Which handles better?

[CamaroJesse]

I only had my car out for a week before the motor blew up but it did give me enough time to carve some corners. Heres what i have, dse leafs (175 LB), hotchkis springs up front (600 LB) bilstein HPS shocks, frame ties, poly everything, lee 670 steering box. and a hotchkis front sway bar. i had 15 inch tires all the way around, 245-60-15 in front and 295-50-15 out back. the car didnt really handle that great. its tight, maybe too tight. The only thing in havent added yet are my ATS tall spindles and the 18 inch wheels i still have to buy. (but cant afford). I was thinking that the car would handle much better then it does. Im wondering if an LS1 trans am could end up handling better for cheaper? I really dont make that much money so if i were to sell the camaro to buy a $10,000 trans am i might be better off. But if i could make this camaro handle GOOD with what i got then i may keep it but it really is tough to afford. But if the TA could handle better then i may go that route.

thanks
Jesse

[chicane67]

Well... maybe.

$10,000 for the chassis... plus the another $10,000 in parts to actually make it handle worth a damn.

Or... you are like $6,000 away from getting to the same place, if not better than the $20k Trans Am idea.

I dunno... sounds like typical "thinking about it too much" doubt.

[CamaroJesse]

Well heres the way im looking at it. I have $25000 into my car including the price i paid for the car. The motor just blew up. I never liked the motor in the first place so if im going to spend the money on a new motor id do an LS1 and t56. Thats gonna be what? 5 maybe 6 grand? Then i need to make it handle good. O ya and i have to take my nice cage out because im too tall for the darn car. I need to get my seay back a few inches. So im just thinking about the trans am because the car will be around 9 or 10 grand and it allready has the motor i want. And it doesnt need 4000 dollar wheels like my car does. I could throw some vette wheels on or something. Im just tryting to spend the least amount of money. and have a nice handling car i can beat on on the road coarses.

[CamaroJesse]

And when you say im 6 grand away right now what would that mean i would need?

[nvmyss]

Tires will make a big difference, knock down that profile.
Step up and put on 17" or 18" so you can utilize the ATS spindle benefit of big brakes and better geometry.
You can get new 17" for under 2k
This was the latest deal on some nice wheels
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=47563

As for the TA route that is like comparing apples and oranges, a 69 Camaro is not a late model TA and you will still need to dump $$ in to it to make carve corners.

As for the motor it all depends on what you really want (reliability, gas mileage, power). Yeah a LS would be nice but like you said it will cost $ and the little things will add up quick (fuel system, ECM) do you have everything else done? You could redo your BB for less more than likely

[armourmark]

You could always go the "cheaper" route and get a LQ4. You would be adding some weight due to the iron block, but you can find these engines complete for around $1,500

[CamaroJesse]

As far as the wheels, they are a good price but i dont thinkid be happy with them. And as far as the motor, what im wanting is a car that is fuel efficient and is very reliable. I want to be able to take the car on a trip and not really have any worries. But yes it will be very expensive to drop one in my camaro. Things add up very quickly. I realize that the ta will need money to get it handling good but will it cost as much as doing say a 3 or 4 link and all the front suspension goodies on a first gen?

[zbugger]

Can you explain/describe the "tight" feeling you were experiencing?

[CamaroJesse]

It seems like instead of the ride being stiff and hard on the bumps it seemed to be so tight or stiff that it was actually bouncy going over bumps. and i beleive i felt a bit of understeer at one point. it doesnt really want to stick around corners.

[nvmyss]

You should not need much more as far as suspension on your first gen.
Lose the poly and go with new Del-a-lum upper and lower bushings to reduce binding

But like armourmark said a LQ4 would be the cheaper route but it will still be around 3k or so when your done. But it will be reliably and have some power...... a cam/head swap you'll have some good numbers.

[zbugger]

Ok, well, a couple things come to mind after reading that. First, the "bouncy" feeling could very well be attributed to the Poly bushings binding up. Do you have any squeaks? If not, you will soon. The understeer sounds like you don't have a balanced tire setup. The rears are too wide for the fronts and are keeping traction. The fronts are just going to push because of that. The 295/50's probably look cool out back, but a 255/60 would likely be a better balance for you. That, or put a rear sway bar on there and it should help with the understeer issue.

[eville]

get the 17s.
what do you have for shocks?

[68sixspeed]

get the 17s.
what do you have for shocks?

Agreed, borrow some tires/rims if you can before you get too mad at the car. If you were closer I'd let you try them for the weekend. It makes a world of difference. Also, shocks are key, if they are too stiff that can give you that bouncy feel, although leaf rears can be bouncy anyway.

One other thought, what are your alignment specs?

[CamaroJesse]

The shocks i have on there are Bilstein HPS 1000's which are suposed to be matched to the springs i have on there. The thing also wheel hops like crazy. I put traction bars on for a day or two and the hop is gone. I was thinking about goin to cal tracs maybe.

