zz572 vs ls based engine

[96Z28SS]

I'm having a hard time deciding which way to go with my 69 Camaro.
I'm thinking of buying a 572 long block then adding EFI with a FAST or BIG stuff.

But I also thinking of doing a LS1, LS2 based engine with some mods to get the power up to the zz572 rated 620hp.

Can the LS1 be modded to make 620+ Naturally Aspirated? and maintain streetability. The other big question is can it be done for the same price as a zz572.
I can get a zz572 long block for $10,750. I don't think I could match that price with a modded LS based engine.



What should I do?

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Keep in mind that the ZZ502 weighs a whole hell of a lot more than the LS1, so performance wise, you don't need 620hp out of the LS1 to match the performance of the 502.

You can do all bolt-ons, LTs, stage 2 heads, and a big cam (something like the TSP 231/237 or larger) and get 440+rwhp (530ish at the crank) out of the LS1 staying with stock cubes. There have been some max effort 346 builds that have hit 500rwhp, though. Probably not very streetable. You could probably do a 450rwhp LS1 for 6k given you start with a low mileage pull-out motor. You could put the extra coin towards a supercharger and make well north of 620hp. Same build as outlined above, but stage 2 6L heads instead of LS1 heads (to lower compression). Add 8psi to that, and you're looking at 525+rwhp with something like a D1SC.

Another other option would be to do h/c and bolt-ons on the LS2. I think Scoggin Dickey sells a 402ci LS2 shortblock. You could probably get the 620hp N/A with all bolt-ons, h/c and Fast 90mm intake (LS2 intake doesn't flow well). This option would probably be much closer to the 10k cost of the 502.


My vote is for the LSX based engine, they're lighter and more effiecent than the big blocks. Spend alot of time reading past threads at www.ls1tech.com to better educate yourself on their potential.

[mike67cam]

Don't forget the ZZ572 is based on a tall deck block. Custom headers would be a must for this swap! Hood clearance would probably be an issue as well unless you wanted to run a tall cowl hood. I think there engines come with a single plane intake that are fairly tall. I could barely get a 502 with an RPM air gap under my stock cowl hood. Running fuel injection would help, as the throttle bodies can be much shorter than a carb.

Good luck with the project!

-Mike

[96Z28SS]

Yes I would only buy the long block and I would do a custom intake with throttle body. I have a factory cowl hood. I think it would fit.

I hopefully some of the guys here with LS1 engines can give me their 2 cents on if an LS1 can make 600 N/A and be streetable for $10.750
I would assume it would have to be a stroker ported heads and good cam. I think for the money and power I think the 572 might be cheaper than the LS engine.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Yes I would only buy the long block and I would do a custom intake with throttle body. I have a factory cowl hood. I think it would fit.

I hopefully some of the guys here with LS1 engines can give me their 2 cents on if an LS1 can make 600 N/A and be streetable for $10.750
I would assume it would have to be a stroker ported heads and good cam. I think for the money and power I think the 572 might be cheaper than the LS engine.

There are 427 LS1s putting down 550rwhp which is well over 600 at the crank. Two things you have to consider here--most LSX guys talk in terms of RWHP, not crank hp. It doesn't matter what you put out at the crank, it's what you put to the ground. That 427 LS1 is going to run you much more than 10k right now, but that's all about to change when people start selling the LS7 block. Take a look at my above post, I answered all of your questions. IMHO 500-550hp LS1 powered car will walk a 620hp 572 car all day long on the premise of less weight and better weight distribution. You can get a stroker or a resleeved/stroked LSX motor to 600 N/A hp, no doubt about it. Take a look at ls1tech and their sponsor section. See what kind of packages they're offering and what kind of power they make. I think it will help ease your concerns on the ls1 capabilities and also see what your budget will look like. LS1s are expensive motors to work on, especially when you get into strokers and resleeved blocks, but a 346 LS1 is a very capable engine, not to mention the LS2. The LS2 has been out for less than a year, and there are already guys seeing 475+rwhp out of 'em(Stock cubes, h/c).

[ProdigyCustoms]

There are 427 LS1s putting down 550rwhp which is well over 600 at the crank. That 427 LS1 is going to run you much more than 10k right now, IMHO 500-550hp LS1 powered car will walk a 620hp 572 car all day long on the premise of less weight and better weight distribution. You can get a stroker or a resleeved/stroked LSX motor to 600 N/A hp, no doubt about it.

