Front setup comparison

[seekins]

I am trying to figure out what to do with the front suspenssion on my 68 camaro. full C6 or modified stock subframe with add ons.

I know what the C6 front should be like, but its not realy in the budget and i dont think i need it for my non track car.



If i go with coil overs and speedtech upper/lower arms what will the handling compare to a newer camaro. I have nothing else to compare against except stock. I plan on using toyo tires

rear suspenssion will be a G bar or jakes kit that i just found out about....

Im just a bit curious what to expect. I want a great daily driver that corners like a new car and will see a bit of 1/4 mile time..

[Rhino]

It all depends on your needs and budget. It sounds as if you're not going for extreme performance. As such, I would suggest sticking with the stock subframe and performing the Guldstrand mod in addition to a set of tubular arms, standard springs and a good set of shocks. If you don't feel comfortable with the Guldstrand mod, look into a set of ATS spindles or tall ball joints.

By searching for a few of these terms you'll find way more information than you wanted.

[seekins]

thanks, I have searched and found everything and more than i could imagine wich led me to my decision. I just couldnt find anything that compared handling to something i have driven, or can get my hands on around here to play with. I plan on going with the spindles as well as the weld in coil over conversion from ATS.

[ProdigyCustoms]

You will be very happy with your modded factory sub. We build a lot of cars from mild to wild and I get to drive them all. At at the end of the day I can honestly tell you the difference between a good modded factory subframe and a killer aftermarket sub is hard to notice in normal driving. All the advantages are in extreme conditions.

For rear suspension, ride is everything and getting rid of the leafs is a good thing for handling and ride combined.

[seekins]

Thanks, Im sure the setup will be perfect for me, but....

How will it drive/handle compared to some newer camaro's some friends have (2001-2002's) ? I am wondering how it will compare to the newer car, not compared to complete tricked out sub frames.

[David Pozzi]

My wife has a 2002 Camaro SS, the car is wonderful to drive on a trip or anywhere, very comfortable, tracks straight ahead without paying hardly any attention to steering corrections. Push it mildly on a back road and it's nice but leans a bit too much. Run it at an autocross or open track and it's leaning WAY over and is WAY too soft. It feels not so bad to the driver, but standing there watching it you can see the car is way too soft and it's not competitive with our 2007 Shelby Mustang GT in SCCA F Stock Solo II. It's flat terrible braking and turning in on a sharp autocross corner, the front washes out badly.

Maxing out the 4th gen with neg camber will get you 3/4 deg neg camber and around +3 deg positive caster. A Shelby Mustang has 2 deg neg camber, and SEVEN deg positive caster plus larger wheels and tires. Sorry for talking a lot about our 4th gen but it set's up what I am going to say in my comparison.

The extra neg camber on the 4th Camaro screws up the straight ahead tracking and you have to pay a bit more attention to steering it. Not terrible but you do have to attend to it more.

I don't really have a properly set up first gen right now to compare to, but our second gen started out with full Hotchkis TVS system and it drove great with an AGR PS box, and tracked about the same as the 4th gen did after we increased the neg camber, perhaps even better. The 2nd gen has 1 deg neg camber, 7 deg positive caster.

The 2nd gen is at least 50% stiffer than the 4th gen and you feel it on rough roads, but not on a smooth road. You'd have to reduce spring rates to almost stock to get a 4th gen feel.

Here are some 4th gen spring rates for comparison, the SS does not use the stiffer 1LE coils:
stock F-body front springs (39 N/mm, 223 lbs/in) (93-97 V6) = 22077189
stock F-body front springs (45 N/mm, 257 lbs/in) (98-00 V6) = 22133438
stock F-body front springs (51 N/mm, 292 lbs/in) (93-00 V8) = 22077197
stock F-body front springs (63 N/mm, 360 lb/in) (WS6, 1LE) = 22132887
stock F-body rear springs (16.9 N/mm, 95.4 lbs/in) (93-97 V6) = 22077418
stock F-body rear springs (19.9 N/mm, 114 lbs/in) (93-00 V8, 98-00 V6) = 22077421
stock F-body rear springs (23 to 30 N/mm, 130-170 lbs/in) (WS6, 1LE) = 22132889
========================================
First Gen Camaro rates stock
F 325 (becomes 83 lbs at the wheel!)
R 80 to 125 depending on options.

TVS First Gen
F 600 (becomes 152 at the wheel)
R 175

To get near 4th gen wheel rates you'd have to use something like a 380 go 400 front, and 125 rear. You are still lacking the bushing tuning and other NVH benefits of modern cars.

The 4th gen front coils are mounted on the McPherson Struts, so much more of the coil rate is transferred to the wheel rate. I don't have it calculated, but I can tell by how the car dives, the 4th gen is much softer than second gen Camaro.

The 4th gen has a much lighter rear axle assy, and rear coil springs instead of leafs, less rear un-sprung weight, so the rear axle doesn't bang around over bumps nearly as bad.

