Confiscation or Conversion. Right or wrong? Opinion?

[Off Duty]

**NOTE**
If you know the OP, PLEASE do not reveal that information. I'm not trying to embarrass anyone, and chose not to reveal his SN purposely so as not to create a problem for him personally or professionally.

On another site, there was a discussion about knives.
In that discussion, this was quoted by one of the members:

...And a box of swiss pocket knife's that came from confiscated passengers after 911... know one was alowed to take a pocket knife or any sharp object on the plane, so at checkin they were taken away and stored in boxes, every few months someone would take the skids with thousands of knife's and other objects for disposal...

Based on the OP's profile, they work in the airport industry.
Whether at the time, they were TSA (or their countries equivalent) or simply an airport employee, is undetermined.

The OP states in his post, that when the seized items were scheduled for disposal, he'd spend time picking through the boxes for the knives.
He kept them, and now gives them away to people who visit him.

And while I guess it's better than destroying them, it strikes a sour chord with me being a retired LEO and taxpaying citizen.

I decided not to post my initial response there so as not to embarrass the member, start a chit storm, or derail the thread.

Instead, I thought I'd post it here, and see what the general consensus was among the PT crowd?

Here is my initial, but not posted, response:

:( Sorry dude.
Maybe that's a better thing than destroying them, but...?
Frankly man, I've heard too many stories like this from our TSA guys (I have a couple of friends that are TSA types here).

Of course by now, it's pretty common knowledge and if you try to bring a blade onto a plane, you deserve whatever happens.

But in the early days, people were still getting accustomed to being shaken down for anything from tweezers to hair spray.

Some of those knives may have had sentimental value to the owner.

Now, all of a sudden they're stuck between the proverbial rock and hard spot.
They have to decide.
Do I make my flight for work, family or financial reason (airlines suck at reasonable rescheduling fees!), or do I give up granadpa's knife he left me in his will?

Since the TSA was incapable of making any sort of gesture of goodwill, allowing a person to forward the object home via other means, tagging and storing it until it could be retrieved, or repacking it in non-carry on luggage, you were fecked!

Now, the citizen "thinks" that his prized possession is being destroyed, that's bad enough, only to find out later that it was likely stolen by one of the government employees vested with the duty to seize and destroy "contraband."

I say "stolen", since once seized, property "should" remain in the custody of the property tech's until properly disposed of in accordance with regulations.
If those reg's allow the employees to take the items for their personal use, gain, purposes, whatever, then fine, my apologies.

But in 30 years of law enforcement, and 12 years with the Coast Guard (yeah, we confiscated some chit;) ), I've never seen a reg that allowed that.

We've been authorized to "check out and use" certain property for U/C assignments, stings, etc., to have it returned to property later.

We've also had auctions to raise money, by auctioning off seized items.
These were unclaimed items, usually held for several years, and evidence items where the cases were no longer active or on appeal.
These were highly publicized auctions and publicly held.

But before we auctioned off personal items (found property, recovered stolen property, etc.), we opened the doors to the property room (figuratively speaking), and allowed anyone with an interest, to check for their property.
If found and properly identified, and ownership established (usually a police report or case number, along with a picture ID would suffice), then the property would be returned to the rightful owner.

I don't see where it would have been that difficult for the TSA to have done something similar on a limited scale, say weeks or months vs years, and for more substantial items like knives, guns, and other non-disposable items.

Sure would have gone a long way toward better public acceptance and perception.

IMO - Seized property should be disposed of properly, and not converted to the personal use (any personal use) of a government agent or another, without proper authority and protocol.
In most jurisdictions I'm familiar with, converting seized or abandoned/recovered property to one's personal use, is a crime.

With all that said, what's your opinion?
Very curious to see the responses.
Thanks for your time and input.

OD

*AGAIN-PLEASE NOTE*:
**NOTE**
If you know the OP, PLEASE do not reveal that information. I'm not trying to embarrass anyone, and chose not to reveal his SN purposely so as not to create a problem for him personally or professionally.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

talk about the strangest post ive ever seen on here..

he shouldnt take them..

