Best of Show Coachworks

[in2protour]

Hey everyone. I'm just venting here because I got my car back from BOS (Best of Show Coachworks) and I am not happy with the quality of workmanship of the assembly of my Camaro. Don't get me wrong, the paint job came out great but the assembling of the car is ridiculous. 1) subframe wasn't aligned to body, the alignment hole was off by 1" to 1-1/2" 2) door to fender gaps were around 1/2" 3) clips to hold fuel and brake lines not bolted to frame 4) missing hardware in some places, mis-matched hardware used to bolt things on the car (the car had all correct screws and hardware) 5) installed Vintage air unit without any o-rings 6) hardware left loose on door, even used silicone on bolt that was too short to mount window vent to door (correct screw length is about 4" long, they used a 2" long screw with silicone) 7) 4 different type and size of screws to mount lower molding clip 8) incorrect low rate bolts used to attach tubular A-arm to subframe. (I had correct length, type and rate of bolt on the A-arm) 9) was charged for new parts and found some of my old damaged parts installed. 10) I had brand new AC delco irridium sparkplugs in the engine, I found used Denso Platnium sparkplugs in my engine. The list goes on and on. Now I might get flagged for flaming BOS because somebody uses BOS for their magazine write ups. I notify BOS about the problems and they want me to bring the car back to them to fix it. Well I thought, if it was minor little things, yea I would of brought the car back to them. But the list of repairs was so long and the things they did to my car tells me that I don't think they are capable of putting the car back together correctly. I expected more from a high profile body shop that's featured in magazines but I guess I'm the only one complaining about their work. I just want to know if anyone else had issues with the quality of work BOS puts out?

[Mkelcy]

I can understand your frustration if what you've said is true, but you've also created a no-win for BOS. You apparently don't want to give them an opportunity to correct the issues that exist, yet you're venting about them here. It seems to me you should give them a chance to make it right (to the extent they agree with your criticisms) and see where you end up.

I'm not suggesting BOS did anything wrong, nor am I suggesting that you're making anything up. We here on a board are simply unable to evaluate what happened based on a single post. Good luck with your build.

[6'9"Witha69]

I can understand your frustration if what you've said is true, but you've also created a no-win for BOS. You apparently don't want to give them an opportunity to correct the issues that exist, yet you're venting about them here. It seems to me you should give them a chance to make it right (to the extent they agree with your criticisms) and see where you end up.

I'm not suggesting BOS did anything wrong, nor am I suggesting that you're making anything up. We here on a board are simply unable to evaluate what happened based on a single post. Good luck with your build.

Co-signed. This happens way too much on the internet. Give them a shot or give it a rest, please.

[Steve1968LS2]

First of all I would like to tell Tommy that I didn't delete his post. Another moderator did so that we could discuss it in the Mod forum. We contacted BOS and gave them the chance to repond to Tommy's accusations.

Over the last few months Tommy has tried very hard to drag me into his dispute with BOS. I guess this is because I use them and write stories at thier shop. Really though it's none of my business.

Nonetheless I have looked into it. As for Tommy's post I find it inconcievable that BOS would bother stealing Tommy's spark plugs, especially since nobody in the shop owns and LS car. Why would any shop steal $20 worth of stuff? According to BOS they set the engine in place that Tommy brought them.

As for the frame, well to the best of my knowledge you couldn't have a frame be off 1.5 inches if you tried. The holes are simply not large enough to allow it. I do know that BOS knows how to use a frame gauge since Penny is square to within a 100th of an inch.

In any event I can only speak to my dealings with BOS and I've found them to a be a honest and hard working shop. That's why I drive 80 miles one way to do business with them. I could find flaky shops much closer. lol

But what this all comes down to is that when Tommy picked up his car BOS told him to get it running and then bring it back and they would fix anything they missed or didn't do perfectly. They also offered to fix any scratches or nicks put in the paint during it's time at Tommy's mechanic. If Tommy refuses this offer then I can't see how BOS can be held responsible.

I have attached a letter signed by Mr. Lau. It states the the car is being picked up in an unfinished state and that further claims against Hagerty will have to be handled by him and his mechanic. It also states that he was fully refunded any monies paid to BOS by Hagerty for work they didn't get to do. From a mechanical standpoint they were only to get the car to a "rolling" state for transport.

I hope Tommy changes his mind and takes the car back to BOS. Even after this they are more than willing to stand behind thier work and their promise by fixing anything they find they missed.

I really don't know what else they could do.

Anyways, here's the attachment.

[Steve1968LS2]

And here is the note back from BOS. This case is heavily documented and anyone interested in doing business with BOS is welcome to go through the paperwork on it if they like.

