Engine Advice Needed

[86Cutlass383SR]

I picked up my engine from my engine builder today. 385 SBC. 4.040 x 3.75 2pc rms 4 bolt main. AFR 190 heads. Intended usage: daily-driven hi-performance street. Idle - 6000 rpm.

I told the builder I wanted a quench ht somewhere around .040 - .045. With the .041" Felpro 1003 gasket and a zero deck I would've ended up with a .041" quench. Instead of zero decking he decked my block just enough to straighten it out. Ended up with a piston .017" down the hole. I spoke to him after he told me this and he said he would go ahead and zero deck the block.

I thought my heads were 66cc but he cc'ed the heads and they came out to 64cc so he decided (without consulting me!) to not zero deck the block "cause my compression would've been too high".

I specifically picked a certain piston just for this combo. I chose a 12cc "D" dished piston to keep the quench area flat and to keep my compression in the 10-1 area with this .040" - .045" quench.

So, I ended up with a piston .017" (in the hole), a .041" gasket, and a 12cc dished piston with 64cc heads. My quench area now figures to .058".

To top it all off, after he cleaned the block and was boring it, he said he found a hair-line crack. He never told me this until after I'd paid him and had the engine loaded up! He did sleeve the block "so it will be okay". Had I known about it before he took it on his own to sleeve my block, I'd probably just found a 400 block and got differant pistons and crank and built a 400 based engine.

I don't have the money to go thru this engine again. I scrounged all the cash I could get to get this done this time.

What would you guys do?

1) Find another shop, pull the engine back down, and have the block re-decked?

2) Find a 400 block, buy new pistons and crank, and build a new shortblock? This isn't really financially feasable for me.

3) Pull the heads and intake and install a thinner head gasket? Is a copper gasket okay for 10-1 alum head street use? I also found a Cometic multi-layer steel gasket at .030" which would give me .047 quench.

4) Run it as is and live with what I have.

He also never checked my piston to valve clearance like I asked him to do. I'm running a 230*/236* .540"/.534" 113* lsa cam (Comp 280 XFI hyd roller retro-fit) with the above mentioned 12cc "D" dished pistons and 1.5 roller rockers (instead of the recommended 1.6). Think my P-V clearance is okay? Safe enough to move up to 1.6 at a later date? At least he gave me a 1 yr warranty on his work. Would the P-V clearance still be okay with the thinner .030" gasket? I know it needs to be measured to make sure but...

If my calculations are correct, with my given combo I should have about 9.88 - 1 cr and a DCR of 8.275 with a .058" quench. According to CamQuest my IVC @ .050" is 44*. With the added 15* some programs ask for this would be 59*. With the .030" gasket my new numbers would be 10.13 - 1 and DCR of 8.483 with a .047" quench. I am running EFI with spark control in case the DCR seems a bit too high.

I need some advice ... I'm not taking this motor back to him. Nor, will I EVER go back to him or give him a good recommendation.

What would you guys do? I need some good, solid advice. If I ever do another engine, I WILL be building it myself. I just had him do it this time because he did give me a 1 yr warranty. But, he didn't build *my* engine, he built my engine *his* way.

Thanks for any advice given...

[Jim Nilsen]

Run it as is seems like the way to go for your budget.

He built it his way because he has a warranty to back up it seems.

The small amount of compression loss may be a good thing these days with the inconsistancy of fuel quality.

[jocko124]

My one concern would be will he stand behind the warranty? Time to read the fine print!

[wmhjr]

I'm not sure what I'd do. It depends on how much you paid him. To me, the warranty is worthless. Assuming you did give him specific instructions as to zero deck, piston-valve clearance I'd already have been really really ticked. To find a crack while prepping the block and not even telling you before continuing the build is absolutely unacceptable. A warranty from somebody that bad is probably worth less than a 30 day warranty from anybody else. Heck, I'd rather have no warranty from a good builder than a lifetime warranty from that guy. If your spec to him caused an issue that made him concerned about standing behind the warranty, he should have talked to you about it - not taken your money and built something else.

Problem is based on what you've written, it's probably going to be hard to squeeze blood from that rock. I'd like to say he probably isn't very successful, but these days you see hacks like this stealing money from unsuspecting victims all the time. I'd probably try running it as is, but start putting a little cash aside for a rebuild in the event it either does not perform or if it grenades on you.

One thing I'd do is post your specific experience with this guy on virtually every board you can find to help protect other people from getting ripped off. This guy needs to be flipping burgers and McDonalds.

[My427stang]

Three things

1 - The quench and DCR both seem manageable, assuming he did actually cc the heads and did degree the cam. Although .040's is the trend, anything under about .060 does a good job, especially with alum heads. I wouldn't change the head gasket. MLS can sometimes seep, although if both the heads and block were cut it shouldn't, and I just don't like shim style gaskets if I can help it, they can weep as well.

For giggles, my 489 is at 8.33 DCR, 10.7 SCR and they are .010 in the hole with a .041 gasket, it runs on mid grade, even with 38 degrees all in by 2500. Although if running it hard I run premium fuel.

2 - The sleeved hole should be fine, but it depends on the repair.

