American Motors Xperimental full frame

[preston]

335's on the front are the new hotness.

I'm a little confused on your plans for a new front spindle, I'd liek to see what you have in mind. Would you continue to use the vette bolt pattern ? I looked real close at using vette stuff for my build but was scared away by all the hub weakness issues, although the SKF hubs are good. I used GN circle track hubs and setup the spindle to bring them inboard as much as possible, but still have to run 9" backspace on an 11" wheel to get the SR that I want. But damn that stuff is beefy, and not reallly all that much heavier believe it or not. Pluse direct mount rotor (ie no hat) makes for a very stable setup. Brake pad knockback is non-existent. Maybe I'll post a picture up to inspire you in whatever you are doing.



I kind of thought about building something liek that Cortex spindel that uses the modern sealed hub mostly to get a build in ABS sensor and maybe save 3 lbs and be able to use "normal" offset wheels but I just can't see moving backwards to "weaker" setup.

[nine lives johnny]

go go go man keep up the good work!!

[BADDRIDE II]

No, if I design it from scratch, I can use a hollow snout, move the whole attachment surface to the rear of the spindle to create enough clearance for the hub. C5 brake rotors are probably only .250" away from the lower ball joint, and unfortunatly need to keep that same distance to keep the scrub radius and geometry correct.

Hmmm, Jason/GMR is working on the same type rear mount application for the serious "race" crowd as a bullet proof system to compliment his rear floater hubs (great minds think alike).

I do know GMR currently has a "street" type replacement C5 hub of which I know are on a few cars for testing (including mine....but mine does not count yet since it is on stands!) and are doing great, and have shown zero signs of stress per Jason who is monitering them. So for now, I know he only sells them as a "street" application until further feed back is had, and then still will most likely conservativly sell as street/Auto-X application that would suffice the average Pro Tour car.

The new design he said will most likely cater to the hardcore, higher speed track car/racer like yourself! It will be tough (not impossible) fitting everything through the stock upright opening (which is why Jason said he may even design a whole new C5 upright) with a 2" snout, unless you go with a steel hub body (heavy though) and that still may not fit. Then there are concearns of just how much added stress a C5 upright can take even moving some of the burdin/stress inboard?.....I would assume a slightly smaller snout would be needed for sure if a aluminum hub body would be used due to additional material needed for strength, but may be the way to go to keep weight down of which should also be important to a real race car. If you are planning a new steel upright and steel hub body I would think that would be undesirably heavy. Either way the final design will be killer I'm sure! Yours or his.

Few pics of my lighter duty set-up! I know its not a 2" snout....but definate improvement (and serviceable) over stock hub.
Attachment 52148Attachment 52147

[preston]

CAn you show us the backside of that hub, or attached to the spindle ?

I know I kind of see the C6 stuff as lightweight, but there are also a lot of serious vette racers pounding on them with 3200 lb cars that do okay. Yeah the hubs are a wear item but its not like they are failing.

Anyone know what a bare C6 upright weighs ?

I'll have to doublecheck but the C6 hub assembly is about 7-8 lbs, I was surprised how heavy it was. My GN "Nascar" hub is a giant chunk of beefy aluminum and it only weighs about 6.5 lbs with bearings.

[Ron S]

Ron, what's the deal on that little truck?

Thats my Dodge Power Wagon, I've been scrounging parts, and pecking at that thing since the 80's. It is setting on a late 70's frame, it sports an old school Hemi, Dana 60's front and back, and a 727, with a 205 transfer case. Of everything I have ever owned, I think its my favorite.

[Ron S]

Hmmm, Jason/GMR is working on the same type rear mount application for the serious "race" crowd as a bullet proof system to compliment his rear floater hubs (great minds think alike).

I do know GMR currently has a "street" type replacement C5 hub of which I know are on a few cars for testing (including mine....but mine does not count yet since it is on stands!) and are doing great, and have shown zero signs of stress per Jason who is monitering them. So for now, I know he only sells them as a "street" application until further feed back is had, and then still will most likely conservativly sell as street/Auto-X application that would suffice the average Pro Tour car.

