Confiscation or Conversion. Right or wrong? Opinion?

[SS PUNISHER]

Not sure it's a moral issue as much as an integrity issue, and a matter of procedure.

If you'll re-read the opening post, you'll see that they blades were "retrieved" prior to being shipped out for destruction, and while still in the care, custody and control of the TSA (or whichever agency at the time?).

Gottcha! Well "IF" he would have done as I said then I would be fine with it. Since he apparently did it on the job then he should be fired. I think prosecution would be a bit much seein that he was just givin stuff away, if I read this part correctly. I think I quoted the wrong post anyway.... Idk maybe I should go to bed.....

[SS PUNISHER]

That wasn't the point of the thread.

The point is, do you think it was ethical, legal, etc., for this employee to help himself to items that were in the care, custody and control of a government agency, and slated for destruction?

The solution, as you mention, is obvious.

Ok, I know I quoted the right one here. I was just sayin that its alot easier to just throw this crap away that shouldn't be brought there in the first place. Airports cant handle luggage for shet, so you think they could manage and handle shipping small personal effects without botching that too? I think he should be fired and not be rehired in that field or agency again. I'm rambling so I'm goin to sleep now.....

[BulldawgMusclecars]

Since even the act of searching a person and seizing property without probable cause is unconstitutional to begin with, I think the greater question is why the TSA is even allowed to do ANY of this. Like most things done by our government, its more for "feel good" reasons...people feel good because they are seeing these displays of "security", but the guy with stamps from Pakistan, Somalia, the Sudan, etc isn't given a second glance because that may be construed as "profiling". I recently watched 3 TSA agents hassling 2 little old ladies in the Miami airport, because they didn't realize their duty free liquor (still sealed in the cruise ship box) couldn't be carried on. I bet one of those Gestapo thugs was drinking their liquor that night!
So, while I agree that its a waste for all these pocket knives and other confiscated goods to be destroyed, to me it is a greater travesty that they are seized at all. Those who take advantage of the misguided policy for their own gain are just as guilty as those who implemented it, in my mind.

[rohrt]

At my airport they have a sign that says the confiscated items will be donated to local shelters.

On a side note I got stoped by TSA when I had a very small multi tool that my wife gave me for my birthday just a few days prior. It unfolds to a very small set of scissors with a blad about 1 inch long. They gave me an option to mail back to my self for 15-20 bucks. It was more then my wife paid for it but at least I had an option.

I think the TSA is raping people that go through the line. Though I understand the need for security they get ridiculous with their power sometimes.

[Ash]

Since even the act of searching a person and seizing property without probable cause is unconstitutional to begin with, I think the greater question is why the TSA is even allowed to do ANY of this. Like most things done by our government, its more for "feel good" reasons...people feel good because they are seeing these displays of "security", but the guy with stamps from Pakistan, Somalia, the Sudan, etc isn't given a second glance because that may be construed as "profiling". I recently watched 3 TSA agents hassling 2 little old ladies in the Miami airport, because they didn't realize their duty free liquor (still sealed in the cruise ship box) couldn't be carried on. I bet one of those Gestapo thugs was drinking their liquor that night!
So, while I agree that its a waste for all these pocket knives and other confiscated goods to be destroyed, to me it is a greater travesty that they are seized at all. Those who take advantage of the misguided policy for their own gain are just as guilty as those who implemented it, in my mind.

Your not getting stopped and searched without probable cause. Their not picking and choosing who's luggage goes through the X-ray. Everyones does. It's a condition of flying, you chose flight as your mode of transportation, as such, you have to comply with the procedures. You wan't to go to an Arena concert, Music Festival, or a certain club. Your condition of entry is getting searched. Look at concealed weapon permits, you can carry in Public, but not in a bar (most states). Everything is conditional.

