Concert Loud.

[andrewb70]

Ron and Mako,

Thanks for sharing the pictures. I wish I would have done something similar when I was building my GTO. My system sounds great when sitting still, but as soon as you start to drive all of the bass seem to just get washed out. I have heard that this can happen in a car. I have Boston 6.5 Pros in the front and a sub with an Xtant 603e amp. If I remember right, I have the fronts crossed over at 50Hzs. Maybe I should run those full range. Any opinions on that?

Andrew

[RSX302]

Ron and Mako,

Thanks for sharing the pictures. I wish I would have done something similar when I was building my GTO. My system sounds great when sitting still, but as soon as you start to drive all of the bass seem to just get washed out. I have heard that this can happen in a car. I have Boston 6.5 Pros in the front and a sub with an Xtant 603e amp. If I remember right, I have the fronts crossed over at 50Hzs. Maybe I should run those full range. Any opinions on that?

Andrew

Yep..mine does the same, as do many cars. Standard road freq and engine cancel out alot of midbass. Sound deadening helps a lot but not 100%.

I loved my old Boston Pro Speakers I use to have. I feel the Subs were some of the best sounding speakers for bass.

I wonder if reversing phase would help? easy enough to try.

[andrewb70]

.....

I wonder if reversing phase would help? easy enough to try.

On the sub or on the 6.5 Pros?

The sub is an older Diamond Audio 10" in a sealed box. I don't remember the exact model number, but it was their top of the line in 2002. I picked it because it was one of the few subs at the time that didn't require a huge box. As I recall it only needed 1.5 cubic feet in a sealed configuration.

I have a bunch of sound deadening in the car already, I can't imagine adding more...LOL

I am also thinking about getting a separate amp for the sub, but I hate to do that...

Andrew

[RSX302]

On the sub or on the 6.5 Pros?

The sub is an older Diamond Audio 10" in a sealed box. I don't remember the exact model number, but it was their top of the line in 2002. I picked it because it was one of the few subs at the time that didn't require a huge box. As I recall it only needed 1.5 cubic feet in a sealed configuration.

I have a bunch of sound deadening in the car already, I can't imagine adding more...LOL

I am also thinking about getting a separate amp for the sub, but I hate to do that...

Andrew

Thing about reversing phase is any overlap freq will cancel each other out. May need to do both sub and 6.5's. If you have a bump in freq at the sub and 6.5 crossover point, you could reverse just the 6.5's only to knock down. Trial and error to see what sounds good. I'll try mine to see if it helps.

[RSX302]

Oh also..the 6.5's won't produce much bass below 50hz anyway. They would sound good at lower volumes, but when you start to crank it up, you could overextend the cone and damage the voicecoil. I say keep the 50hz crossover and protect the speaker.

[andrewb70]

Oh also..the 6.5's won't produce much bass below 50hz anyway. They would sound good at lower volumes, but when you start to crank it up, you could overextend the cone and damage the voicecoil. I say keep the 50hz crossover and protect the speaker.

Thanks for the tips Ron. I originally had the 6.5s set at full range, and like you said, at higher volumes there was noticeable distortion when playing music with very low bass. Once I crossed them over at 50hz, I could crank up the volume without distortion.

Andrew

[fej]

Wow there are a few audio guys here, awesome.

Pretty solid advice thus far. Midbass is the most difficult thing to do in a car bar none due to road/tire noise, wind noise, exhaust etc.

I used to love my horns from way back, and Hart 6" mids with magnets larger than today's 8's lol.

Power plus frequency control/optimization and a well thought out installation will trump pretty much what 90% of your typical "audio" shops will provide you. It is difficult enough to manage a highly reflective interior, unequal path lengths, and a biased seating position without introducing 4 speakers attempting to play the same frequency range.

G'luck with the installation, plan on lurking here a bit. Looking for some advice on a 65/66 Mustang installation. Thinking 4" mid/tweet combo in the kick and a 6.5" midbass pair in a custom built console. Just need to find the right mid to play down to 200-250hz to keep vocals in the right origination point. Any advice is welcome

Thanks
Fej

[makoshark]

Wow there are a few audio guys here, awesome.

Pretty solid advice thus far. Midbass is the most difficult thing to do in a car bar none due to road/tire noise, wind noise, exhaust etc.

I used to love my horns from way back, and Hart 6" mids with magnets larger than today's 8's lol.

Power plus frequency control/optimization and a well thought out installation will trump pretty much what 90% of your typical "audio" shops will provide you. It is difficult enough to manage a highly reflective interior, unequal path lengths, and a biased seating position without introducing 4 speakers attempting to play the same frequency range.

G'luck with the installation, plan on lurking here a bit. Looking for some advice on a 65/66 Mustang installation. Thinking 4" mid/tweet combo in the kick and a 6.5" midbass pair in a custom built console. Just need to find the right mid to play down to 200-250hz to keep vocals in the right origination point. Any advice is welcome

Thanks
Fej

Installing speakers in the kick panels and then the console would open a huge can of worms. You would lose any stereo affect and create weird acoustical anomalies in doing so. CDT is my preferred brand They will handle what you want and then some. I 6.5" and tweeter would be a very efficient setup without creating unwanted complications. KISS is the method I like to follow, especially with car stereo installations

[Joker69Camaro]

I would do at least a 5" in the kick and a single sub-woofer in the center consol. Either firing down, back or into the cab. That gets your x-over around 80hz, down firing the sub in the directions will also void any phase or weird EQing issues this would bring up. There are several 6" subs that can work well for this application.

