Lower Control Arm Re-engineer

[AintQik]

I'll call Wilwood and see what they have to say. Everything was bought together and it was supposed to work, but obviously I have to re-look at everything. I remember asking if it effected BS and they said 3/8ths. The wheels were bought to match those hubs so....

I confirmed my wheel is 8" not 8.5" so that is a little better.

Camber may be my best bet at this point.

[MarkM66]

Fatman fab sells some control arms that are 1.5" per side more narrow then stock.

http://www.fatmanfab.com/fbody.php

[Ron.in.SoCal]

Any updates RJ?

[AintQik]

Updates, lol I continue to baffle the experts. So, here is what I'm going to do.
I'm truly hoping I screwed something up and I can get this geometry correct with no additional parts, but I doubt it. Instead of throwing money at it, I'm going to enlist the help of an expert.

Before that, I need to install the 4 link, or torque arm or whatever I'm going to do in the back. Right now I like Speedtech, BMR or Chris Alston's G-link, in no particular order. One of those is going in the car in the next few weeks. As some information to others considering a swap like this, my particular deciding factor is going to be how low I can get the car and have it still function like it needs to. That being said Speedtech is pulling a slight lead. CA's advertises 2" from factory +/- 1" and BMR has gobs of stuff on top the pumpkin that may get in the way. We'll see, but I gotta pull the trigger real soon.

As for the front, I've talked to everybody and their brother in this business and I'm stumped. Blake at Speedtech suggested Mark at SC&C look at it because he is close by. I called and talked to him and he spent a great deal of time asking questions and finally deciding that yeah he wanted to see it and we'll go from there. Much like all the companies I've dealt with, Prodigy, Speedtech, BMR, Mark was a wealth of knowledge and genuinely interested in the car. He spoke for over an hour of his precious time about cars and philosophy and he closed with no matter what, we'll fix it. I was very surprised that he wanted to do that with the absolute minimal amount of money thrown at it. He did not try to sell me anything.

Throughout our chat, it was suggested that the parts I bought, while good, quality parts, did not really and truly fix the geometry issue with these cars. They made it better, but did not fix it. Mark has a metric **** ton of suspension knowledge and I went from having my own plan to fix it, to just giving it to him to take some measurements and come up with a plan. Course, I like to do all my own stuff, but there comes a time when we all need a lil help. Without anybody looking at it, I'd do the Chicane upper mounts from Speedtech, L&H spindles and an adjustable upper control arm. After that I might still have to re-hoop the wheel to get it to fit but we will see. However, none of my other ideas worked so I guess I will get her back rolling and see what somebody else has to say.

[blackknight]

Alright, I am not sure if what I am going to say is going to help, but you never know.

I have a 78 firebird with QA1 Coil-over conversions. Factory arms, upper and lower with polygraphite bushings and polygraphite body mounts(lowered body about 1/2). I have 17" x 9.5 wheel with 275 rubber in front. It has a backspacing of 5.5 with a 1/4 spacer(to much rub on sway bar without spacer)***(if you have drop spindles i am not sure if a 17 clears your tie rod ends, mine are pretty close with this backspacing). I have factory spindles with a baer 13" track kit. the rim over hangs the top of the control arm by a 1/4"(yeah its close) and I have a small amount of tire rub at lock on the sway bar.

The front wheel is about 1/2" from the wheel well(2 inch lowered).I had 350 lb springs 11" tall.( i had to crank those springs all the way up to get the proper height)***(before i did the new wheels, had original 15 x 8 with 235 rubber) originally and polyurethane cone bump stop(about 1 1/4" tall) and I had about 1" clearance between the two. Rode well, but after i did the 17 with thin tires i noticed that they were bottoming out really bad. I have g-braces that connect my upper a arm mount to the firewall so i know when i my shock bottoms on the bump stop, the firewall creeks. I called global west and alot of people for stiffer springs, no one had stiffer then 550 for the QA1 shock design. I heard my car needed about 650 - 800lb to balance with my rear leafs. I called QA1 and they had a few old test pairs available--600lb springs(9"height i think) and 800(8 inch height), so i bought the 800. The car rides like a champ now and it fixed my problems and I have about 1.5" clearance between my bumpstop. I raised it a little bit, but still plenty adjustment in either direction). Still bottoms out when i hit a big bump, but driving on everyday roads no problem, almost never bottoms now. I have a stock 305 small block with a little upper end work(have not gotten to it yet, haha).

I figure your going to ask so, i have 180 lb leafs in the rear with a 1 racing sway bar with frame mounts and 17 x 11 with 315 rubber. I havn't had a chance to beat the crud out of it yet cauz i did the car in the late fall, but it has been good with the little fun I have had. My rear rate is alittle low but the large tire and sway bar seem to balance it out.

My car appears to sit at about the same stance and yours.