You're okay with your fellow air travelers having pocket knives, box cutters, indiana jones style bouies, and firearms on an aircraft? You have no idea how many verbal and physical disturbances happen while in flight. I'm talking about full on fist fights. Either between passengers, or passengers and staff. Drinking and flying go hand in hand, and some people, like in any bar, get beligerent. Youd think the possible consequences of causing such a stir on a flight would deter this behavior....it doesn"t. Let one of these asshats get on board with a knife or darenger and see what happens. Air marshals arn"t on every single flight.

I do agree that the TSA (Thousands Standing Around) do go overboard, but you have to take into account how they were trained.

[DartorDemon]

Since even the act of searching a person and seizing property without probable cause is unconstitutional to begin with, I think the greater question is why the TSA is even allowed to do ANY of this. Like most things done by our government, its more for "feel good" reasons...people feel good because they are seeing these displays of "security", but the guy with stamps from Pakistan, Somalia, the Sudan, etc isn't given a second glance because that may be construed as "profiling". I recently watched 3 TSA agents hassling 2 little old ladies in the Miami airport, because they didn't realize their duty free liquor (still sealed in the cruise ship box) couldn't be carried on. I bet one of those Gestapo thugs was drinking their liquor that night!
So, while I agree that its a waste for all these pocket knives and other confiscated goods to be destroyed, to me it is a greater travesty that they are seized at all. Those who take advantage of the misguided policy for their own gain are just as guilty as those who implemented it, in my mind.

Well apparently everyone is potential terrorist because we can't judge...ugh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S9H6RO0bKA

I love how so many years ago, airplane 2 had a scene that mirrors today so well. lol

[Off Duty]

Gottcha! Well "IF" he would have done as I said then I would be fine with it. Since he apparently did it on the job then he should be fired. I think prosecution would be a bit much seein that he was just givin stuff away, if I read this part correctly. I think I quoted the wrong post anyway.... Idk maybe I should go to bed.....

LOL- In know what you mean.
I do 18-20+ hour days, 5-6 and sometimes 7 days a week!
Get's old quick.

Sometimes, I leave the net for days or weeks at a time, and come back when I can think clearly again (lol).

Looks like we're in agreement on his actions

[WS6]

Guess I'm a dumbass then since I threw my knife into my toiletry bag. It's was an involuntary action as it's just something I take with me when I go anywhere. I'm also sure that 1 inch blade would really do some major damage and be a real threat should I have chossen to use it. I guess I'm also a dumbass for thinking the TSA agent would realize my big bottle of contact solution that was obviously borderline empty didn't have more than 4 oz in it at the time I tried to board. Nope, that robot told me I couldn't board with it. Boy they sure did hire bright people.

The guy is in the wrong whether you want to argue if it's confiscation or surrendering.

The TSA is a waste of money. They don't do anything but slow down the boarding process. Private security firms routinely perform better than the TSA which routinely fails when audited.

[BulldawgMusclecars]

Your not getting stopped and searched without probable cause. Their not picking and choosing who's luggage goes through the X-ray. Everyones does. It's a condition of flying, you chose flight as your mode of transportation, as such, you have to comply with the procedures. You wan't to go to an Arena concert, Music Festival, or a certain club. Your condition of entry is getting searched. Look at concealed weapon permits, you can carry in Public, but not in a bar (most states). Everything is conditional.

You're okay with your fellow air travelers having pocket knives, box cutters, indiana jones style bouies, and firearms on an aircraft? You have no idea how many verbal and physical disturbances happen while in flight. I'm talking about full on fist fights. Either between passengers, or passengers and staff. Drinking and flying go hand in hand, and some people, like in any bar, get beligerent. Youd think the possible consequences of causing such a stir on a flight would deter this behavior....it doesn"t. Let one of these asshats get on board with a knife or darenger and see what happens. Air marshals arn"t on every single flight.

I do agree that the TSA (Thousands Standing Around) do go overboard, but you have to take into account how they were trained.

