a great job on the mag. tech articles. Did you ever follow through on the reference we talked about awhile back ago in regards to lifting the car or did you ditch that thought.

[parsonsj]

Thanks guys. I haven't seen the final form of the headers article. I stopped by a couple of places today to find a Super Chevy, but no luck. You'd think the hot rod magazine with 2nd highest circulation (Hot Rod is number one) would be easier to find!

Dave, I wouldn't say "ditch", but we've worked the idea from several angles and not gotten anywhere. I'm thinking it isn't going to happen.

jp

[nvr2fst]

Thanks guys. I haven't seen the final form of the headers article. I stopped by a couple of places today to find a Super Chevy, but no luck. You'd think the hot rod magazine with 2nd highest circulation (Hot Rod is number one) would be easier to find!

Dave, I wouldn't say "ditch", but we've worked the idea from several angles and not gotten anywhere. I'm thinking it isn't going to happen.

jp

Either way John, still going to be a great ride. Ill give you a head start on the track some day, If I dont shread my rear end first LOL, good hearing from you again, havent been on this site in awhile.

[MuscleRodz]

I skimmed throught he header article last night. Excellent write up and love the cool tools. Going to have to pick those up for my next header project.

[ProdigyCustoms]

John has all the cool **** for headers!

[454bug]

Hey John/Frank,

I was wondering if you guys purchased your Racelogic Traction Control setup yet. I talked to the guy at Woodhouse Viper on Friday and he told me the box was set up different if you were using their Wheel Speed Sensors versus some kind of factory ABS sensors... I'm ready to order my setup and I was wondering what kind of sensors you guys were planning to run? The Tech guy (Mark) told me if I could fashion some kind of factory ABS sensor/reluctor ring on to my Ford 9"/Wilwood setup on the rear and my Wilwood Pro Spindles on the front it would probably be less expensive as well as have more resolution with a wheel with roughly 50-60 pickup readings versus say 5 readings coming off of the back side of the wheel studs with their Wheel Speed Sensors... Also, their wheel speed sensors are roughly $600! He said it would perform better with some kind of factory setup, if possible.

I noticed on James Shipka's One Lap Camaro he was planning on running this system at one time and he had fit some kind of ABS reluctor wheel on his Ford 9" rearend... I think Mark Stielow has something on the back of his Red Devil '69 Camaro as well. Do you guys know if there's something out there that will work with the Ford rearend? I would then just need to come up with a setup for the front!

Any information would be greatly appreciated!

Keep up the GREAT work!! :twothumbs

[parsonsj]

Here's a pic of the rotor adapters I just picked up from the machinist. They've got a built-in reluctor and use a 12x8.75 pattern so we can use Wilwood's biggest rotors. The smaller adapter is Moser's standard part for use with smaller rotors.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[parsonsj]

I was wondering if you guys purchased your Racelogic Traction Control setup yet. I talked to the guy at Woodhouse Viper on Friday and he told me the box was set up different if you were using their Wheel Speed Sensors versus some kind of factory ABS sensors... I'm ready to order my setup and I was wondering what kind of sensors you guys were planning to run? The Tech guy (Mark) told me if I could fashion some kind of factory ABS sensor/reluctor ring on to my Ford 9"/Wilwood setup on the rear and my Wilwood Pro Spindles on the front it would probably be less expensive as well as have more resolution with a wheel with roughly 50-60 pickup readings versus say 5 readings coming off of the back side of the wheel studs with their Wheel Speed Sensors... Also, their wheel speed sensors are roughly $600! He said it would perform better with some kind of factory setup, if possible.You can see our custom rear reluctors for the rear wheels in the photo above. We're using their expensive sensors as well. Up front we'll use the C6 factory sensors which are part of the wheel bearing. RaceLogic had to make custom modifications for us so we could use the GM sensors up front and theirs in back. Plus shipping to the UK and back. :sick:

[Mike Norris]

I told ya Russell could make you guys a nice piece. They came out great.

Mike Norris

[454bug]

I appreciate the information John. That's a REALLY nice looking piece. I understand the 12 x 8.75 is the bolt pattern of the Wilwood "Hat" to the Wilwood Rotor but I am not following how this piece is attached to the rear brakes... Try to help my feeble brain understand the layout... You say the piece pictured above is for the rear brakes. How is this part installed with the rear axles in the way? Also, in my particular setup, I have the internal parking brake shoes inside my rotor hat...