[robsquezn]

nice car

[paul67]

You have had the spring rates checked as I ordered the QA1 shoxs and springs for a big block fitted to my 67 camaro with vette up rites which give you a 2" drop,the engine i have fitted is an 96 LT1 vette and my springs are screwed to the top of the adjustment to get the car to sit like how you want,my suspicion is they are the incorrect springs ie not strong enough.

[paul67]

Crap should have read all the post ,looks like I have the same problem doh ;

[JRouche]

Ok. Been out for a while (in military). Time to get back on the 67 Camaro. For 6+ months I have been trying to figure out why I am bottoming out the coil overs. QA1, 550# springs. I have no idea, neither does anyone else. I friggin give up.

Shock valving?? Dunno, sounds like the shock has given up. The springs support the car but the shocks limit the "hit" on the springs during driving. If the compression valve for the shock is shot it will allow the car to overcome the springs during compression.

Blown shocks usually present a springy ride. But they can also present a reduced compression control while still handling the rebound cycle. So you dont get the typical "bounce" but maybe a soft compression and still a decent rebound.

Problem with that scenario is shocks dont fail in pairs. Unlikely. So it comes down to the facts known. The springs are stiff enough, unlikely the shocks failed in pairs. But Im still thinking shocks..

Are the shocks drag race shocks? If so they are weak. The valving for drag shocks are very light. You need shocks that are setup for street or road course , street might be better.

I dont know but it sounds like the shocks are drag strip shocks. You have some decent springs in place. Double check the shocks and what they were meant for? JR

[AintQik]

Well it has been a long time. People were questioning my intelligence and my sanity. The control arm people just would not believe their products were wrong. They were. Here is the car with the new arms. Perfectly centered in the wheel well and clears everywhere. I guess I could be mad I listened to them when they told me I was nuts, or I could just press on happy my car finally sits right. It only took about a year.



Sorry for the crappy pics, I got a lil grease on my cell phone. That giant puddle of oil is from a customer's 63 MG I'm fixing. It's well... being Brithish and pissing oil everywhere

[rickpaw]

So, what's the brand/maker of the new arms you have on now?

[Bryce]

Well it has been a long time. People were questioning my intelligence and my sanity. The control arm people just would not believe their products were wrong. They were. Here is the car with the new arms. Perfectly centered in the wheel well and clears everywhere. I guess I could be mad I listened to them when they told me I was nuts, or I could just press on happy my car finally sits right. It only took about a year.



Sorry for the crappy pics, I got a lil grease on my cell phone. That giant puddle of oil is from a customer's 63 MG I'm fixing. It's well... being Brithish and pissing oil everywhere

That is great news.

[MrQuick]

Ockham's razor...there you go. Good job!!

[AintQik]

Dave from protouring fbody made them. Known for his 2nd gen stuff, he has started making 1st gen. Luke from L&H hooked me up. His spindles are on there too. The arms are beautiful and use a heim joint end link. When I explained my issue Luke and Dave said yup, try this. Hard for me to swallow spending my suspension budget twice, but as long as it works. On a bright note, I got tired of waiting on my 67 so I ordered a 2012 SS... which I am waiting on to be built lol!

[AintQik]

Oh I also just realized I never updated anyone on the rear. I have the ridetech Prodigy bar in there now. I welded it in and it seems pretty stout. Best of all is I can get the thing to sit down. My only worry is pinion angle which I had to really squirm around to get it close to correct. Nice system though. Maybe I need to do a full build thread one day, but my car is so out leagued round here with my military budget.

[davidk68]

Glad you got it figured out RJ. I'm interested to know what was the exact problem with the GW arms as I have a set that I'm gonna put on my 68 camaro but haven't installed them yet

[AintQik]

The problem with the GW arms was the tire sat too far back in the wheel well and it didn't clear the fender when turned. Also, as the wheel articulated up it moved out towards the fender arch and hit there too. These "aftermarket" arms are supposed to correct much of that factory odd-ball geometry. These did not. I was told it was an install issue, I was told it was an alignment issue, I was bombarded with veiled insinuations that I was a complete moron. I'm told these products work on hundreds of cars so I'm sure you will be ok. I'm also sure I will never run these on anything else I ever build. Sucks that I had to buy everything twice on a military budget but ya live and learn. The company can swear up and down their product was flawless, but the proof is in the pictures. Only change was upper and lower arms and spindles. If you run into issues with your build let me know. Been there, done that and we are all here to help each other out.

[Ron.in.SoCal]

Looks much better RJ. Glad you got it worked out!

[JRouche]

Only change was upper and lower arms and spindles.

Im curious? The 2" dropped spindles you had? Were they bought from GW along with the original control arms? JR

[AintQik]

Yes they were. I got everything directly from Global to avoid any issues lol. The sent me another set of their standard height spindles to trouble shoot and there was no improvement. They made me pay for the second set of spindles as welll shipping both ways so I was quickly becoming annoyed, and broke using their methods. However I follow your train of thinking I did try a second set of spindles again supplied direct from GW to no avail.