One Piece wheels VS. Three Piece wheels.... Help Please

[Boesch]

On the 2 piece?

Yes they are.

[Boesch]

Sorry to the vendors on here....didn't mean to speak bad about them when referring to the middle man. That wasn't my intention. We've taken the decision to not have dealers after having them in the past. Clearly I can see it was taken that way by some forum vendors and I'm sorry and apologize to them.



To 430 hp 70, here's why our three piece are more expensive than a two piece:

Two piece = Single rim hoop and single forged center that are welded together. welding is a pretty simple process and doesn't take long.

Three piece = Two rim hoops, forged center, and many titanium bolts. The assembly process is done by hand and is very time consuming. Each rivet is hand torqued in a specific pattern. Once the three pieces are together they are sealed around the outside to ensure no air leakage.

So at the end of the day, there are more parts and pieces in a 3 piece that requires more manual labor time. Therefore a higher price.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Yes they are.

Awesome, did not know that. Thank You.

[TonyL]

Might annealing(sp?) from the welding process be a factor for those complaining that two piece wheels are easier to bend? Or do they re temper them after they are welded?

/really doesn't know.
//Good info so far in the thread though.

[aray327]

All this debate is great! But it looks to me like all the dealers and manufactuers have very carefully avoided dealing with the issue. Price, Price, Price.

I can't believe there is sooo little profit in a $3,000 set of wheels that you can't bring that price down.

If the profit were so little, why is the manufacuter selling for the full retail price? Why can't consumers take advantage of that savings?

Just because everyone else is doing it doesn't make it right! Set the new trend in price. I'm betting there is $1,000 in true profit in a set of each of these high dollar wheels.

Quit the debates amongst other dealers and deal with us, THE CONSUMER. Remember we are the reason each of you is in business.

I am looking for wheels right at this moment. I have high hopes of purchasing a set of wheels this week. All of you guys have wheels I would like to own, but each of you has been tip-toeing around the price issue. I would bet there are several others in my same boat.

[Fesler built]

Actually there is not that much room in them that is why they are so hard to sale. For example a set of 19-inch Fesler FS 901 wheels will retail for $1100 each in a standard gloss black, silver or gun metal. I will sale this wheel for just about $900.00 each so as you can see I am passing the savings along to you guys. I am lucky to make a few hundred dollars on a set of wheels after all the BS of ordering and shipping.....

There are some guys that can buy more so they get a better deal on parts, so that is why they can sometimes beat other prices out there. I can only afford to buy so much so I cant get the huge discounts like larger companies can.

I did not start this thread to cause a problem but to only find out why someone will pay the same amount for a Billet wheel that is softer and will take up to 8-10 weeks to get or longer I have waiting 14 weeks for wheels. I can do anything in the wide ranges fast and I know that not all can afford the three piece stuff but if you are having something custom built from Budnik, Boze or others you can.

Jon from Drivers Inc should jump in here and help explain what is going on with all the wheel companies, he sales alot of wheels and worked at Budnik for years.

All this debate is great! But it looks to me like all the dealers and manufactuers have very carefully avoided dealing with the issue. Price, Price, Price.

I can't believe there is sooo little profit in a $3,000 set of wheels that you can't bring that price down.

If the profit were so little, why is the manufacuter selling for the full retail price? Why can't consumers take advantage of that savings?

Just because everyone else is doing it doesn't make it right! Set the new trend in price. I'm betting there is $1,000 in true profit in a set of each of these high dollar wheels.

Quit the debates amongst other dealers and deal with us, THE CONSUMER. Remember we are the reason each of you is in business.

I am looking for wheels right at this moment. I have high hopes of purchasing a set of wheels this week. All of you guys have wheels I would like to own, but each of you has been tip-toeing around the price issue. I would bet there are several others in my same boat.

[Boesch]

Might annealing(sp?) from the welding process be a factor for those complaining that two piece wheels are easier to bend? Or do they re temper them after they are welded?

/really doesn't know.
//Good info so far in the thread though.