Looking at the two plates shown above they have a second set of holes (5) on the inside diameter... What are they used for?

[parsonsj]

Hi Ray,

The rotor adapter bolts (via the 5 holes you see) to the back side of the hub, instead of the more common way of having the rotor sandwiched between the axle and wheel. Floater brakes are 5-6" inboard as a result.

[parsonsj]

I told ya Russell could make you guys a nice piece. They came out great.Oh yes. Russell did a fantastic job.

[Ron S]

Hey John, the brake adapter looks awesome. I always thought the reluctors rings had to be magnetic, they look aluminum. I'm assuming the sensors are a hall effects design, but I could be wrong.

The headers and exhaust are money, by the way. Ron

[454bug]

I see now... I didn't realize you guys were running a floater setup on the car. Now it makes perfect sense! That's what I get for not reading every post word for word... I wish I would have ordered my housing with a floater setup. The incremental difference in ordering it from the beginning is not so bad but quite expensive to do after the fact... I may opt to tackle it anyway!

Thanks again for the info!

[Damn True]

Hey John, the brake adapter looks awesome. I always thought the reluctors rings had to be magnetic, they look aluminum. I'm assuming the sensors are a hall effects design, but I could be wrong.

The headers and exhaust are money, by the way. Ron

IIRC most are in fact Hall effect.

[parsonsj]

Actually, you're all wrong!!!! lol.

The adapters are steel, and the sensors are magnetic. Aluminum would have saved me a bunch 'o money on this setup, as steel in 9" slices is expensive, and in strength terms unnecessary. Oh well.

[parsonsj]

The headers and exhaust are money, by the way.Thanks Ron. I'm back making tail pipes now since they need to be done before I can make my fuel tank. The Watts link makes it not so easy.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Did some tire testing last night on the 345 / 35 / 18 drag tires. Used my JustBringIt Street Racer. long story short, got 1.35 short time being easy on it. those 8.99s are in the BAG!

See more here

https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?78249-1.35-60-ft-times-on-18-quot-Wheels-Tires!&p=784064#post784064

[gearbanger]

Wow, that is an awesome 60 ft. How much work is involved to get the setup switched from drag to autocross?

[parsonsj]

For the suspension, it will involve swapping rear control arms, changing wheels and shocks, and perhaps connecting the front sway bar. One person ought to be able to do it (with some practice) in a couple hours.

We'll also need to change the engine tune and possibly swap supercharger pulleys. Changing the engine tune will take a couple minutes, and changing the pulley about 30 minutes.

[64LS1Nova]

For the suspension, it will involve swapping rear control arms, changing wheels and shocks, and perhaps connecting the front sway bar. One person ought to be able to do it (with some practice) in a couple hours.

We'll also need to change the engine tune and possibly swap supercharger pulleys. Changing the engine tune will take a couple minutes, and changing the pulley about 30 minutes.

Great Build guys!! Very innovative! In regards to the tune, if you are using the Holley Dominator (which I though I read you are) all you have to do it flick a switch for a different tune. You can have up to 4 different tunes loaded so that all you have to do is flick a switch to go from one to the other.

[parsonsj]

I’ve just finished up a major sub-system on Unfair: our floating rear axle setup. It’s all about fixing the phenomenon of “knock back” (http://www.trackpedia.com/wiki/Brakes) , where the pedal goes to the floor after hard cornering due to rear axle deflection pushing the brake pads away from the rotor. Our Unfair solution is to use a circle-track full floating axle setup where the axle is de-coupled from the wheel hub and the rotor. Using some custom machined parts, I’ve hooked up Wilwood’s (http://www.wilwood.com/index.aspx) 14″ rear brake setup with a Moser GN (http://www.moserengineering.com/circle-track-packages-and-parts/moser-gn-hub-packages.html) floater. I still have some work for a parking brake, but this setup will completely prevent any knock back issues.https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/04/crw_2091jpgw480038h318-1.jpg

[Payton King]

Are you using a Ford style rim in the back? That registar is 3.06. I had mine and the cap turned down to 2.78 to work with a Chevy style wheel. Did you put the reluctor ring you had made on the back side of that rotor adapter?

Looks good.

[parsonsj]

Thanks Payton.

