R they really that Fast?

[badazz81z28]

What I was trying to say is buying a $2000 radiator is not required to have a high performing dependable car. CAn you really say $2500 headers perform that much greater than the $350 pair I run? Some parts are overkill and don't yield any more dependability or strength over lower priced parts. Unless the majority can chime in and confirm. Who is upgrading t56 magnums to support 550 rwhp?

[shortrack]

Look here for complete front ends http://www.howeracing.com/p-7861-rt-road-race.aspx

or here http://www.howeracing.com/p-7340-reworked-oem.aspx

[71RS/SS396]

What I was trying to say is buying a $2000 radiator is not required to have a high performing dependable car. CAn you really say $2500 headers perform that much greater than the $350 pair I run? Some parts are overkill and don't yield any more dependability or strength over lower priced parts. Unless the majority can chime in and confirm. Who is upgrading t56 magnums to support 550 rwhp?

Could I have found cheaper headers to get the job done? Maybe, but as I said before we built the car in 8 months so time was at a premium, I went with parts that I knew would fit and get the job done. Updating the trans isn't all about the power, it also has to do with durability from the heat and constant high rpm's, I saw 2 guys break out of the box magnums at the Heidts event. The price on the radiator seems high until you factor in the built in coolers and the fans, price a high quality racing radiator, then price a couple of high quality oil coolers and a pair of quality fans, there's also packaging to consider, it's far easier to package my radiator with the coolers than it is to package and plumb a radiator and 2 separate coolers, not to mention you are putting more weight more further forward in the car.

[srh3trinity]

I can't believe the debate over this is still going. I guess one of you guys is going to have to build a car that fits into your sub 50K budget and take it to every event that either Finch or the DSE folks go to and A)keep up with and/or beat their times and B)keep your receipts and keep up with what you have to replace as you beat on a car that hard. In all fairness, if Finch or DSE had to replace a part, you would get a pass if you had to replace a similar part. The car would have to be pretty road friendly too as from what I have seen, the Test Cars and Finch's Camaro look like they would be capable of being driven on trips to and from these events (you could trailer to the ones they do). That is the only way you could prove that the car was equivocal in the first place and that it is as durable. I think you would have to keep your receipts for any parts in building the car but whatever work you do doesn't go into the equation. Now there is an idea for a TV show and a really cool challenge. I for one would love to see it as I would try to duplicate it if the experiment was successful. My car will hopefully be a sub-50K car, but I don't have any thoughts that it would be comparable to the cars referenced at the beginning of this discussion. This is a very expensive hobby.

[Crestronwizard]

I can't believe the debate over this is still going. I guess one of you guys is going to have to build a car that fits into your sub 50K budget and take it to every event that either Finch or the DSE folks go to and A)keep up with and/or beat their times and B)keep your receipts and keep up with what you have to replace as you beat on a car that hard. In all fairness, if Finch or DSE had to replace a part, you would get a pass if you had to replace a similar part. The car would have to be pretty road friendly too as from what I have seen, the Test Cars and Finch's Camaro look like they would be capable of being driven on trips to and from these events (you could trailer to the ones they do). That is the only way you could prove that the car was equivocal in the first place and that it is as durable. I think you would have to keep your receipts for any parts in building the car but whatever work you do doesn't go into the equation. Now there is an idea for a TV show and a really cool challenge. I for one would love to see it as I would try to duplicate it if the experiment was successful. My car will hopefully be a sub-50K car, but I don't have any thoughts that it would be comparable to the cars referenced at the beginning of this discussion. This is a very expensive hobby.

I'd Watch...........I was over $50k 18 months ago

[badazz81z28]

I can't believe the debate over this is still going. I guess one of you guys is going to have to build a car that fits into your sub 50K budget and take it to every event that either Finch or the DSE folks go to and A)keep up with and/or beat their times and B)keep your receipts and keep up with what you have to replace as you beat on a car that hard. In all fairness, if Finch or DSE had to replace a part, you would get a pass if you had to replace a similar part. The car would have to be pretty road friendly too as from what I have seen, the Test Cars and Finch's Camaro look like they would be capable of being driven on trips to and from these events (you could trailer to the ones they do). That is the only way you could prove that the car was equivocal in the first place and that it is as durable. I think you would have to keep your receipts for any parts in building the car but whatever work you do doesn't go into the equation. Now there is an idea for a TV show and a really cool challenge. I for one would love to see it as I would try to duplicate it if the experiment was successful. My car will hopefully be a sub-50K car, but I don't have any thoughts that it would be comparable to the cars referenced at the beginning of this discussion. This is a very expensive hobby.

ummm....Pozzi? In all fairness there are numerous low buck cars that can carry their own.