[Off Duty]

talk about the strangest post ive ever seen on here..

he shouldnt take them..

Yeah, I figured it was a little "different" but WTH?

With all the complaints in the past several years regarding the TSA's, it's over reaction and some of the alleged abuses, It seemed to somehow fit in.
I was hoping to generate a little discussion.
Oh well....
Hey, at least I put it in the outhouse where it belongs

[Van B]

Taking them is equivalent to theft, but I am sure he sees it as a victimless crime...

[WS6]

Not only morally wrong but illegal. The person is using their force as a government employee enforcing government rules to essentially steal private property. No two ways about it. This is no different than if he was to steal someones Rolex out of the bowl. Only this time he takes it from a crate. I say throw his a$$ in jail for theft.


and yeah this is a weird post but hey, you wanted opinions.

[baz67]

Not only morally wrong but illegal. The person is using their force as a government employee enforcing government rules to essentially steal private property. No two ways about it. This is no different than if he was to steal someones Rolex out of the bowl. Only this time he takes it from a crate. I say throw his a$$ in jail for theft. and yeah this is a weird post but hey, you wanted opinions.

Nothing illegal about this in the sense of theft of personal property. Immoral, very much so. Let us get on thing straight here the government is not confiscating a thing here. These people have things in their possession that are not allowed through airport security. They are faced with two choices. They can leave the line and they can dispose of it in any way of their choosing. If they CHOOSE to continue through security. Then they are to throw away the offending object. TSA takes stewardship of the offending object in the name of security. This is one of the few things that TSA is not incroaching on our personal liberties. BTW, I have had more knives get through security on accident then they have found. I really should check my briefcase better before I travel.

[Off Duty]

Nothing illegal about this in the sense of theft of personal property. Immoral, very much so. Let us get on thing straight here the government is not confiscating a thing here. These people have things in their possession that are not allowed through airport security. They are faced with two choices. They can leave the line and they can dispose of it in any way of their choosing. If they CHOOSE to continue through security. Then they are to throw away the offending object. TSA takes stewardship of the offending object in the name of security. This is one of the few things that TSA is not incroaching on our personal liberties. BTW, I have had more knives get through security on accident then they have found. I really should check my briefcase better before I travel.

Ok, now this is what I was looking for!
Someone who feels it's ok to do what he did, and can rationalize the employees actions.

Although I must disagree, I respect your position on the matter and thank you for posting it.
Here's why I'd have to disagree.

Any time a government agent, let's call them "employees" for a less ominous sounding position, takes possession of a citizens property, call it a confiscation or simply abandoned property (and yes, there's a difference between the 2), they (the gov't) become the caretakers of said property or as you referred to them, "stewards."

TSA takes stewardship of the offending object

And this is exactly my point.
Every agency I've ever been associated with, has protocols in place for the disposal of "abandoned" property, which in essence is what we have here. Property that is either "abandoned" by the citizen for the option to continue on their flight, or "seized" by the TSA pursuant to stated security guidelines.

Now remember, when this took place, the "new world of TSA" was still in it's infancy. People were making mistakes, simply out of complacency and ignorance.
Today, 10 years later, it's a much different story.

Back then, when people were inadvertently walking into the screening areas with the pocket knife they'd probably carried for years, including onto the planes, and realized oh crap!!
They really had no "real" option.

Sure, they could get out of line and keep the knife, and miss their flight.
Or, they could give it up voluntarily to the screener (or toss it in the bin), or have it confiscated at the checkpoint which would most certainly lead to a missed flight.

Some option huh? (again, we're talking 10 years ago, not today).

Regardless of the reason the property was "given up", government protocols for disposal remain in place.
Don't you think the items should have been destroyed as they were destined to be prior to his "rescue?"

IMHO, if you walk into an airport screening area today with a knife, you're either an idiot, or an Air Marshall (lol).

Even so, should an employee, or anyone else, have the right to convert that property to their own use, circumventing rules on disposal?

[muthstryker]

Do LEOs take home guns for their personal collection after they have confiscated the gun from someone who isnt legally allowed to have one? No, they dont.