It's Frank's job to get wheels that fit. :) The bolt pattern is 5x5 (so it's not Chevy anyway) with 1/2-20 studs.

The reluctor ring is part of the rotor adapter -- all machined from steel billet. And yes, it's on the back side.

[ccm399]

22 CFH.. hmmm, I have mine turned up some from the "normal" tip but not that much. I may give that a try soon. Great work John!

Chris

[BANKO]

JP, that is some nice hardware. What are your thoughts on the parking brake, pinion mount or will you integrate it into the rotor adapter?

[parsonsj]

Josh,

I'm thinking hydraulic parking brake ... along the lines of a line lock. Pinion mount might be ok (I have the room), but I haven't done that research.

jp

[coolwelder62]

Thanks Payton.

It's Frank's job to get wheels that fit. :) The bolt pattern is 5x5 (so it's not Chevy anyway) with 1/2-20 studs.

The reluctor ring is part of the rotor adapter -- all machined from steel billet. And yes, it's on the back side.Isn't 5X5 B.C for 1/2 ton chevy truck and Big chevy car(impala)?

[parsonsj]

Isn't 5X5 B.C for 1/2 ton chevy truck and Big chevy car(impala)?Could be. Moser calls this a 5x5 and it has a 3.06 register. It usually comes with 5/8 studs, but they have the 1/2-20 option which is what you see above.

jp

[454bug]

Josh,

I'm thinking hydraulic parking brake ... along the lines of a line lock. Pinion mount might be ok (I have the room), but I haven't done that research.

jp

There are a number of vendors selling them to the Street Rod world. They have hydraulic models as well as mechanical versions.

Here are a few possibilities:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/driveshaft_ebrake1254291542-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/04/0031-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/82020920in20Ford2001-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/04/82020920in20Ford200220copy-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/04/Pinion20Mounted20Parking20brake-1.jpg

Here are a few links:

http://www.tsmmfg.com/Pinion_Mounted_Parking_Brakes.htm

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Pinion-Mounted-9-Ford-Emergency-Brake,44784.html

[parsonsj]

Ray,

That TSM kit looks promising. I am concerned about ground clearance, but it seems to be no lower than than the housing.

jp

ps. Did you get the rotor adapters yet?

[454bug]

ps. Did you get the rotor adapters yet?

Hey John,

Yeah, they came in yesterday in great shape! Now if I could just get Frank to slow down long enough to call me back and swap up my order from standard axles to the Moser Floater setup... :guilty:

[gearbanger]

Is knockback and issue with a moser axle with pressed on bearings? My axles flange doesn't seem to move side to side at all.

[parsonsj]

My axles flange doesn't seem to move side to side at all.You're basing this conclusion on what you can do by hand, I'd guess. Imagine your car making a 1G turn, with all the rear weight on the outside tire/wheel pushing against the bearing, along with the bending force introduced by the difference between the contact patch and the axle centerline. That's 1500-2000 lbs of force. Moving the pistons a mere .020 in their bore will introduce knock back.

jp

[gearbanger]

I can see that. But what I don;t see is how full floating axles and all that keeps that flex from happeneing and having knock back. I cant see how a hub bearing assembly is any different that that big ford bearing sandwiched between the housing and a big thick brake bracket. Also it seems like that long axle would be stiffer and more resistant to flex that a short hub assembly

[parsonsj]

But what I don;t see is how full floating axles and all that keeps that flex from happeneing and having knock back. I cant see how a hub bearing assembly is any different that that big ford bearing sandwiched between the housing and a big thick brake bracket. Also it seems like that long axle would be stiffer and more resistant to flex that a short hub assemblyOK, I understand your question now. Floaters make two changes from traditional live axles that remove the opportunity for knockback:

1. Wheels are held in place by two large tapered bearings on each side. Those bearings are substantially larger than the single tapered roller bearing on a traditional axle since they ride on the outside of the axle tube rather than on the inside. The effect is similar to a front wheel bearing setup, only the bearings are even larger.
2. The rotor is held in place directly between these bearings on the hub, rather than being attached to the wheel mating surface. That removes the main source of deflection multiplier.

jp

[preston]

Your rotor "hats" must be made of steel. Are you painting or powdercoating ? Do you have a weight comparison to a standard aluminum disc ? Although it must be 3 times heavier than the aluminum part its probably pretty negligible. Still, that's not what we want, did you consider machining a reluctor and bolting it to an appropriate "hat" ?