[72BBSwinger]

When it turns into checkbook racing, I forfeit. I learned a long time ago that trying to keep up with people with more cabbage than me is unhealthy for my survival. I look at what I have in my car and what else is out there and I ask myself, " And I thought Chevys were cheap to build?" They USED to be. Its great that this hobby is thriving and its also great to see American iron with American parts. A car is as capable as the nut behind the wheel.

[Matt@BOS]

ummm....Pozzi? In all fairness there are numerous low buck cars that can carry their own.

This is just never going to end, is it? I hate to break it to you, but Mary's car is worth way more than 50K.

Which other cars are you thinking of besides Mary's car?

I can think of a few cars that you might be able to build for 50k after purchasing the car, but I can literally only think of three out west. The catch is that we would be talking the cost to duplicate these cars, and these cars have a ton of hours devoted to developing and racing them, meaning the owners might have built their cars for less money initially, but all of the gas, hotels, and parts ordered after the initial build, which were all necessary to find something that worked well, undoubtedly add up to well... a lot.

Matt

[jeffandre]

I have owned my 71 camaro since 1985 while keeping track of all part purchases. Until the current ls3 install I have done all labor myself. Since I am in no hurry I have been able to research the hell out of options using multiple forums as well as a number of knowledgeable people to try to make better choices. I am at 55k and still need body/paint, interior, better trans, and eventually a better rear. This machine is a lifelong project and will take me another 10 years to get to 99% complete. I will enjoy autox and track day events, plus a lot of highway miles. 100k is in my future, and that is with effort applied towards finding deals! Will I be able to complete with the big dogs? Probably not too well, but I do believe that if an excellent driver was behind the wheel the results would be respectable. For me this is an important investment in my overall life happiness! Now let's get back to the driving!!!

[Sales-TCI-Eng]

In all fairness there are numerous low buck cars that can carry their own.

^^^^^This

Our Camaro has hung with and beat some of the best cars out there yet anyone could easily duplicate our car for under $50K. It just has a garage built 355" SBC with a 700R4. Although, if we were to build that car today it would get a take-out LS1/T56 which would actually cost less money and make the same power.

-J

[72BBSwinger]

These prices are seriously F****** rediculous, I think anyway.

[srh3trinity]

I didn't say it couldn't be done, but for the sake of ending the discussion, I just wanted to encourage somebody to do it. The initial statement that started the debate was that you could build a car equivalent to Finch's Camaro or one of the DSE Test Cars for less than 50-60K. If you mean the same pile of parts, I think it has been shown over and over again that you would spend more than 50-60K on the parts alone. If by equivalent you mean a car that can run with them and have the same street manners, then it is possible but it would still be difficult. I love the budget builds on the site, but I think if you took some of those cars and drove them as hard and fast as the DSE cars, you would find a weak point requiring more money to be invested. I don't think you could get the same combo of looks, ride quality/adjustability, reliability/endurance as those cars have for that price range, in other words a duplicate car.

[coolwelder62]

I guess I will jump in here.It is possible to build a camaro that will run w/DSE or Brian Finch for around 50K.But you will need to be able to wheel the thing when it's finished as well/or better than Kyle or Brian.I have ridden with both of those guy's and they are Very,
very fast.In order to build a super fast winning car for under 50K you must be able to fabricate as well as you drive (So you can do all the labor your self).You will need to build a award winning suspension,mini tub install,roll cage,and every aspect of the build will need some type of atention to detail.When in comes time to build Just putting the battery in the trunk because that is where everyone else doesnt it is just not good enough.Putting the car on the scales as you build is very important.everything must be put the perfect spot so in the end you have a balanced car w/o adding weight to get there.Remember the Dry sumped LS power plant will eat up about 20K,So now you only have 30K left for everything else.Brakes,wheels tires,saftey equipment,etc.When my chevelle is finished I will be starting a 69 camaro build,out of all new sheet metal.Every part as the body go's togather will weighed, lighted in some forum or another then carefully welded in place.I am going to build everything I can from sratch as to save money.I will be buying things like DSE mini tubs,body mount kit.These type of things cant be built for what they cost to buy.Hooker headers makes a real nice set of headers that fit my C-6 sub frame perfect.They are around $600.00 w/o jethot coating.The jet hot coating on things like this is a must for long living parts.It will probably take about 8-12 months for the total build.I will let my Kevin drive at the events where we want to compete for a win. Looking at wraping the to save a little weight.The car will get A/C and a little bit of interior.My new sub frame design will let a 12in wheel fit a 1st gen. if you are willing to rework the outer fender lip a tad. We will see how things come togather,When I get around to getting started.I do already have all the 69 body panels and a ks title for the project.700HP and a total vehicle weight of 2600# less driver should be do able.

[badazz81z28]

This is just never going to end, is it? I hate to break it to you, but Mary's car is worth way more than 50K.

Which other cars are you thinking of besides Mary's car?