The new design he said will most likely cater to the hardcore, higher speed track car/racer like yourself! It will be tough (not impossible) fitting everything through the stock upright opening (which is why Jason said he may even design a whole new C5 upright) with a 2" snout, unless you go with a steel hub body (heavy though) and that still may not fit. Then there are concearns of just how much added stress a C5 upright can take even moving some of the burdin/stress inboard?.....I would assume a slightly smaller snout would be needed for sure if a aluminum hub body would be used due to additional material needed for strength, but may be the way to go to keep weight down of which should also be important to a real race car. If you are planning a new steel upright and steel hub body I would think that would be undesirably heavy. Either way the final design will be killer I'm sure! Yours or his.

I talked to Jason about that setup, and really feel he was on the right track, but felt I was going to be the first guy to push that set up to its possible limits. I hate to admit it, but ripping up the 1.3 mile straight away at VIR at 160mph,all that goes through my mind is wheel bearings, and lug nuts. I don't want to have to think about failure of any kind.

What I have rolling around in my head is an all new steel upright using a 2" or Imsa style snout, tigged together in peices, then lightened on the mill. The hard part of that setup ins the proximity of the rotor to the lower ball joint, it really limits you to snout placement, and kind of forces you into running a normal C6 hat.

[Ron S]

335's on the front are the new hotness.

I'm a little confused on your plans for a new front spindle, I'd liek to see what you have in mind. Would you continue to use the vette bolt pattern ? I looked real close at using vette stuff for my build but was scared away by all the hub weakness issues, although the SKF hubs are good. I used GN circle track hubs and setup the spindle to bring them inboard as much as possible, but still have to run 9" backspace on an 11" wheel to get the SR that I want. But damn that stuff is beefy, and not reallly all that much heavier believe it or not. Pluse direct mount rotor (ie no hat) makes for a very stable setup. Brake pad knockback is non-existent. Maybe I'll post a picture up to inspire you in whatever you are doing.

I kind of thought about building something liek that Cortex spindel that uses the modern sealed hub mostly to get a build in ABS sensor and maybe save 3 lbs and be able to use "normal" offset wheels but I just can't see moving backwards to "weaker" setup.

I will stay with the 5 on 4 3/4, with a 19x12 wheel with 8.25" back spacing. I want to be truthful, I've got so much crap to fabricate that the upright is pretty low on the list. I will probably fab the whole car with the factory spindles, then build the uprights after the car is built, and possibly put a set on the Mustang

[BADDRIDE II]

can you show us the backside of that hub, or attached to the spindle ?

I know i kind of see the c6 stuff as lightweight, but there are also a lot of serious vette racers pounding on them with 3200 lb cars that do okay. Yeah the hubs are a wear item but its not like they are failing.

Anyone know what a bare c6 upright weighs ?

I'll have to doublecheck but the c6 hub assembly is about 7-8 lbs, i was surprised how heavy it was. My gn "nascar" hub is a giant chunk of beefy aluminum and it only weighs about 6.5 lbs with bearings.

Pic of retaining nut with locking washer underneath (not seen) that holds hub body on and proper preload to dual tapered bearings. (just like GMR's rear floater hub)
Attachment 52174
Pic of spindle mounting flange. (stock C5/C6 are cast pieces...these are machined,treated,coated steel)
Attachment 52175
Pic of rear side of hub with rotor adapter attached (notice the hub centric,light weight,press fit rotor adapter...very solid...no more hats!)
Attachment 52176
Another shot of them installed on my DSE clip from back side
Attachment 52177
Just a shot of a stock C5/C6 Hub to show what one of the weak points are when "tracking" your car under extreme conditions, the ball bearings themselves usually do not fail. (wheel mount flange actually separates from hub body...starts as hair line crack...then this) C5/C6 flange is steel and approx. 3/8" thick.....GMR's hub is the flange and will not go anywhere.
Attachment 52178[attach=config]52174

[BADDRIDE II]

I talked to Jason about that setup, and really feel he was on the right track, but felt I was going to be the first guy to push that set up to its possible limits. I hate to admit it, but ripping up the 1.3 mile straight away at VIR at 160mph, I didn't want to have to think about failure of any kind.