I am a law abiding citizen without a single violation on my record...why shouldn't I be able to get on an airplane with a pocketknife? I could kill someone with my car keys, or a ball point pen...or even my belt, or my shoe strings...should those be verbotten too? Instead of causing the aggravation and embarassment to natural born, law abiding citizens like me, why not scrutinize those from know terrorism-supporting countries? People who aren't citizens of the US? People who have travelled to suspect places in recent history? Suspect individuals could be singled out before they even get to the airport, and the rest of us could be left alone. For those who slip through, a national CCW that allowed armed air travel, in addition to the sky marshalls, would be enough of a deterrent.

[Off Duty]

...I'm also sure that 1 inch blade would really do some major damage and be a real threat should I have chossen to use it...

Actually, a 1" blade can kill you pretty quickly if utilized properly.

I have a case file to prove it.
It was a lucky strike for the knife wielding defender, but caught his attacker in the groin, nicked the femoral artery, and the rest as they say, is history

And while it was a "lucky" strike for him, I can assure you that's not always the case.
I teach this stuff.
A properly trained person can wreak havoc on you in short order with a "little pocket knife"

...Boy they sure did hire bright people.

Not defending the TSA, but many of them, at least in the beginning, "were" the former security guards returning under another name, with better pay and benefits.
They don't necessarily attract the best or the brightest, simply due to the job, pay and assignments.
You'll find a lot of retirees and "wanna be" LEOS in the ranks.
You'll also find some great folks with great common sense, and a governmental agency that won't allow them to exercise that common sense:(

The guy is in the wrong whether you want to argue if it's confiscation or surrendering.

Totally agree

The TSA is a waste of money. They don't do anything but slow down the boarding process. Private security firms routinely perform better than the TSA which routinely fails when audited.

You may have a point. Never had an opportunity to compare the two groups.

[Off Duty]

Oh, and you're no "dumbass" sir.
You did just what thousands have done, and pretty much what the original post mentions. Simply forgot or acted as a creature of habit.

[DartorDemon]

I am a law abiding citizen without a single violation on my record...why shouldn't I be able to get on an airplane with a pocketknife? I could kill someone with my car keys, or a ball point pen...or even my belt, or my shoe strings...should those be verbotten too? Instead of causing the aggravation and embarassment to natural born, law abiding citizens like me, why not scrutinize those from know terrorism-supporting countries? People who aren't citizens of the US? People who have travelled to suspect places in recent history? Suspect individuals could be singled out before they even get to the airport, and the rest of us could be left alone. For those who slip through, a national CCW that allowed armed air travel, in addition to the sky marshalls, would be enough of a deterrent.

You've also never shanked anyone, but that doesn't mean they'll let you take a knife into a prison.

[BulldawgMusclecars]

You've also never shanked anyone, but that doesn't mean they'll let you take a knife into a prison.

If I was in prison, I wouldn't be a law abiding citizen...

[baz67]

Forests and trees people. Sure you may have never had a violation, but what criteria should there be let a citizen on a plane with a knife? Who would monitor those that have passed the criteria? By what means would you be identified? How would this be paid for? If something happend on the plane and you pulled the gun/knive could you prevent it from being forced from your possition from one person? What about two or three? Just put the damn thing in your checked baggage and be done with it. I am by far against gun restrictions for US citizens, but there are places where they do not need to be at times. Airtravel is about the only place that, IMO, ordinary citizens should not be armed. There are too many varibles that cannot be controled.

Remember unrestricted travel may be one of our rights, but to do it by airtravel is a privilege. If you do not like the restrictions of airtravel then by all means exercise another privilege and drive if you do not want to drive the exercise your right to walk there.

[Jim Nilsen]

i never understood the need to confiscate and destroy these things.. why not hold onto them and either allow the rightful owner to claim them when they return or charge them a fee to send them back to them?

That would create jobs and you know that would really suck to do that in the eyes of those trying to eliminate them and the people who have them!