[novaderrik]

i never understood the need to confiscate and destroy these things.. why not hold onto them and either allow the rightful owner to claim them when they return or charge them a fee to send them back to them?

[Ash]

....need to verify something.

[vintageracer]

The guy is a THIEF!!!

The TSA has the right via law to confiscate banned items and therefore the items become the property of the TSA. This person has no right or authority to "short through" the items and pick out any item he wants much less those he wants to "give away" to friends.

I truly hope the TSA does find out who this individual is and prosecutes for him for THEFT as he truly is a THIEF!

[Ash]

Depending on the Airport, confiscated items either get collected and turned over for auction or treated like trash, and disposed of as such. Which splits my opinion right down the middle, if it goes to the auction, than it's theft from the government...plain and simple. While the fiscal effect on the government is the epitome of negligible, it's still theft. pretty clear cut on this front. But the latter I feel pretty differently about..

baz67: ...Let us get on thing straight here the government is not confiscating a thing here. These people have things in their possession that are not allowed through airport security. They are faced with two choices. They can leave the line and they can dispose of it in any way of their choosing...

I completely agree with the above statement. No offense intended, but common sense should prevail...(Boarding a plain=no weapons of any kind in the aircraft cabin as stated on the TSA, Customs, Airline, and airport websites) but in case it doesn't, the prohibited item list gets piped through an endlessly repeating canned message the moment you walk through the buildings double doors. Carry on no-no's = Lighters, knives, gels, aerosols, and liquids (except for greatly minute quantities) get taken and you possibly get a stern talking to. "Undeclared Firearms" get you at the very least, a non refunded missed flight and a new-found fear of God.

They weren't confiscated by definition, they were all surrendered (except for non-declared firearms uncovered by TSA Cary-on luggage screening inside the TSA checkpoint). Up until the checkpoint X-ray,and even after the items were discovered, each person could refuse the conditions and rules of boarding, turn around and leave the airport, eating the missed flight costs, but property in hand. Or if they would have gotten their the recommended 2 hours early, they probably would have had time to hit up the small postal center & mail it to themselves. You're allowed to have it.....just not passed this point on your Cary-on luggage.

That said, the rental car agents regularly get the left over booze from visitors concluding their vacation, just a "I cant take this with me, can I? uhh....you want it? OK, here you go", or they simply leave it in the floorboard of the car and the car cleaners get it. The ticket counter agents and TSA get the brunt of fire starters (disposables, matches, Zippo's), hygiene (low to high dollar toiletries, cosmetics, perfumes), and knives. On international flights, Customs gets the food (raw meat in coolers, fruits, veggies, etc.) and concealed taxable goods. Hell, ticket counter agents get full suitcases and bags of souvenirs that people "abandon" because they didn't factor in, nor want to pay the additional airline baggage fees. It's an occurrence that is industry wide, I'm sure most gets disposed of in accordance with their respective codes of conduct, but their is no doubt some of this stuff gets taken home.

Garbage = abandoned property. If you put it on your curb, it's fair game. passerby's can legally grab and go through it, whether grabbing the washer for scrap metal or Law Enforcement agents building a case via a trash pull. People don't get upset at the idea of a stranger taking their old couch, washer, or table and getting use from it...I view the knife in the same fashion, again in the circumstance that it's taken from an airport that considers it as trash.

As long as it's at an airport that trashed the items, I see it as an acceptable level of corruption. Like professional curtsies among military, PD, Fire, Medical and government personnel. Doesn't mesh with the letter of the Rules/procedures, but happens everyday, and everyone knows it happens. Trying to eliminate TSA pocketing surrendered zippo's and knives, items surrendered and now considered garbage (not confiscated, transferred, or taken, to be procedurally "destroyed" via incineration, or auctioned off, but simple trash taken to the dump) would waste endless time, tax money, and man hours. Even in the event that a small percentage of knives intended for auction get taken, at $250.00 for 25 lbs of Swiss army knives, is it really worth prosecuting over. With certain situations, whether wrong or illegal to the letter of the law, addressing them causes infinitely more harm than good. It's a minute problem, that I think should be considered Spillage when looking at the impact of the missing items on a national budgetary scale. 25 lbs divided by 4 oz per knife =100 knives = $2.50 per knife. Per Knife value vs per court costs , or even firing an otherwise good and efficient employee. $3,000 minimum to replace a fired employee. Hiring, initial drug tests, background check, Medical physical, Training, setting up insurance, etc. Principles and standards matter in most instances, but with no individual victim (the knives were gonna be taken regardless, so the traveler has no gripe), and tax dollars paying for this, cutting off the nose to spite the face comes to mind. Like I said, I look at this situation as spillage.
Just my opinion though.