I see you made a pair available to Ray - I can see a future where I need a part like this will I be able to call Prodigy and have a pair made at some point?

[parsonsj]

Hi Preston,

Yes, the rotor adapters are made of steel since the sensors are magnetic. Aluminum would have been cheaper and easier, and certainly up to the job except for the magnetic part. Making the part "two piece" where the reluctor part is steel and the rest aluminum was considered, but too expensive to machine in small quantities.

The best possible solution would be to use a Hall effect sensor and have the reluctor made of aluminum. But that's not a viable option for the RaceLogic traction controller.

As far as making more, contact me. I had two sets made this time, and paid a premium price. My machinist wants a minimum run of 10 next time (5 sets) so I'd want to have a few folks lined up. But they do solve several problems at once. Perhaps this item would eventually outsell my fuel vents. :)

jp

[454bug]

Hey Preston,

I'll weigh the parts when I make the swap out but since I'm going from a rear brake kit with an internal parking brake, I don't think I will be paying any weight penalties... My rotor hat is already steel with the internal brake shoe surface built into it. I have the weight of the backing plates, the mechanical arms, and the parking brake shoes. I would be willing to bet this whole setup versus John's custom billet steel rotor adaptors with a small "puck-style" parking brake either mounted on the brake rotors or the pinion snout would not be any heavier.

These two compared:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/04/1409219R_kitlgg-1.jpg https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/04/DSC064111-1.jpg

Along with this:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/04/Billet_Spot_Caliperlg1-1.jpg https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/04/Mech_Spot_Caliperlg1-1.jpg

or this:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/04/ebrakepic-1.jpg https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/04/00311-1.jpg

That's my guess. I'll have actual numbers and pictures when I receive my Moser floater system from Prodigy.

[parsonsj]

Hey guys,

I can't remember if we've posted these two links yet. Here is the wiring fab story from March and the April header story:

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/interior/wiring_gauges/sucp_1103_project_unfair_1969_chevy_camaro_tractio n_control_system_install/index.html

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/engines_drivetrain/cams_heads_valvetrain/sucp_1104_how_to_make_custom_headers/index.html

[coolwelder62]

Very nice job on the header's.Can't wait to see more.

[THIELMETALFABRICATION]

i love the nylon mess tubing ,and the large plug connectors , thats way better then even factory ... iam very picky when it comes to wiring ,and organizing..... and currently building a complete wire harness from scratch .so im glad i found u guys lol ( were can i get the mess and connectors in bulk and different sizes ????)

[syborg tt]

John

The headers look great and the welds look perfect.

Got a question it looks like the oil pan hang way below the frame. Are you guys worried about ground clearence ?

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/04/sucp110414ohowtomakecustomheaders-1.jpg

[parsonsj]

Hey Marty,

Yes, that's a concern, but not much more than any other first gen Camaro. The pan isn't more than 1/2" lower than the front crossmember, it's just that with the engine setback it's more exposed. The farther the pan goes towards the middle of the car the more exposed it gets. The pan and headers will have about 5" of ground clearance. Not enough to go off-road, but it should be fine on the street and the track.

Just out of the photo is a supplementary crossmember (that ties the set-back engine mounts back to the main crossmember) that has the same clearance as the pan. We are considering adding a skid plate that attaches to both the main and supplementary crossmembers to provide more protection.

jp

[syborg tt]

The pan and headers will have about 5" of ground clearance. Not enough to go off-road, but it should be fine on the street and the track.

Okay that cracked me up.

Five inches is a bunch of clearence and I like the idea of the skid plate just in case You never know what you might hit if you happen to go off track.

[parsonsj]

You never know what you might hit if you happen to go off track.Ain't that the truth!

[Cdog]

Very cool! I'm looking forward to putting a pair of those headers on Ginger.

[Memphis]

Did some tire testing last night on the 345 / 35 / 18 drag tires. Used my JustBringIt Street Racer. long story short, got 1.35 short time being easy on it. those 8.99s are in the BAG!

See more here

https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?78249-1.35-60-ft-times-on-18-quot-Wheels-Tires!&p=784064#post784064
I haven't been on in a while but is a manual trans still in the plans for Unfair? Going 8's with a auto on 18's I see happening, well it has happened but going 8's on 18's with a stick?