What I have rolling around in my head is an all new steel upright using a 2" or Imsa style snout, tigged together in peices, then lightened on the mill. The hard part of that setup ins the proximity of the rotor to the lower ball joint, it really limits you to snout placement, and kind of forces you into running a normal C6 hat.

VERY understandable.

It will not be a simple task given many limitations.....that is why I truly believe this current GMR hub design is the answer for perhaps 98% of guys that will daily drive, Auto X, and even see some moderate track days. It is a true "bolt on" that is certainly lighter/stronger than stock.....and looks cool too! Look forward to seeing what you may come up with

[Ron S]

Those parts are a work of art. My junk never seems to end up with alot of jewlery, and I truely don't know why. I think I just dig welded parts. LOL

[SparkyRnD]

this is an incredible build!

[coolwelder62]

Those hubs are a work of art.

[Payton King]

Holy Hi-Jack Batman, I can't decide if this is a sales thread or if badride II needs to go ahead post his build pictures here as well.

[BADDRIDE II]

Sorry....was not meant to hi jack, I thought some mite appreciate the added input/pictures/options. I dont know of many threads that do not consist of this type input. Next time someone request pictures I will ignore as to not offend others. You sure know how to make a guy feel bad.....

[andrewb70]

Let's not get our panties in a bind here folks. I see no problem with related pictures being posted here, especially since Ron asked for them.

Since we are on the topic of C5/C6 bearings, don't forget that SKF offers a racing bearing:

http://www.pfadtracing.com/catalog/p...roducts_id/123

I don't want to get into a pissing match as to what's better or whateverthefuk. Just posting options.

Andrew

[preston]

Thanks for the photos. I have never seen a C5/C6 flange separated from the bearing before, that is some scary stuff.

That is a pretty cool design from GMR, I'm surprices no one has come up with that before. YOu do lose the ABS sensor though. I guess a pair of SKF's is going to be $1k+ anyway though, so considering it includes the "hat" and is infinitely rebuildable they actually sell for a good price although at first glance I was like "whoa".

I'm very interested in the weight of a bare C6 upright if anyone has one laying around.

[Ron S]

The knuckle with upper ball joint and nut is 5.4 pounds. You know I forgot all about the ABS part of that, I may just run the SKF bearings on this car, because it will have ABS. That was one of the main reasons I like the Strange 60, is that it is set up for the 3 channel 2002 Camaro ABS ring on the ring gear.

[preston]

Thanks Ron great info. THat is light - discouragingly light from my point of view ! My steel spindle with no ball joint weighs 12 lbs. Ouch ! My GN aluminum hub is 6 lbs, about 1/2 lb lighter than a sealed C6 hub.

[Ron S]

I'm sure you realize that is without the hub. Yeah GM on the weight vs. strength side of things really did there homework. Preston you like me over build everything, I am making a concious effort on this car not add any lbs. that will make no significant increase in performance or saftey. Finally realizing that that with the properly placed chromoly bars I don't need a massive 2x4 frame.That coming from a guy who speced a Dana 60 for his car, that will be my only weight splerge though.

[BADDRIDE II]

That is a pretty cool design from GMR, I'm surprices no one has come up with that before. YOu do lose the ABS sensor though. I guess a pair of SKF's is going to be $1k+ anyway though, so considering it includes the "hat" and is infinitely rebuildable they actually sell for a good price although at first glance I was like "whoa".

The knuckle with upper ball joint and nut is 5.4 pounds. You know I forgot all about the ABS part of that, I may just run the SKF bearings on this car, because it will have ABS. That was one of the main reasons I like the Strange 60, is that it is set up for the 3 channel 2002 Camaro ABS ring on the ring gear.

Technically yes on losing the ABS as it is not built into the GMR hub as stock C5/SKF hubs.....but as Ray (454Bug) is in the process of doing for his TC system....all that is needed is a simple reluctor ring machined that "bolts on". I believe J. Parsons pioneered one of these for his project as well....only the one needed for this GMR application would be a lot simpler/less expensive since it does not have to double as a rotor adaptor....it would simply be a ring. Hope this helps keep the dream alive for you and others!