I am no LS1 expert by anymeans, but I disagree a lower horse LS motor will walk a big inch motor with more HP based on weight. There is something called torque, torque moves mass, cars have lots of mass. So in a street car, to make a small cube motor perform equally with a Torque monster big block, it tends to require quite a high strung (RPM)small motor. This all coming from a guy that is a big fan of high strung small motors. But then again, my idea of a street car is a bit more extreme the the average Joe.

The answer is no, you cannot build a LS1 motor with the same hp, naturally aspirated, for the same money. And no, it will not have the same street manners as the 572 that is hardly breathing hard to make the 600 horse.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

I am no LS1 expert by anymeans, but I disagree a lower horse LS motor will walk a big inch motor with more HP based on weight. There is something called torque, torque moves mass, cars have lots of mass. So in a street car, to make a small cube motor perform equally with a Torque monster big block, it tends to require quite a high strung (RPM)small motor. This all coming from a guy that is a big fan of high strung small motors. But then again, my idea of a street car is a bit more extreme the the average Joe.

The answer is no, you cannot build a LS1 motor with the same hp, naturally aspirated, for the same money. And no, it will not have the same street manners as the 572 that is hardly breathing hard to make the 600 horse.

I took torque into consideration. I don't know much about the 572, but I figured it made around 620 lbs of torque (going off of what the 502/502 makes). A 475rwhp max effort LS1 should be putting down close to 450rwtq, and probably weighs 200-300 lbs less than the 572. I'll agree that you can't build the LS1 for the same money as a big block, but in the case of the $10,750 for the 572, I'll have to disagree with you. You can definitely build a 620hp LSX for a tad under $11K. I'm not disputing what you're saying here, you know much more about engines than I do, however I know a 620hp N/A LSX can be built for $10,750.

One more thing to take into consideration here--$10,750 is just for the long block and does not include EFI. Add another $2,500 for the EFI systems he's talking about. So, the big block will realistically cost more like $13k.

Note: I'm not considering Labor into this.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Frank,

Just for arguments sake, take a look at this thread:

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=309920

402 LS2 Putting down 527rwhp. Figure in 15% drivetrain loss, and you're looking at exactly 620hp at the flywheel. (Wow, strange it came out that perfect, it didn't realize it was 620hp until I did the math).

Again, I'm not arguing the torque or which is faster, just the fact that you can build a 620hp LSX motor for around $11K.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

A Quick price list:

402 Shortblock from SDPC: $3,995.
TEA Stage 3 AFR 205s: $3,200*
Custom Ground Cam: $399
4130 Pushrods: $200
FAST LSX 90MM Intake: $900
90MM Throttle Body: $500
50lb Injectors: $500
Total Cost: $9,694.

Since I'm in a rush, I'm sure I forgot some things, so add the extra $1,000 for misc. items I forgot, and new motor mounts and a harness to run the engine. EFI doesn't have to be considered, because he's already going to have to spend the same amount on the 572. I doubt the 572 comes with accessories, either?

*(This particular car was running AFR 225s, but the TEA Stage 3's flow just as good. I didn't list the 225s because I'm not sure on pricing.)

Edit: Here's a long thread on the LS2 Shortblock (I've only read the first 2 pages, but the first post is really all you need to know.) http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showth...7&page=1&pp=20

Also, I'm sure you can build a big block to make more power for cheaper than $10K, but I'm basing this around the cost of the 572 long block.

[Zedzag]

I vote for the LSx based motor as well but I love small blocks seeing that they are the underdogs for CID. I'm also biased because I'm building a 6.0 LQ4 that should hit 475 flywheel hp with less that 3k in parts/labour and with under 10:1 compression. I could put a blower/turbo on it and make well over 600 super streetable hp for well under 10K and be reliable to boot.

Just go with what you want more and you'll be happy. Saying" I've got a 572" is pretty impressive.

[rockdogz]

"There's no replacement for displacement"

[96Z28SS]

I took torque into consideration. I don't know much about the 572, but I figured it made around 620 lbs of torque (going off of what the 502/502 makes). A 475rwhp max effort LS1 should be putting down close to 450rwtq, and probably weighs 200-300 lbs less than the 572. I'll agree that you can't build the LS1 for the same money as a big block, but in the case of the $10,750 for the 572, I'll have to disagree with you. You can definitely build a 620hp LSX for a tad under $11K. I'm not disputing what you're saying here, you know much more about engines than I do, however I know a 620hp N/A LSX can be built for $10,750.