[vintageracer]

That would create jobs and you know that would really suck to do that in the eyes of those trying to eliminate them and the people who have them!

I can see all those citizens that would be standing in the line for the opportunity to get a GOVERNMENT JOB to return nail clippers to their right-full owners. Kinda like the 2 to 3 hour line in Atlanta this week at the job fair sponsored by Congressional Black Caucus!

[Off Duty]

Forests and trees people. Sure you may have never had a violation, but what criteria should there be let a citizen on a plane with a knife? Who would monitor those that have passed the criteria? By what means would you be identified? How would this be paid for? If something happend on the plane and you pulled the gun/knive could you prevent it from being forced from your possition from one person? What about two or three? Just put the damn thing in your checked baggage and be done with it. I am by far against gun restrictions for US citizens, but there are places where they do not need to be at times. Airtravel is about the only place that, IMO, ordinary citizens should not be armed. There are too many varibles that cannot be controled.

Remember unrestricted travel may be one of our rights, but to do it by airtravel is a privilege. If you do not like the restrictions of airtravel then by all means exercise another privilege and drive if you do not want to drive the exercise your right to walk there.

That was a great post!

A system that would weed out the "good and bad" when it comes to determining who should and shouldn't be allowed to be armed on a plane, would be a nightmare of a logistics.
That frequent flyer thing they were going to do (I don't fly much anymore, so I don't know if it was ever set in place?), was simply to expedite screening, but not to allow people on board armed.
Even then, I can see major holes in it from a security standpoint.

One can go from law abiding citizen to raving lunatic, literally in minutes, or in a few drinks.

As for firearms, another good point was made.
Although one may possess a concealed weapons license (if your state has such an animal), but it doesn't mean the holder is competent in its use or defense.

One of the courses our company offers, is weapon retention.
It's amazing in a confrontation, how many people simply "ask" you to take away their weapon

What's worse, most have no idea how to get it back:(

If/when faced with multiple attackers, things can go very badly, very quickly.
Even if you've trained for this eventuality, there's still far too many variables (as you stated) to guarantee any level of success.

Then, there's decision time.

Do I shoot (if armed) this maggot that claims to have explosives? A knife, etc, etc, etc.?
Can I hit him/her, and what are the risks to the other passengers and the aircraft?
Is the other person holding a weapon, or trying to take me down, an Air Marshall, off duty cop, or the bad guys partner?

How many are ready to make these decisions in milliseconds?

In the beginning, the Air Marshall's service had very stringent weapons proficiency standards. Probably some of the best in the world for non "sniper", handgun types.
Their tactics were top flight and the physical conditioning required was pretty tough.

Not so much any more, for a variety of reasons that I'll not get into here.

The FDSO program, allowing pilots to carry in the cabin, is actually a pretty good program, and likely one of the better things to come out of the industry and our government to protect airlines, their passengers and crews in flight.


Your final statement concerning unrestricted travel, is dead on point, and a comment I've used hundred's of times since Sept. 11, 01 when discussing security.
You have a right to go.
You don't have a "right" to fly there

[DartorDemon]

If I was in prison, I wouldn't be a law abiding citizen...

LOL, i never said you would be going as a prisoner. It is possible under circumstances to be there for a tour, or the more likely scenario a visitor. Either way, even as a law abiding citizen going in. You'll be searched like anyone else.

[crustysack]

The moral dilemma is black and white- dont take the stuff that has been seized. The only reason its debatable is because of the items, in this case knives. If I am driving a truckload of confiscated cocaine for disposal and I rummage through the bins and find a neatly packaged 2 kilo bundle that I could give to someone for their enjoyment - do I take it?? If I do I am easily labeled a criminal. Same basic scenario -taking some thing confiscated for disposal and giving it to someone. Doesn't matter what it is, the person taking the item is stealing. Black and white. But alas we live in a very grey area called real life where pretty much anyone can justify their decision to do wrong for what they think is good.