If you are after a 4th gen type ride, then keep the spring rates on the soft side, and add larger anti roll bars, use good shocks, improve the steering box, add more positive caster. I'd stick with stock rubber A arm and leaf spring bushings, and perhaps look at a Fiberglass rear leaf setup if horsepower isn't too high, or Frank has some good options to get rid of the leafs. A first gen has a higher center of gravity and that will cause more roll or dive compared to an equally sprung 4th gen, that means a first gen will have to use slightly higher rate springs. A properly sprung and tired First Gen can out handle a stock 4th gen.
David

[seekins]

Thanks, After reading for weeks i decided to just get the C6 front end from Jake's. Least then i know what to expect
its almost a wash price wise vs the ATS coilover conversion and labor. Im stoked to get this car going...

[Marcus SC&C]

To each his own. I`m sure you`ll be very happy with the front end you`ve chosen. For those that haven`t made up their minds though a few words. A C6 isn`t a 1st Gen Camaro. In fact it`s really not even close,they have totally different suspension requirements and actually run very mild geometry. Is it better than stock 1st gen? Hell yes. Is it ideal for a 1st Gen, nope, not even close. So unless you`re going to put your 1st gen on a diet,widen it about 6 inches,lower the CG several inches,set the motor back a foot or so and use a transaxle in the rear a C6 suspension is not going to be your best choice. How about if the C6 geometry is changed? Well then you`re starting all over again and all bets are off,it`s only C6 parts and you can`t base any of your expectations on C6 performance. There is no inherent performance advantage to using parts from a Corvette over using parts designed specifically for the Camaro. We know this,we`ve been selling a well designed C5 spindle based front suspension (our G-5) for years longer than any of these other outfits. It`s still a darn good system but the specifically designed variant of the AFX spindles still offers some advantages.
At the end of the day it`s all about geometry and setup (spring and shock rates and alignment). If you can get better geometry (for YOUR car) and a better setup with the stock subframe and bolt on parts than you can with parts from a Ferrari the bolt on setup will still work better.
I`m not saying that aftermarket subframes can`t be better than bolt ons, many of them are excellent. I`m just saying that folks shouldn`t automatically assume that they`re much better than a really well designed bolt on package.
Note: By really well designed I don`t mean cool looking parts that don`t actually improve anything. I mean parts that address these cars geometry issues and fix them.
IMO many folks would be much better off with a well modded front end (thinking AFX or Stage 2-Plus) and a good link conversion like the new Chassisworks G-Link in the rear than spending the same money on just a front subframe. It`s all about the total package. Mark SC&C

[seekins]

I did consider the fact that i might not need it , but i feel comfortable speaking with Jake about the design. Its not just C6 front end, but the way i understand it, optimized geometry for a first gen. I know some aftermarket kits don't significantly improve geometry, but with the designers behind this one i don't think its the case. The fact that it will make my LS engine install simple is a bonus. I also like the feel of Rack steering. I agree with you on the looks category, I don't buy anything "performance" based on looks. I also went with his rear suspension so it should complement eachother nicely. Its not like i overbuilt in the front.
there are 8 tracks within a few hours drive of me that will be open by the time the car is done. I will have some time to see if its good or not, but im not scared..

[hotrdblder]

As said above, its not about just c6 parts, However it just so happens that the c6 control arms are similar lengths to the 1st gen, and when PROPERLY DESIGNED(win geo) FOR A 1ST GEN work very very well. When we designed our chassis, we did not just put c6 geometry on it as some do. We just took the r/d that gm had put into the c6 arms/knuckles and used it to our advantage, designing the neg camber gain,caster, instant center,roll center, solid works designed drop steering arms, to dial in steering geometry as well as bump steer(.009out in 2.75 inches of compression,.007 in 2 inches of droop). but the steering feel,feedback and overall confidence it enspires in the driver, will allow the driver to push harder to the edge, and remain comfortable. All this and allow a 285 front tire which matches so much better to a 335 rear that so many of us run.
Heres my numbers, would you like the win geo files also?
JRS Apex C6
.85ºneg per inch of bump
7 degrees of caster built in
.009 bump steer (out)
.776 motion ratio
107 instant center
.993 rc
custom valved bilstein coil overs(not off the shelf)
speedway splined sway bar(not oem looking or working piece)
Which all of this ties into our rear tq arm package in making the car feel as ONE. Not two different systems.
The car just flat out handles and gives the driver full confidence in his equipment.
heres a video of some road course action at nhms this past weekend, it was our first time at this track. We ran a 1:21 in the time trials, good for 3rd in our class which is prepared-a. A turner motorsports race prepped bmw m3 beat us as he ran a 1:17.9 on dedicated race slicks, he had practice slicks,rain slicks and time trial slicks all on 3 pc wheels. We are heading there this weekend also, looking to run some 1:18's on dot r tires not slicks.We have many more track days coming up, so we make tuning for the end user very easy and makes the learning curve almost non existent because we eliminate the chassis tuning side of it, so you the driver can concentrate on learning the course and getting yourself up to speed without worrying about the car.