3 - The PV clearance should be checked, in addition I wonder if he degreed the cam (which makes DCR calculation just a WAG if he didn't) However, with that low lift and an assumed 108-109 ICL, it shouldn't have any clearance issues.

I think with the warranty, I'd probably just put air to #1 cylinder, swap to a set of soft checking springs and check clearance starting at 10 degrees BTDC and up to about 5 ATDC by pushing the valve down until it hits and measuring.

If you have clearance, I'd run it, and think about what you want if it doesn't work out. I sure wouldn't react too quick if budget is an issue.

One last comment, lots of old school machinists do decent work, but don't know the significance of quench versus compression but still can make some good repairs, if that's what your guy is, then it should do fine.

[Lowend]

I know you are frustrated, but honestly - it sounds to me like the guy was looking out for you.

He got your numbers where you asked them to be after finding out the heads were wrong. Should he have called you... yeah. Would it have changed anything, probably not.
But also has an investment in the job at the point he found the crack, and didn't want to give his labor away.

Run it how it is, it's going to be a great street motor

[86Cutlass383SR]

First of all, I'd like to thank all who responded. I do appreciate the advice!

He does seem like a very reputable machinist as I talked to several before letting him touch my engine. He wasn't the first I'd talked with. We spoke for a couple hours in person about my build before I even took my block/parts to him. Yeah, he did seem a bit of old-school but he also spoke and showed me several hi-perf and race engines in various stages of build. I told him my plans of the quench area, the reason I specifically chose the "D"-dished pistons, and also told him if it needed any decking, I wanted it zero-decked. He agreed with everything I told him and affirmed that it was a solid, well thought out build. I'm no David Vizard but I did do a lot of research on my combo. If there was something wrong with my plan, I'd rather him explain to me why it wouldn't work and how to fix it. Not take it on his own to change my plan.

But, after speaking with him on more than one occasion of the deck height and quench issues, I still didn't get what I wanted or paid for. With fuel injection and timing control plus the fact I was only aiming at 10-1 comp anyway, 2cc's less in combustion chamber won't make *that* big a differance. Again, it's not like I was pushing the ragged edge of streetable.

It's built and I guess I'll probably run it the way it is. Maybe I'll just start saving again for my LS? engine I've always wanted. I'll put past experience to use: I'll build it myself!

It does look like he degree'd the cam as there are small paint/chalk marks every 90* on my balancer. It is an aftermarket balancer that had the degree markings already on it so why would he need to re-mark it if he didn't degree the cam. I do believe if something was to go wrong due to his workor parts he supplied, he'd make it good. Other than that, he just won't get my business again.

My car isn't quite ready for the engine yet anyway. Mother Nature has cooperated much and since my car's being built outside until I can get it inside, it gives me time to figure out rationally just what to do.

Again, thanks for the advice.

[1968Maro]

Doug,

Sorry to hear about your issues with your engine, but it sounds like the engine you had built will be successful.

My experience so far with engine shop guys has been they are used to people dropping off a engine, saying fix it, and coming back to pick it up.

I had a very similar experience with an engine shop in Houston. It came very highly recommended. I brought a Chevy small block that somebody had bored out before me and I wanted to check out the honing / Bore before I went any farther with the block. I talked with the person at the engine shop about what I had in mind as far as building the engine. I asked him to just check out the block and the crank and call me so I could know what shape they were in and we would go from there.

He called me 2 days later and told me to come pick up the engine! It was completely assembled. He said the crank was ruined, he had swapped it out for a stroker and I owed him 2G's for the work and parts. I was really pissed we argued about what he had done without calling he said it was a miss understanding and I would be really happy with the engine. We talked more and he had done several things different than what I told him I wanted.

Well I was stuck and he had kind of done what I was thinking. I paid him and took the engine home. He told me exactly what type of exaust and carb he recommended. I had an opportunity to dyno it a few months ago and it hit 525 HP which was 75HP more than I was ever hoping to squeeze out of that engine.

I am telling you this story because some of these performance small block shops have built so many of these things they can really build the hell out of them. They suck at customer service, but they know you want power and that’s what they build their engines for.

[86Cutlass383SR]

Thanks David for that story. After thinking this over a few days I've decided to go ahead and run it the way it is. He's built far more engines than I've probably ever seen. He does give a 1 yr warranty and if I start tearing it apart and changing things, then the extra money I've paid for him to assemble with that warranty will be voided. It's not all that far off from what I'd wanted, not exactly but not far either really. I just don't have the extra cash right now anyway to redo what little differances there are. I've got far too many other things to buy to get this car drivable and then we'll find out how far off pace it is, if any.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Doug

[MonzaRacer]

With theAFR head and if theheads are straight the MLS would pretty much never leak unless torqued wrong.
as for the 18difference in the engine you will never know it and if he sleeved it and didnt charge an overly huge extra amount your golden. I had a roller LG 4 bolt block and had thought about sleeving 2 cylinders and pinning between cylinders too. instead I bough another 4 bolt roller block and had to drill and mill the sheet metal lifter guide stands in the lifter valley as they had never been milled or drilled.
over thinking .018" is gonna bother you none in the end.
Performance wise you will never know it.
Sounds like a nice build.