I can think of a few cars that you might be able to build for 50k after purchasing the car, but I can literally only think of three out west. The catch is that we would be talking the cost to duplicate these cars, and these cars have a ton of hours devoted to developing and racing them, meaning the owners might have built their cars for less money initially, but all of the gas, hotels, and parts ordered after the initial build, which were all necessary to find something that worked well, undoubtedly add up to well... a lot.

Matt

Mary's car is in that realm now since she had a complete make-over done. This discussion is addicting...why do you want it to end? j/k Youre right it does need to end, it's not like we are going to convince each other "I'm right". It's obvious we are all stubborn on what can be done for the dollar. But IMHO...most people tend to add in the cost of flashy paint jobs, interiors, stereo systems etc AND LABOR which I don't deny increases a build's cost dramatically.

[shortrack]

But IMHO...most people tend to add in the cost of flashy paint jobs, interiors, stereo systems etc AND LABOR which I don't deny increases a build's cost dramatically.

YEP!

Save your money for go fast parts, paint it with a spray bomb.

edit - Haha....a spray bomb isnt for everyone but you go to a car show and there are rows and rows of cars with big money paint. I personally will walk right by 90% of them. Put a decent paint job on it but the endless blocking and foot thick look is certainly not a requirement of a blistering fast PT car, not even close. My friends and I have this thing where you have to pick a fav car every time we go to a car show/cruise night etc. For myself its the cars with the hard core go fast parts not the foot thick paint that gets the nod from me. My wife on the other hand.....

[Flash68]

ummm....Pozzi?

Shirley... you can't be serious.

[srh3trinity]

I guess I will jump in here.It is possible to build a camaro that will run w/DSE or Brian Finch for around 50K.But you will need to be able to wheel the thing when it's finished as well/or better than Kyle or Brian.I have ridden with both of those guy's and they are Very,
very fast.In order to build a super fast winning car for under 50K you must be able to fabricate as well as you drive (So you can do all the labor your self).You will need to build a award winning suspension,mini tub install,roll cage,and every aspect of the build will need some type of atention to detail.When in comes time to build Just putting the battery in the trunk because that is where everyone else doesnt it is just not good enough.Putting the car on the scales as you build is very important.everything must be put the perfect spot so in the end you have a balanced car w/o adding weight to get there.Remember the Dry sumped LS power plant will eat up about 20K,So now you only have 30K left for everything else.Brakes,wheels tires,saftey equipment,etc.When my chevelle is finished I will be starting a 69 camaro build,out of all new sheet metal.Every part as the body go's togather will weighed, lighted in some forum or another then carefully welded in place.I am going to build everything I can from sratch as to save money.I will be buying things like DSE mini tubs,body mount kit.These type of things cant be built for what they cost to buy.Hooker headers makes a real nice set of headers that fit my C-6 sub frame perfect.They are around $600.00 w/o jethot coating.The jet hot coating on things like this is a must for long living parts.It will probably take about 8-12 months for the total build.I will let my Kevin drive at the events where we want to compete for a win. Looking at wraping the to save a little weight.The car will get A/C and a little bit of interior.My new sub frame design will let a 12in wheel fit a 1st gen. if you are willing to rework the outer fender lip a tad. We will see how things come togather,When I get around to getting started.I do already have all the 69 body panels and a ks title for the project.700HP and a total vehicle weight of 2600# less driver should be do able.

Cool, so Scott is stepping up to the plate. I wish I could say that I will get there, but I don't have the mechanical skills and I am going to have to pay for some things. This has been an interesting and largely civil debate. Did we ever answer the initial question for the first post?

[badazz81z28]

Cool, so Scott is stepping up to the plate. I wish I could say that I will get there, but I don't have the mechanical skills and I am going to have to pay for some things. This has been an interesting and largely civil debate. Did we ever answer the initial question for the first post?

uhhh.....I don't think it was...

I know there are some fast imports out there and a few on the show...but I still say some of them were given a little slack against the $100K PT cars.

[tazzz25906112]

Scott is an extremely rare bread of person in that he has the fabrication skills and a built in driver (his son Kevin) that is very talented.... The other side of that equation is Scott also has a shop and tools that make that car look like a cracker Jack prize in terms of cost. Can it be done yes,,, but it takes ""way to much" infrastructure and talent to logically do at the DSE Finch level for the average guy...

My focus has been 2nd gen's and with the number of them that we have built I can say it is extremely improbable for most to drift into that dream sucessfully..... Again this is at the Finch/DSE level.... You can build a Hell of a car for less money,,, just not that level of car without a budget in my opinion.....

[JEFFTATE]

It's not whether you can compete against the next guy on "his" level.
It's about what you can enjoy and afford on "your" own level .
I've had more fun with my beat up $15,000 '69 Camaro than my Z06.