[DartorDemon]

i never understood the need to confiscate and destroy these things.. why not hold onto them and either allow the rightful owner to claim them when they return or charge them a fee to send them back to them?

That's what gets me. They could go about this in such a respectable manner and choose to do nothing.

Here's an idea, why not run it like a police impound lot.

1. Give the person the information and opportunity to retrieve these confiscated items. And/or charge them for the offering a mailing solution.(obviously more expensive than the typical local price. IE: courtesy charge)
2. Bag& label the item.
3. Have the person sign an agreement that the ownership of this property is given up after X amount of days
4. Upon the property's forgone ownership, put it up for sale on a government auction site.

But i guess that makes too much sense

[Off Duty]

That's what gets me. They could go about this in such a respectable manner and choose to do nothing.

Here's an idea, why not run it like a police impound lot.

1. Give the person the information and opportunity to retrieve these confiscated items. And/or charge them for the offering a mailing solution.(obviously more expensive than the typical local price. IE: courtesy charge)
2. Bag& label the item.
3. Have the person sign an agreement that the ownership of this property is given up after X amount of days
4. Upon the property's forgone ownership, put it up for sale on a government auction site.

But i guess that makes too much sense

Unfortunately, as someone mentioned earlier, with the volume of traffic through most major air terminals, it would be a huge logistic nightmare to bag and tag each item surrendered or confiscated (depending on how it's found).
They could quite easily, set aside an area for those who "suddenly realize" that they brought something they shouldn't have, to complete the required documentation as you described, on their own.
Other than that, the manpower and logistic requirements would probably be prohibitive.

And you're definitely making too much sense.
You must not be a gov't administrator (LOL)

Depending on the Airport, confiscated items either get collected and turned over for auction or treated like trash, and disposed of as such. Which splits my opinion right down the middle, if it goes to the auction, than it's theft from the government...plain and simple. While the fiscal effect on the government is the epitome of negligible, it's still theft. pretty clear cut on this front.

I spoke with my buddy last night, whose a TSA supervisor here. He said essentially the same thing; but he's going to check it out further today. It's not something he has to deal with daily (Thank God!)
(the thread is for discussion. God forbid we should start wasting too much taxpayer $$$ on such trivial matters.

I completely agree with the above statement. No offense intended, but common sense should prevail...(Boarding a plain=no weapons of any kind in the aircraft cabin as stated on the TSA, Customs, Airline, and airport websites) but in case it doesn't, the prohibited item list gets piped through an endlessly repeating canned message the moment you walk through the buildings double doors. Carry on no-no's = Lighters, knives, gels, aerosols, and liquids (except for greatly minute quantities) get taken and you possibly get a stern talking to. "Undeclared Firearms" get you at the very least, a non refunded missed flight and a new-found fear of God.

No offense taken here. I'm in complete agreement.
Remember though, we're talking about the very early days of this goat rope.
It wasn't as well known, or understood. Even among the officials, there was still confusion over what could and couldn't be brought on board. Knives were always an understood no-no thought.
Today, I'm surprised it's not subliminally emblazoned in our brains....wait....repeated messages....maybe it is!

They weren't confiscated by definition, they were all surrendered (except for non-declared firearms uncovered by TSA Cary-on luggage screening inside the TSA checkpoint).

That's exactly what I've been saying.
If you give them up voluntarily, its' surrendered.
If they (TSA) find them, it's confiscation.