[maldo]

[seekins]

Dang, I'm going to have to learn how to drive.

[Rick Dorion]

Also see my thread on the ride I had in Jake's car

[Bow Tie 67]

till the spring event when we get to stretch the legs at a real track event.

As said above, its not about just c6 parts, However it just so happens that the c6 control arms are similar lengths to the 1st gen, and when PROPERLY DESIGNED(win geo) FOR A 1ST GEN work very very well. When we designed our chassis, we did not just put c6 geometry on it as some do. We just took the r/d that gm had put into the c6 arms/knuckles and used it to our advantage, designing the neg camber gain,caster, instant center,roll center, solid works designed drop steering arms, to dial in steering geometry as well as bump steer(.009out in 2.75 inches of compression,.007 in 2 inches of droop). but the steering feel,feedback and overall confidence it enspires in the driver, will allow the driver to push harder to the edge, and remain comfortable. All this and allow a 285 front tire which matches so much better to a 335 rear that so many of us run.
Heres my numbers, would you like the win geo files also?
JRS Apex C6
.85ºneg per inch of bump
7 degrees of caster built in
.009 bump steer (out)
.776 motion ratio
107 instant center
.993 rc
custom valved bilstein coil overs(not off the shelf)
speedway splined sway bar(not oem looking or working piece)
Which all of this ties into our rear tq arm package in making the car feel as ONE. Not two different systems.
The car just flat out handles and gives the driver full confidence in his equipment.
heres a video of some road course action at nhms this past weekend, it was our first time at this track. We ran a 1:21 in the time trials, good for 3rd in our class which is prepared-a. A turner motorsports race prepped bmw m3 beat us as he ran a 1:17.9 on dedicated race slicks, he had practice slicks,rain slicks and time trial slicks all on 3 pc wheels. We are heading there this weekend also, looking to run some 1:18's on dot r tires not slicks.We have many more track days coming up, so we make tuning for the end user very easy and makes the learning curve almost non existent because we eliminate the chassis tuning side of it, so you the driver can concentrate on learning the course and getting yourself up to speed without worrying about the car.

[David Sloan]

You cant go wrong with Jakes suspension.
I think its the real deal!!

I have the front end in the shop car now an will be doing the rear soon!!
Its is really nice working with Jake, He is not just telling you what you want to here to make the sale.

[T_Raven]

hey what's up seekins?
after seeing that you are in lewiston i check what other threads you had started to see if you had any pics of your car. it sounds like you and i have a lot of the same questions about suspension.

the deciding factor on keeping my factory sub frame or going aftermarket will probably be tire clearance. i bought a slightly used set of fikse wheels, the fronts are 8.5" will 255s. i've seen cars will 8.5" wheels on the stock subframe but i can't image the turning radius is very good considering how much it sucks with the 235s i have now rubbing on the frame. i'm in iraq and haven't been able to check the clearance of the new wheels yet. i was pretty shocked when i started adding up parts for a stock sub and it's almost just as much as an aftermarket sub frame. i like ATS's Chicane package but the highest optioned set is just as much as an Art Morrison sub frame. but with the AME unit i get more clearance for tires and headers, as well as for my ls1's oil pan thanks to the front steering rack.

i also think that i want an air ride level pro kit and i'd rather have the AME sub than have to cut my factory sub.

but anyway, i'm interested to see your progress and when i get back to idaho i'll have to come check your car out

[seekins]

Raven, If you are going to do slight mods, i think keeping the stock SF is fine, but after all the work to convert to coil overs you are still left with a stock sub frame and without rack steering. I will be running 275ft / 335 rear tires.

I hope to have this car on the road sometime this summer. stop by and you can take it for a drive with Jake's suspension and see what you think. There are 8 road tracks opening within driving distance of us, so i am going to build accordingly.

I will start a build thread after i get the rendering done and a few other ideas drawn up. its a 68 camaro.

Stay safe and thanks for your service...

[T_Raven]

yeah i'm leaning towards the AME sub, though i'll look into the ones offered by 21st century street machines and Jake's.

where are these 8 tracks? i was looking online recently and the only ones i could find were on the west coast. are their any closer than that? i'll be home again sometime this summer for a few weeks so i'll have to stop by and see the car.

[T_Raven]

Hey Seekins did you buy a subframe yet? I'll be home for a few weeks in feb. I might have to stop buy and see what you've got goin on.

[seekins]

I sure did. I got a front and rear setup from Jakes. I wont have it for a while, but wont be ready for suspenssion until this summer. I think i just purchased a wrecked 04' gto too as a donor car

Give me a call when you come back. 208-791-8741