One more thing to take into consideration here--$10,750 is just for the long block and does not include EFI. Add another $2,500 for the EFI systems he's talking about. So, the big block will realistically cost more like $13k.

I'm just talking long block, because the zz572 complete comes with a carb so I would just get a long block.

zz572 long block is all forged comes with cam, includes everything except intake carb and distributor.

I'm going to look into it a bit more but if I can get a LS based long block with cam that can make 620hp and idles real good and is streetable then I'll go that way. But I'm think that these cars making this type of power are a max effort type of engine and not street friendly.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

I'm just talking long block, because the zz572 complete comes with a carb so I would just get a long block.

zz572 long block is all forged comes with cam, includes everything except intake carb and distributor.

I'm going to look into it a bit more but if I can get a LS based long block with cam that can make 620hp and idles real good and is streetable then I'll go that way. But I'm think that these cars making this type of power are a max effort type of engine and not street friendly.

A Max effort build is definitely not going to idle like the 572, though I'm not sure what the idle on the 402 LS2 would be like. Any reason you're opposed to FI? A mild h/c 346 LS1 with a procharger at 8psi or so will make 620hp and idle real nice. With some bargain hunting you could probably get it done for around $11K.

The best arguement for the LS1 in this case is going to be weight savings, and therefore handling. Since pro-touring cars revolve around handling, your car will handle better with the LS1 due to less weight on the front end, and better weight distribution.

[96Z28SS]

I just took a look at the Rapid motorsports engine link you sent me.

The zz572 is advertised by GM as 620hp@5500 rpm 650ft-lbs @4500rpm
in the January 2004 issue of Popular Hot Rodding the motor out of the crate made 701hp@5800 710ft-lbs @4600. That was also made on 91 octane gas, I guess Cali doesn't have 93 at the pump.

I have to call some of the LS based engine builder to see if a long block can be done for $10,750 and produce similar numbers.

Isn't Wheel to Wheel really familiar with LS based engines.
maybe they can chime in here maybe even throw out a quote.

Rob
1969 Camaro project

[Nine Ball]

You definitely won't get 710 hp in a streetable form from an LS1, if we are talking pump gas. I've seen a few LS1s in the 675-750 hp range, but those were nasty high compression solid roller setups with very high rpm range. Good for drag racing, horrible for the street.

$10.5K is a damn good budget to play with however. The 402ci LS2 combo that Ralph listed above is a street engine, and should run just fine on pump gas. I had a 434ci LS6 that put down 525 rwhp (620 crank) on 93 octane and it was my daily driver at the time. Idled and drove just fine. That setup cost me around $10K.

If you really want to make some power, build up a forged internal small cube engine and fab up a turbo kit for it. You could probably make 800-900 hp on the same budget, and the setup would be far more impressive to look at under the hood :D

[touring67]

I did have the same question on my mind some months back, but I had wanted a 540. I ended up buying a LS2 block that I will be stroking to 402ci and putting a turbo on it. Much lighter, adapts to the car and my transmission (T56) very easily, made for FI and is much more efficiently designed from the get go. As for the commonly heard "There is no replacement for displacement" I had always agreed, but after riding in some blown vehicles, I was nearly lost for words and that saying was almost entirely blown out the window for me. Given, a blown larger displacement engine would be even greater power potential, it would also weigh more and use more fuel. Getting over 20mpg from a 400 hp engine is a plus too! The answer to 'there is no replacement for displacement' is called a turbo, huffer, blower, supercharger, etc! :P Have fun and be safe.

[96Z28SS]

I was doing some looking around here at cars with the ls1 in them, everyone I've seen the LS1 doesn't have A/C.
Can you not use the A/C with an LS1 conversion in a 1st Gen?

[jeffandre]

I thinkt he latest Summit catalog has an aluminum smallblock with decent power, carbureted. I don't have the catalog with me and I couldn't find it in their online catalog but I do recall it had pretty good power, should be good for more with a little tweaking. Just something else to consider, as weight is very important in our hobby.

[yody]

i don't know if i would even consider the ZZ572. I would build a 540 or have someone like sharifoff build me one, you could build a 540 standard deck for about $6-7000 with the same power or more. you might even be able to do an aluminum block 540 with the same $$ or just a tad more, now were talking......