Up until the checkpoint X-ray,and even after the items were discovered, each person could refuse the conditions and rules of boarding, turn around and leave the airport, eating the missed flight costs, but property in hand. Or if they would have gotten their the recommended 2 hours early, they probably would have had time to hit up the small postal center & mail it to themselves. You're allowed to have it.....just not passed this point on your Cary-on luggage.

Very true.

That said, the rental car agents regularly get the left over booze from visitors concluding their vacation, just a "I cant take this with me, can I? uhh....you want it? OK, here you go", or they simply leave it in the floorboard of the car and the car cleaners get it. The ticket counter agents and TSA get the brunt of fire starters (disposables, matches, Zippo's), hygiene (low to high dollar toiletries, cosmetics, perfumes), and knives. On international flights, Customs gets the food (raw meat in coolers, fruits, veggies, etc.) and concealed taxable goods. Hell, ticket counter agents get full suitcases and bags of souvenirs that people "abandon" because they didn't factor in, nor want to pay the additional airline baggage fees. It's an occurrence that is industry wide, I'm sure most gets disposed of in accordance with their respective codes of conduct, but their is no doubt some of this stuff gets taken home.

I'm sure you're correct.
The first part, where I "give" you something, then it's a gift.
If it doesn't violate your companies policy on receiving gifts, then you're golden. Only thing the employee risks at this point, is termination.

Garbage = abandoned property. If you put it on your curb, it's fair game. passerby's can legally grab and go through it, whether grabbing the washer for scrap metal or Law Enforcement agents building a case via a trash pull. People don't get upset at the idea of a stranger taking their old couch, washer, or table and getting use from it...I view the knife in the same fashion, again in the circumstance that it's taken from an airport that considers it as trash.

Again quite true
I cant' tell you how many times over the years, I've gathered some maggots trash, just to see what they've been up to, where they shop or where they bank. It's unbelievable in this day and age, that anyone still leaves personal, un-shredded mail, in the garbage on the roadside!

If the property is disposed of in the TSA bin at the checkpoint, it's not considered "airport" or "public" garbage (straight from the TSA).
Once in there, it can not be removed lawfully.

As long as it's at an airport that trashed the items, I see it as an acceptable level of corruption.

I see what you mean.

Like professional curtsies among military, PD, Fire, Medical and government personnel. Doesn't mesh with the letter of the Rules/procedures, but happens everyday, and everyone knows it happens.

Also understand this well, and you're right, it happens daily all over the country.
But it's usually over a traffic violation.

Most criminal offenses, including DUI (also traffic related), are charged regardless of your position.
Too risky these day's to not do so.

Trying to eliminate TSA pocketing surrendered zippo's and knives, items surrendered and now considered garbage (not confiscated, transferred, or taken, to be procedurally "destroyed" via incineration, or auctioned off, but simple trash taken to the dump) would waste endless time, tax money, and man hours.

Absolutely. Another reason why I asked that the individual not be identified.
I'd hate to see us start trying to criminally prosecute every violation. Since they're all FEDERAL, the system would be slower than it is now:(

Even in the event that a small percentage of knives intended for auction get taken, at $250.00 for 25 lbs of Swiss army knives, is it really worth prosecuting over. With certain situations, whether wrong or illegal to the letter of the law, addressing them causes infinitely more harm than good. It's a minute problem, that I think should be considered Spillage when looking at the impact of the missing items on a national budgetary scale. 25 lbs divided by 4 oz per knife =100 knives = $2.50 per knife. Per Knife value vs per court costs , or even firing an otherwise good and efficient employee.

$3,000 minimum to replace a fired employee. Hiring, initial drug tests, background check, Medical physical, Training, setting up insurance, etc. Principles and standards matter in most instances, but with no individual victim (the knives were gonna be taken regardless, so the traveler has no gripe), and tax dollars paying for this, cutting off the nose to spite the face comes to mind.

Unfortunately, this is where I have to vehemently disagree.

While talking with my bud last night, he said they recently fired a screener, for taking $.014 from one of the bowls used to go through the x-ray.
The passenger had already left, so as you mentioned, no "real" victim at this point, and just abandoned property, right?

Not according to TSA!

