DSE or art morrison?

[rubbersdown]

What should I get... I hear that DSE makes great parts and I know morrison does also. So here is my dillema. I am either going to go with a stock subframe and a DSE speed kit 3.
OR get a full Art Morrison subframe and front end suspension.
I am not a big fan on DSE's subframe, I do not like hydroformed look or the stamped style crossmembers. This is why I say a DSE speed kit stage 3 or a FULL Art Morrison front end. Is the extra $1500 or so worth the art morrison subframe and c5 suspension? or should I just stick with the stock subframe? I dont race, it is going to be a SEMI-daily driver (couple times a week) and maybe once a month a 200 miletrip up north.

Also, I will more then likely be going with a g bar for the rear but would like to hear your opinions on the g-bar vs. the quadralink.
thanks in advance

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

well.. im running AM.

but you cant go wrong with either one.. they are the leaders of the game.

[andrewb70]

.....I dont race, it is going to be a SEMI-daily driver (couple times a week) and maybe once a month a 200 miletrip up north.

.....

Get yourself some stiffer springs, poly bushings, a little bigger sway bar, and do the G-mod. Save yourself a bundle of cash.

Andrew

[BrianP]

I do not like hydroformed look or the stamped style crossmembers.

When I look at the DSE subframe I see strength, durability, torsional stiffess. It's a thing of beauty to me.

[dhutton]

I chose the AME subframe over the DSE coilover conversion because I didn't want to have to drop the control arm everytime I wanted to adjust the coilovers. I'm sure the system works well but that feature is a PITA.

Don

[Fesler built]

I chose the AME subframe over the DSE coilover conversion because I didn't want to have to drop the control arm everytime I wanted to adjust the coilovers. I'm sure the system works well but that feature is a PITA.

Don

Agree I dont understand why anyone would want to pull the suspension apart to adjust things, work smarter not harder

[67bird]

have you looked at ATS Chicane?

[ProdigyCustoms]

I do not think the DSE speedkit can fairly be compared to the Corvette suspended, rack and pinion, chassis from AME. Now if you were compareing the DSE frame to the AME frame, that would be a equal comparison and I would be saying you should pick the one that looks the way you want your frame to look, because I believe they are equal in quality and the numbers are there also.

To me, if I were going to spend $4000 to mod a stock subframe, this would be a area where I would bite the bullet and spend up for the complete subframe.

Now if I were just doing some control arms, spindles, steering box, sway bar, steering rebuild kit, Coil springs and shocks, and spending $2500 I would have a different opinion.

It is really mostly about your budget and the theme of the car in general. If you doing a full on mini tub, 4 link, 3 piece wheel, 14" brake, 600HP+, bla, bla, bla, car, you should probably do a subframe or you may be under building this area of the project. If your not mini tubbing, your running 12" brakes and 17" TT2s and a crate 350, your still building a very nice car, but your probably over building this area by doing a high end subframe.

I would say 75% of the calls to our tech line deal with project planning. Trying to find the right combination of parts so as not to over or under build in any area. And more often then not we find people over building some areas and under building other areas.

Again, these are just our opinions, and you know what they say about opinions!

[ProdigyCustoms]

Duplicate

[dhutton]

The other reason I chose the AME subframe is because it can save you money if you are also doing an LSx conversion if you can live with the factory accessories and stock F body oil pan. Once you add those savings (aftermarket accessories plus conversion oil pan) to the cost of upgrading a stock subframe you can very quickly get to the price of an AME subframe.

Don

[BRIAN]

Why would you chose a subframe based on how it looks? Hydroforming is an OEM type proceedure that I am sure costs DSE a fortune. Not that 2x3 rails dont get the job done. Not sure I am understannding you correctly??

Think about all the race cars that ran stock subs with modded parts. At some point the prices do come close and new parts are usually easier to work with.

This is a site about drivers but you are not alone on picking parts on their looks vs performance.

[dhutton]

Why would you chose a subframe based on how it looks? Hydroforming is an OEM type proceedure that I am sure costs DSE a fortune. Not that 2x3 rails dont get the job done. Not sure I am understannding you correctly??

Think about all the race cars that ran stock subs with modded parts. At some point the prices do come close and new parts are usually easier to work with.

This is a site about drivers but you are not alone on picking parts on their looks vs performance.

I think the point is that AME and DSE subframes are equal in performance so you might as well choose the look you like - hydroformed or fabricated. Some prefer one over the other.

Don

[rubbersdown]

Why would you chose a subframe based on how it looks? Hydroforming is an OEM type proceedure that I am sure costs DSE a fortune. Not that 2x3 rails dont get the job done. Not sure I am understannding you correctly??

Think about all the race cars that ran stock subs with modded parts. At some point the prices do come close and new parts are usually easier to work with.

This is a site about drivers but you are not alone on picking parts on their looks vs performance.

I understand that, sorry I didnt choose my words very wisely. I mean that I dont like the looks of the hydroformed subframe as in to ME personally the AME looks stronger, im sure the DSE is plenty strong and its all in my head though.
Does the dse use c5 or c6 parts or does DSE use their own geometry and parts with their subframe? I am leaning pretty heavy twords the ame at this point.

I am torn in my engine choice right now between an lsx or a dart block 572. I want around 600RWHP on pump gas so i am leaning twords a 572.

[PARKERRS]

I wouldn't think that the DSE is weaker in any way compared to the AME, just a different method and appearance. As stated both are pretty much eqaul as far as performance. If you think the DSE isn't tested and durable check out the posts about the Year One Event. Kyle and Stacy drove the car down which is 300 miles, then beat on it at the auto cross and on the Road Atlanta track non stop all weekend to the tune of over 300 miles of 9/10s driving, then drove it back home without a problem. This is real world testing and they have been doing it to the hydro formed frame in this car for more than a year now at all events, seems strong enough for me.
Tommy

[vp23271]

have you looked at ATS Chicane?