As much as i would love to put 17's or 18's on i cant afford them for a while because of the price they are to clear these C5 brakes.
Alignment specs are 0.4 and -0.1 camber. 3.2 on the caster for both sides. and 0.23 on the toe on both sides. It was weird my buddy aligned the cat and said that the drivers side camber was maxed out but he was able to get up to 2 degrees on the passenger side.

[68sixspeed]

positive camber on one side and neg on the other could do some weird stuff, but .23 toe on both sides? like .46" total? that's almost 1/2" - in or out?

Your shocks should be good, but traction bars basically cause rear suspension bind. That will make it bouncy in the rear.

[CamaroJesse]

It is more bouncy with bars out back but was still a bit bouncy before. Will the cal tracs help my wheel hop without hurting handling?

[Chad-1stGen]

Those alignment specs are pretty bad.

[chicane67]

And when you say I'm 6 grand away right now what would that mean i would need?

Wheels, tires and spindles. But then of course... you have an engine to do as well.

I'd say wheels, tires, spindles... and a real alignment. Hell... even without the wheels and tires and spindles... a real alignment would do wonders for your handling.

Something more like:

-1.5* camber both L&R
MAX caster both L&R
1/16 to 1/8" toe out

I think you are mis-interpreting 'bouncy'... for firm... or near correct valving for the springs being used. The rear suspension is going to be a lot different than what you are used to... and the rear spring and damper selected are a pretty good combination for the money.

If you want to keep it on the cheap... stay with a carbed small block. You can put together a potent little 350 that will make 425-450... on 87 octane and still get pretty good mileage... but the mileage is more related to your gearing and transmission at this point. You could always stuff a T56 on the back of a 67-85 small block now... and if you think enough ahead, to make the right parts selection, it will bolt to an LSx later when the money is there.

Dont even think that an LSx/T56 swap is going to be $5-6k... even if you got everything used... I doubt you could build a complete pile of parts for that.

And by the way... you dont need a 3 or 4 link to make a car handle well. If you would have been at the Ultimate Street Car Shootout post the SEMA convention... and if you would have seen the Shelby Mustang, with leaf springs in it, and how well it handled... you may never want a link suspension because of its cost and complexity. Trust me... the "right" leaf spring will amaze even the most hardcore skeptics.

[CamaroJesse]

Well i allready have AFX spindles and c5 brakes. They just arent on the car yet because i dont have the wheels for them. And as far as the camber, the left side is maxed out. Im thinking ill do tubular upper and control arms the same time im putting the AFX spindles on. Will that help? And whats a good small block setup to do? 425 horse and good gas milage sounds pretty good. I was thinking about redoing my big block with smaller cam, dual plain intake less compression.

Wheels, tires and spindles. But then of course... you have an engine to do as well.

I'd say wheels, tires, spindles... and a real alignment. Hell... even without the wheels and tires and spindles... a real alignment would do wonders for your handling.

Something more like:

-1.5* camber both L&R
MAX caster both L&R
1/16 to 1/8" toe out

I think you are mis-interpreting 'bouncy'... for firm... or near correct valving for the springs being used. The rear suspension is going to be a lot different than what you are used to... and the rear spring and damper selected are a pretty good combination for the money.

If you want to keep it on the cheap... stay with a carbed small block. You can put together a potent little 350 that will make 425-450... on 87 octane and still get pretty good mileage... but the mileage is more related to your gearing and transmission at this point. You could always stuff a T56 on the back of a 67-85 small block now... and if you think enough ahead, to make the right parts selection, it will bolt to an LSx later when the money is there.

Dont even think that an LSx/T56 swap is going to be $5-6k... even if you got everything used... I doubt you could build a complete pile of parts for that.

And by the way... you dont need a 3 or 4 link to make a car handle well. If you would have been at the Ultimate Street Car Shootout post the SEMA convention... and if you would have seen the Shelby Mustang, with leaf springs in it, and how well it handled... you may never want a link suspension because of its cost and complexity. Trust me... the "right" leaf spring will amaze even the most hardcore skeptics.

[DarkoNova]

Dude you don't need high dollar wheels to clear the C5 brakes. Look around for BMW wheels. I got a hell of a deal on some E46 M3 wheels new, with new tires for $600. They're 18" so they clear the brakes just fine. Look around on the forums or on ebay, they're 5x120mm which is about .5 mm off of the standard 5x4.75" Chevy bolt pattern.

Like a few other people have said, a real alignment will make a world of a difference. Even when I put the AFX spindles on, the car wasn't much better than stock because the place that did the alignment did a horrible job. I took it back and they had an old guy do it and he got it better.

Did you actually check your upper control arms? The shop that aligned my car said the same thing, the camber was maxed out so they got it as good as they could, but when I popped the hood there was a good inch or more of thread on the mounting studs.

Matt