This is kind of how my camaro will be built, and I WILL be competing in SQ in it. To ease the install, you may want to look at the Morel Integra speakers, these are a point source driver with a separate tweeter flushed at the cone. Basically its a coaxial, with none of the timing or phase issues, and can run separate power to the tweeter and midbass.

If your stuck on 4" the ARC Audio Blacks will play down to about 180-160, I have them at 160 in my competition vehicle, also the renaissance audio WR4 plays down to about the same.

Hope this helps more than confuses...

Jeff K.

[fej]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I am not sure I agree that a properly crossed midbass unit would create a ton of issues in the front stage, especially beneath 200hz as it is outside of the vocal range and does not contribute very much at all to point source recognition or stage presentation.

I would like to KISS, but I don't really have a decent location for anything more than a 4" without opening a ton of metal work problems. I am not willing to do door mounts, and the kickpanel coaxials are not going to work for me at this point, especially with the loss of foot room in relation to the clutch, and the inability to really accomplish any sort of aiming.

Maybe a small tuned enclosure as part of the console that would handle the midbass range with steep rolloffs, and I could pick up the sub around 63hz ....

Thanks again for the replies and recommendations on the 4" ... was considering the Dynaudio and the HAT 4" as welll

Fej

[makoshark]

It doesn't matter what you cross the mids over at. If you place the mids in your console with one firing into the kick panel and a 4" firing from the kick into the console, you will lose stereo affect, as well as, this arrangement will cause weird harmonics. If you have this setup the same way on the drivers as the passenger side. You just don't setup a system like that is my point.

[fej]

The console mounted speakers would run from 63hz to say 180hz. Entirely handling just the effective midbass range. The wavelength is quite long, and basically omnidirectional at that frequency range. Your vertical/point source cues are going to come from the 4" midrange/tweets in the kickpanels properly aimed of course.

Imagine a small 3 way speaker set up for a computer. You will have a little 4" driver running your "sub" and "midbass" range on the floor, and you will have little 2" speakers playing the balance up on your desk. The music still appears to be coming from up on the desk, but in reality it is likely only from about 500hz and up. Your stereo playback still appears to your ears to be correct, but the sub is supplying your bottom fill and lower midrange.

Granted, I have never built it, but I have heard pretty much every possible configuration .. from horns to planar tweets to folded horns and all kinds of craziness in between. From world champ cars down to 6x9's on a 67 Mustang package tray (my first system lol). I have about 20 installs under my belt over the past 30 years of being into audio, and 5x that amount in tuning and fixing systems installed by others. I have a pretty solid working knowledge of audio reproduction and how the frequency ranges can work for you or against you.

Is it ideal? Nope ... but we are in a car, sitting biased on the left side, surrounded by every highly reflective material on the planet (plastic, sheet metal, glass) and attempting to overpower road, wind, and exhaust noise and still get accurate reproduction. It is going in a 66 Mustang with a 347, LT's and turn downs before the axle. It will have plenty of power on the front stage to try and make it audible, and if it sounds like @$$ I will figure something else out

Fej

[makoshark]

Good luck

[Duramaxpower09]

I guess it all depends on whether you want just loud or loud and clear for loud and clear most of the time you will have to pay for it don't get me wrong there are some lower priced brands that sound really good but say focal, hertz, and jbl are kind of pricey double the power or double the speakers gains 3 db rule I'll give you two whole different scenarios with my opinions my truck has 56 highs and mids running off 11 amps and 5 batteries along with 6 15s in the bed and it is crazy loud meter shows 162 and it is fairly clear for speakers that costed me 15 bucks a piece with the sponsorship that list at 80 a piece but now my camaro has 1500 dollar foals in it at only 8 speakers and 2 12s and it's sound quality is ten times better than my truck it's clearer and crisper and to me it's just as good sounding but it costed me a crap load more a lot of it is in your processors and power as well and who all tunes it be some people don't know how to properly tune them lol some loud brands that we have around here are Beyma, selenium, eminence, addictive audio good luck buddy

[andrewb70]

I guess it all depends on whether you want just loud or loud and clear for loud and clear most of the time you will have to pay for it don't get me wrong there are some lower priced brands that sound really good but say focal, hertz, and jbl are kind of pricey double the power or double the speakers gains 3 db rule I'll give you two whole different scenarios with my opinions my truck has 56 highs and mids running off 11 amps and 5 batteries along with 6 15s in the bed and it is crazy loud meter shows 162 and it is fairly clear for speakers that costed me 15 bucks a piece with the sponsorship that list at 80 a piece but now my camaro has 1500 dollar foals in it at only 8 speakers and 2 12s and it's sound quality is ten times better than my truck it's clearer and crisper and to me it's just as good sounding but it costed me a crap load more a lot of it is in your processors and power as well and who all tunes it be some people don't know how to properly tune them lol some loud brands that we have around here are Beyma, selenium, eminence, addictive audio good luck buddy

Word....words....words....

[MonzaRacer]

Forget too high of loud factor or db. Your decision will basically make a system too loud, if bass is too loud it can disrupt heart beats and actually hurt or damage you. AND if your desire for super loud sounds,, you would simply destroy your hearing. And actually look for BETTER sound over greater sound. Namely the point I make is Iused a Marantz BP750 amp system that system ran into 4, 4 ohm speakers reproduced 131 db, pulled out an impressive 139 out of 140 on RTA with no front speakers, and this system only built 360 watts total.
Go for clarity and actual surround rather than earth shattering db.