+1

If you decide to stick with the stock subframe, look into the ATS Chicane mod. A forum member on this site Reboot04 has done the mod and taken a lot of pics. I believe this will give you access to the coil overs to adjust them without having to remove them from the car.
http://www.onelapcamaro.com/

If you go with the Chicane, you might spend close to what the DSE or AME cost once you factor in control arms, spindles and coil overs. So 2x check the numbers and your budget.

The DSE and AME frame are both top notch and you can't go wrong with either one.

2 factors that you might want to consider is weight and how wide of a tire each frame will allow.

[XLexusTech]

Reading you post without any selfish motive one way of the other the words that stand out to me are "Daily driver" "No racing" and "Looks"
So here are my thoughts if you are going for looks then GO AM and also look @ the Speed-Tech subframe. The look of both of these is great. If you want a daily driver with good performance and ride then dont buy either cause you have no need for them.

[rubbersdown]

Reading you post without any selfish motive one way of the other the words that stand out to me are "Daily driver" "No racing" and "Looks"
So here are my thoughts if you are going for looks then GO AM and also look @ the Speed-Tech subframe. The look of both of these is great. If you want a daily driver with good performance and ride then dont buy either cause you have no need for them.

What if I want a good looking daily driver? lol. I personally am more into performance than looks. But the AEM offers both and the c5 suspension is a tried and true setup. remember again I am going to shoot for a little over 600RWHP so it needs to be something that is going to handle good and I know the c5 suspension is up to the task (I happen to get airborn and went through a small brick wall and into a tree at 92mph in a c5 corvette and I think the suspension is all that survived lol, I have pics of the car ill try to find them and post them). I honestly am not worried about the cost as I dont really have any kind of budget per-say but im not looking to throw money away. I am just trying to figure out what is the best setup I can get for what im trying to acomplish... A 600hp daily driver with the suspension to throw it around some corners at speed with no problems. Is that to much to ask? lol probably

[hotrdblder]

take a look at my chassis, it uses c6 control arms, has custom cnc drop steering arms, custom steering rack, custom tuned bilstein coil overs, and designed by our resident susp master, katz tsubai aka(saltracer) we will have our test car at nashville and columbus goodguys thrashing it as hard as we can, feel free to come out for a ride or drive.kenny davis hot rods is getting one for there chevelle, perfection autosport has one coming for a project and tyler at ats has one coming for a customer project.
goodluck, your project sounds great, any of your choices will fit you well.
jake
ps. for the susp guys
.85 - camber gain per inch of bump
.776 motion ratio
107 instant center
.815 roll center
.010 bumpsteer, bump out
61.5 track width

[rubbersdown]

take a look at my chassis, it uses c6 control arms, has custom cnc drop steering arms, custom steering rack, custom tuned bilstein coil overs, and designed by our resident susp master, katz tsubai aka(saltracer) we will have our test car at nashville and columbus goodguys thrashing it as hard as we can, feel free to come out for a ride or drive.kenny davis hot rods is getting one for there chevelle, perfection autosport has one coming for a project and tyler at ats has one coming for a customer project.
goodluck, your project sounds great, any of your choices will fit you well.
jake
ps. for the susp guys
.85 - camber gain per inch of bump
.776 motion ratio
107 instant center
.815 roll center
.010 bumpsteer, bump out
61.5 track width

your chassis looks pretty nice, I saw your website as well. Does your website price include the shocks and spindles? also, does the chassis have all tabs to mount bumpers, fenders, and all that type of stock stuff?

[silver69camaro]

Here we go...

Not that 2x3 rails dont get the job done.

2x4 actually. Assuming you were referring to our subframe.

I think the point is that AME and DSE subframes are equal in performance so you might as well choose the look you like - hydroformed or fabricated. Some prefer one over the other.

I agree 100%. Our subframes are so similar in performance, nobody here would be able to tell the difference.

Does the dse use c5 or c6 parts or does DSE use their own geometry and parts with their subframe?

Neither of us use stock geometry. We (AME) chose to use the stock forged aluminum LCA and UCAs, DSE decided to make their own. Both AME and DSE have modified geometry.

I wouldn't think that the DSE is weaker in any way compared to the AME

Correct. See, the stock subframe is pretty good. People throw words out like "torsional stiffness" and "flimsy" when referring to the stock subframe. Actually, it's quite stiff for what it is. There are two problem areas:
1. Excess weight - the stock subframe could be made lighter while maintaining the stock stiffness. That was my goal and I acheived it by shaving close to 40lbs off. I'm sure DSE's is lighter as well.
2. Geometry - Every subframe, aftermarket or not, will suffer from the fact that the two rear legs of the subframe are hangin' out in space...flimsy as can be. You can't get around that. So are we really gaining anything by buying a "stiffer" subframe? No, because the ONLY benefits you can gain are by using subframe connectors or some front end bracing (and don't just stick some tube from the radiator support to the firewall, you need a full cage).

2 factors that you might want to consider is weight and how wide of a tire each frame will allow.

Actually, both DSE and AME subframes allow a 275mm tire on a 10" rim. I'm not sure about the weight difference, but I bet it's close.

Anyway, these threads are always a good and bad thing. Good because they bring up the discussion and techinical thinking about theory and overall performance benifits; bad because very few people who actually have seat time in a car equipped with any aftermarket subframe at all. Also, the few actual high-performance subframes out there today are so close in performance it's rediculous, and spending hours and hours on end comparing RCs and camber gains makes no sense. Choosing a different tire compound will result in a larger difference in handling.

So what's the answer? IMO, go with your gut feeling. You can't go wrong.