Before I reply to Mr. Lau’s comments on repairs made by Best of Show Coach Works to his car, I’d like to thank Pro Touring and all the people involved with Pro Touring for helping people find shops, parts and people to help build their dream cars. On to Mr. Lau’s issues… in the attached document you will see that Mr. Lau was satisfied with repairs and he understood the car was not completed because it was being sent to the mechanic of his choice to finish all mechanical issues. I believe the statements he has made are grossly exaggerated, as he was pleased when the car left our shop. A week or so after the car left our shop, via a phone conversation, Mr. Lau informed me there were a few items that he questioned. At that time, I told him to bring the car back when the mechanic was finished and we would repair any problems which he had paid us for previously. Any extra repairs that were not a part of our original billing would be billed at our normal fees. I regret that Mr. Lau has decided not to take advantage of that offer because we have built our reputation on customer satisfaction. Often times when a car is delivered in an unfinished state it’s easy to miss a bolt or other item the is typically caught during a car’s shakedown time. Again, BOS has offered to rectify any mechanical or paint issues, but to do this Mr. Lau would have to bring us the vehicle. As to the parts discrepancies Mr. Lau mentioned we have records that he was paid by BOS for any Hagerty covered parts that he paid for out-of-pocket and the parts he brought us were used on the car and not substituted. We put the LS engine in place that Mr. Lau brought us and performed no mechanical work on the engine that involved the spark plugs. As for his claim of the subframe being installed incorrectly we feel that it isn’t possible for it be off as much as Mr. Lau states, but again we can not check the measurements without the car returning to our shop.

I think it’s also unfortunate that Mr. Lau has chosen to bring this matter into a public forum when it could have been handled in a more professional manner. Yes Mr. Lau, to the best of my knowledge you are the only one who is not ultimately satisfied with the performance of Best of Show Coach Works. I welcome the response of others who know the performance record of Best of Show Coach Works. We have complete documentation on this build/repair and anyone interested in doing business with us is welcomed to review the file.

Regards,
D!ck Kvamme
Best of Show Coach Works

[parsonsj]

I would simply add this:

Please work with the shop directly. Bringing such things up here makes you look like a whiner and a coward. Have the guts to go back to the shop that you think wronged you, and have a talk.

Every shop I've ever dealt with wanted an opportunity to set things right. Shops make mistakes. Customers make mistakes. The only way to get to the truth is to talk with the people with real information about your car: the ones that did the work.

jp

[andrewb70]

I am with John. As an old saying goes, "There is your truth, there is my truth, and there is THE TRUTH."

Bringing in third parties with no knowledge about the situation is pointless. So pretty please, with sugar on top, work it out.

Andrew

[Gandalf]

Please work with the shop directly. Bringing such things up here makes you look like a whiner and a coward. Have the guts to go back to the shop that you think wronged you, and have a talk.

Every shop I've ever dealt with wanted an opportunity to set things right. Shops make mistakes. Customers make mistakes. The only way to get to the truth is to talk with the people with real information about your car: the ones that did the work.

Well said JP, I could not agree more. I work with my (non-automotive) clients in the same way. I expect that they will let me know if they are unhappy with any of my work and allow me the opportunity to make it right. It is professional way to do business and it is widely considered just the right thing to do.

in2protour: I am sorry that you feel it appropriate to air this online like this. What a simply pu55y thing to do coming on here and posting this stuff. IMHO this behavior does nothing to forward the Pro-Touring community and in fact it does everyone involved a major diservice, yourself included. What could possibly have been your motivation by posting this here? "I'm just venting" - give me a break. If you are "just venting" then WTF are you doing asking things like "I just want to know if anyone else had issues with the quality of work BOS puts out?" I don't call that venting. Venting is what your dog/cat/significant-other is for.

Since I'm not in a position to question any of your specific claims against BOS - I will refrain from doing so, other than the one about your sparkplugs being changed on you! OMG, are you serious with this stuff?

I have seen many, many vehicles come out of BOS and I can say it blows my mind every time I see one. The level of workmanship is nothing short of outstanding. The BOS owners and crew are stand-up guys of the utmost integrity. No question. They have always gone above and beyond anytime I have interacted with them. A very good friend who has a VERY high-profile, personal collection has one of his own very rare vehicles in at BOS for a restoration. I don't think he will mind me saying that he is one of the most detail-oriented, fastideous auto enthusiasts in the area. He is also the president of a car club known for being <ahem> very particular about their vehicles. There is absolutely NO WAY he would put any of his vehicles in the hands of someone not up to the task of performing the most outstanding level of workmanship.