The "property" should have been turned over and been disposed of in accordance with their regs.
Frankly, I'm 100% in agreement with that policy.

If a person will "steal" that, what else will they steal?
If they're willing to risk their lively hood over $.014 cents, they're not "good employees" in my book.
They're weak, and pose a potential security risk.

I'll spend the $3k to replace a weak employee for one with morals and ethics any day

Like I said, I look at this situation as spillage.
Just my opinion though.

Thanks man, and it's just that, the ability to share opinions and discuss in a professional manner, that makes this place pretty darned nice to hang around.

[DartorDemon]

I'm not sure i agree on the logistics issue depending on the rate of occurrence. Again i'm making sense here, but say this happens 10 times an hour.(A generous estimate) I'd put a very rough estimate that 2-3(if not more) would say screw it and toss the item. That gives 7-8 people per hour who want to bag&tag or ship they're item.

So, take a security guard who's watching the line(maybe some people who travel more can tell if they have a standing guard by the scanners?)

Assuming there is this guard:
- add a medium size podium with some locking cabinets & an atm debt self-service terminal
- have a locked space for padded envelopes w/ blank label spaces & UPS prepaid labels
- have a locked space for "deposited items"
- have a stack of the said agreement in carbon copy form

So, someone comes through the line and wants their item, the scanner confiscates the item. Completes the scan and directs the person to the podium(/kiosk). The guard has the person pay for the service, fill out the envelope label & agreement. This way the transaction can be completed while maintaining what little security that guard provides.

Then, once the information is filled out, the guard goes to the scanner to retrieve the item. Bags it, stores it and/or drops it in a mail bin.

But then again...i think.

[SS PUNISHER]

i never understood the need to confiscate and destroy these things.. why not hold onto them and either allow the rightful owner to claim them when they return or charge them a fee to send them back to them?

Apparently there are too many dumbasses that take knives to the airport to try and keep up with......... These made the choice to give them up and as long as the items are hauled to a public area for disposal they are free game. Really don't see the big moral dellima here

[SS PUNISHER]

I'm not sure i agree on the logistics issue depending on the rate of occurrence. Again i'm making sense here, but say this happens 10 times an hour.(A generous estimate) I'd put a very rough estimate that 2-3(if not more) would say screw it and toss the item. That gives 7-8 people per hour who want to bag&tag or ship they're item.

So, take a security guard who's watching the line(maybe some people who travel more can tell if they have a standing guard by the scanners?)

Assuming there is this guard:
- add a medium size podium with some locking cabinets & an atm debt self-service terminal
- have a locked space for padded envelopes w/ blank label spaces & UPS prepaid labels
- have a locked space for "deposited items"
- have a stack of the said agreement in carbon copy form

So, someone comes through the line and wants their item, the scanner confiscates the item. Completes the scan and directs the person to the podium(/kiosk). The guard has the person pay for the service, fill out the envelope label & agreement. This way the transaction can be completed while maintaining what little security that guard provides.

Then, once the information is filled out, the guard goes to the scanner to retrieve the item. Bags it, stores it and/or drops it in a mail bin.

But then again...i think.

Heres a solution... People stop takin crap to the airport that they know they shouldn't!!! It's common sense! Isn't there a list of items not allowed on a commercial plane???

[Off Duty]

Apparently there are too many dumbasses that take knives to the airport to try and keep up with......... These made the choice to give them up and as long as the items are hauled to a public area for disposal they are free game. Really don't see the big moral dellima here

Not sure it's a moral issue as much as an integrity issue, and a matter of procedure.

If you'll re-read the opening post, you'll see that they blades were "retrieved" prior to being shipped out for destruction, and while still in the care, custody and control of the TSA (or whichever agency at the time?).

[Off Duty]

Heres a solution... People stop takin crap to the airport that they know they shouldn't!!! It's common sense! Isn't there a list of items not allowed on a commercial plane???

That wasn't the point of the thread.

The point is, do you think it was ethical, legal, etc., for this employee to help himself to items that were in the care, custody and control of a government agency, and slated for destruction?

The solution, as you mention, is obvious.

[Tony_SS]

Don't steal, the government hates competition.