Having personally seen your car prior to it leaving the shop (it was sitting there, finished for quite some time). IMHO it looked like another great job to me especially the paint & body. I definitely would have mentioned 1/2" gaps to them if I had seen them myself (I own 2 first-gens so I am particularly critical).

"I notify BOS about the problems and they want me to bring the car back to them to fix it." - what did you expect them to do? Wave a magic-wand? I would have had the balls to just pick up the phone and ask when was a good time for you to bring your car back in. They offered. Why are you crying about it on here?

"I guess I'm the only one complaining about their work".....yes, I guess so. Either way, I really do hope you manage to work this out with them.

Again, Best of Show Coachworks are a great, professional shop to do business with like no other I have EVER come into contact with. I personally hold them in the highest regard and am proud to call them my friends and fellow Pro-touring enthusiasts.

G.

[James OLC]

I had the pleasure of seeing this car myself when I was fortunate enough to be in California with work last fall. In my opinion the fit, finish, and paint - as it sat at the time - was very impressive. I didn't spend a ton of time looking it over but D!ck pointed out some of the work that they had done that (to me) showed that BoS had gone the extra mile on the paint and body work.

Was it perfect? I don't know. What I do know - from my own experience - is that the owner has a responsibility to go over the car with the shop before taking delivery after a project of this magnitude. Anyone can find fault with anything after the fact - regardless of who was responsible.

[BRIAN]

Actually my post regarding pics was probably a bad idea as pics can be deceiving both ways. I would have to say if there were issues they were correctable. Just a guess but aftermarket fender?

You see tons of these posts and honestly quality is a difficult word to define. That is why it is so important to actually see finished cars and verify that is actually what you want your car to look like. Judging from pics on the net and mags is just not the way to go.

The next problem is what somone pays for the job. Body and paint is labor intensive work. Then again if you pay GNRS fees expect perfection or close to it. Too many guys paying $6-8k and expecting perfection. This isn't 1980.

Hate to see shops getting torn apart when the customer knew they were paying under value for the job. I have no idea if that is what happened here but on another site there is just the case being posted.

Make a clear list of what is wrong and present it to them. Give them a chance to correct it even if you have to pay a bit to upgrade your job. If work is then below expectations post away so others know the outcome. I do have to say guys here are defensive and a little biased but again that may be justified.

You have a shop wiling to work with you which is 1/2 the battle. Don't throw it away!!!

[Mean 69]

A disclosure before I write my response to these allegations, I am, and will continue to be for the rest of my life, good friends with the BOS crew, all of them. I will further state that I wouldn't take my own cars anywhere except for them, because having been burned in the past by a shop, and hearing all of the stories that others have dealt with, integrity from the shop I deal with is even more important to me than the quality of work. BOS offers both, honest hard work with exceptional results, and a straightforward and open explanation of what will be done, and what to expect from a cost standpoint (though none of this type of work is without unexpected surprises, the method that they approach things is to inform the cutomer and let THEM decide whether to move forward or not).

I don't know the owner of this car, but I know the car. And the story, and it's a long one to which only one side seems to want tobe presented by the accuser. I remember when it showed up having been nearly destroyed in a wreck. Since then, I have probably visited the shop 20 times, and many times, the car was just sitting there. When I asked why, the guys told me that the scope of the project seemed to creep quite a bit beyond repairing the original damage. Like major scope creep, not just a little. And scope creep costs money. Sometimes lots of money. And when the client can't pay for the work that is APPROVED BY THE CONTRACTS WHICH SHOPS LIKE THIS OPERATE UNDER, well, what else would a shop do but to work on projects that do actually ring the cash register? I don't know the details, but I do know the guys well enough to understand that this project and delayed payments put them in a very hard spot. Several times. Ever run a small business? I have, and I can tell you that situations like customers not paying when you expect it can be paralyzing, you do your side of the deal and expect that the customers also act with integrity and hold up their end of the deal. Doesn't always happen, and usually doesn't, but the episodes where it does leave a very bad taste in one's mouth that doesn't go away. You see it happening shortly into the project, and you just "know" that this was the wrong customer to bring on. You bend over backwards to please them, and then they take advantage of the fact that you are bent over and screw you.

I have an issue with their quality too though. On my own car, which they essentially re-bodied and painted, is so damn nice that I will be afraid to drive the damn thing when the time comes. This car was really damn nice too, I'd like to have some of the stuff you seem to be smoking if you feel that the gaps are off. Your car, or rather the work that BOS did to it, is outstanding. EVERY car that leaves there is exceptional, because that's the only way they do things, and that's why they have an abundance of delighted customers.

The post you started here seems to be very reflective of your personality, or at least that part of it that was demonstrated on how YOU handled this project. Kind of left that part out, eh sport?

Best of luck with the rest of your project.
M

[class67]

Pics of the problems, no pics.....who gives a $h!t!!

Any way you look at it, it is uncool to post in a public forum about your gripes with a business, any business. That is their livlihood and reputation you're messing with and trying to give them a bad rep is not cool. Keep it between the two of you!!!!!!!!!

[Steve1968LS2]

Actually, like Brian said, pics really don't mean anything since they can only tell part of the story. Although a blind person can tell that the door to fender gaps are NOWHERE near 1/2".. that's freaking HUGE.

The real point here is that BOS has offered to take care of anything they missed or did incorrectly, but the customer wont give them the chance.

Let's not bash on Tommy and try to let the response be from past customers of BOS since that is what Tommy was looking for.

[Steve1968LS2]

I have an issue with their quality too though. On my own car, which they essentially re-bodied and painted, is so damn nice that I will be afraid to drive the damn thing when the time comes.

M

And for reference Mean 69's car is the ruby red 2nd gen on the cover the Camaro Performers paint and body cover.

[DvBoard]

The real point here is that BOS has offered to take care of anything they missed or did incorrectly, but the customer wont give them the chance.

IMO the car shouldn't have been let out of the shop if there was still work to do.

It doesn't matter if it's your local mechanic or a top of the line award winning body shop, if it's not completed correctly a good shop would fix it before it leaves the first time.

Maybe my standards are too high, but just because the customer doesn't notice something is wrong doesn't mean it's OK to do. What's done wrong is still wrong, noticed or not...

[parsonsj]

if it's not completed correctly a good shop would fix it before it leaves the first time.

A couple of comments:
1. Nobody is perfect. Nobody. I don't care who you are. The complexity of a full build of any car will always mean something is missed. Ever buy a new house? Same thing.
2. This wasn't a completed car. The customer pulled it before completion, so who's to say what was agreed and what wasn't. The point is that the customer didn't go back to the shop and talk these things over and work it out. He posted here instead, thinking he'd get a lot of sympathy. Wrongo.

jp

[WS6]

Also, if i am reading everything correct, it was desired that the car be moved at a set time to a new location to have mechanical work done to it. If you have to get a car into another shop, lets say interior, do you finish the car 100% minus the interior? If you do, I sure hope you got it done before your scheduled interior time because that interior shop will not and should not wait on you. Who is to say this mechanic isn't the same way? Extensive build cars leave shops all the time unfinished in order to come back and be completed. It may be out of necessity because of order of operations or it may be because of scheduling. It happens and there's nothing wrong with it.

[Steve1968LS2]

IMO the car shouldn't have been let out of the shop if there was still work to do.

It doesn't matter if it's your local mechanic or a top of the line award winning body shop, if it's not completed correctly a good shop would fix it before it leaves the first time.

Maybe my standards are too high, but just because the customer doesn't notice something is wrong doesn't mean it's OK to do. What's done wrong is still wrong, noticed or not...

Uhh.. did you read the release? I mean really.. did you the thread or just skim it?

Tommy asked to take the car out of the shop to have the mechanical stuff done at another shop. They were instructed not the finish the car and refunded Tommy any $$$ for operations they didn't perform.

They also told him to bring the car back once it was running and that they would go over it. When it left the paint and body work was perfect and was completed. BOS can't fix a car, if there are any problems, if it's 80 miles away. Wouldn't you agree?

[zbugger]

IMO the car shouldn't have been let out of the shop if there was still work to do.

It doesn't matter if it's your local mechanic or a top of the line award winning body shop, if it's not completed correctly a good shop would fix it before it leaves the first time.

Maybe my standards are too high, but just because the customer doesn't notice something is wrong doesn't mean it's OK to do. What's done wrong is still wrong, noticed or not...

That all depends on if the owner pulls the car out of the shop before the work on the car is finished. Happens a lot, and creates a lot of issues.

[DvBoard]

I didn't read a lot in this thread. I'm not a fan of reading, and honestly have trouble not getting lost in, massive chunks of text that someone can't even bother to break into easy to read paragraphs.

In this case it seems the customer doesn't feel that the work he asked to get done and paid for was completely correctly. Maybe it was messed up at the other shop? I don't know. Should the owner really have to bring it back 80 miles to BOS for something he thought was done before he left though?


**** EDIT NOTE == massively edited due to being completely off topic **** - Rupp