Welding does indeed locally affect the strength of the rim. Most of the welding on a two piece wheel should be done in an area though that doesn't affect strength. On those widths that are custom made, such as a 12" width because no one makes a 12" wide hoop, it can make a larger difference. It depends if you widen a hoop (2 welds on each side of a strip that's added) or if you use two hoops to make one (one weld in the center).

There are two different styles of hoops for two piece wheels as well. The stepped lip and the rolled lip. They very greatly in bending stiffness simply due to geometry.

[The WidowMaker]

i would then assume that the stepped lip has greater strength. each bend should add strength, just a a bead does in a flat sheet of steel. correct?

i thought all of the materials were the same in the high end stuff. 6061 for the hoops and center sections and its all forged.

[rjsjea]

Why arent a couple more companies investing in making their own hoops if only a couple companies produce them........I realize most wheel companies dont own aluminum plants but....

I am sure China will be producing hoops soon enough...

Great thread, as I am in the market for a 3pc wheel with the rears being 12" wide.

[vp23271]

I am sure China will be producing hoops soon enough...

I would not be surprised if China is where we are getting the hoops now.

[Boesch]

I would not be surprised if China is where we are getting the hoops now.

Nope...all of our hoops and forgings are made in the USA.

[vp23271]

Nope...all of our hoops and forgings are made in the USA.

That is good to hear!

[1offwizard]

As a VERY SMALL fish in the billet community I can tell you for certain that my cost on a set of wheels has gone up 17% in the last 20 months. We have had only a marginal increase in our wheel prices and have not increased the price of our steering wheels in 8 years. It is a constant struggle to stay out of the red, but I tell people all the time I only do this to go to shows and see the cars!

[Nine Ball]

Intro makes nice wheels, I was happy with my two previous sets. Not everyone needs ultra-light racing wheels (Fikse, Forgeline) or the costs that go with those. I kind of smirk about guys spending the extra bucks on some racing wheels and put them on a 13-second car. It is very obvious that hardly anyone buys wheels based on purpose, it is more about the appearance. If I can find a lower priced 2-piece wheel that fits the theme I'm after, I'm not going to complain that it isn't 3-piece or that it doesn't have titanium hardware. I just want the wheels to be well built and look nice, just like the majority of wheel buyers.

3-piece wheels simply cost more. To some, this fits their budget. I sell 2 and 3 piece wheels, but always try to recommend the lower priced 2-piece version if the buyer isn't building a road race car. I see guys installing mini-tubs to stick a 12" wheel under the car, but they don't narrow the rear axle and the net result is the outward appearance still looks like you have a 10" wheel with the factory backspacing. You could just narrow the axle and run a deep dish 10" wheel if you want the look. Does a 13-second car really need a 345 wide tire? lol

Hate to say it, but 75% of pro-touring is about appearance. Most of these cars aren't built to perform to the limits of the hardware being installed. That goes for wheels too.

Tony

[Vegas69]

Couldn't agree more.

[DriverzInc]

Actually there is not that much room in them that is why they are so hard to sale. For example a set of 19-inch Fesler FS 901 wheels will retail for $1100 each in a standard gloss black, silver or gun metal. I will sale this wheel for just about $900.00 each so as you can see I am passing the savings along to you guys. I am lucky to make a few hundred dollars on a set of wheels after all the BS of ordering and shipping.....

There are some guys that can buy more so they get a better deal on parts, so that is why they can sometimes beat other prices out there. I can only afford to buy so much so I can’t get the huge discounts like larger companies can.

I did not start this thread to cause a problem but to only find out why someone will pay the same amount for a Billet wheel that is softer and will take up to 8-10 weeks to get or longer I have waiting 14 weeks for wheels. I can do anything in the wide ranges fast and I know that not all can afford the three piece stuff but if you are having something custom built from Budnik, Boze or others you can.

Jon from Drivers Inc should jump in here and help explain what is going on with all the wheel companies, he sales alot of wheels and worked at Budnik for years.

Okay, you called me out, and I'll stop just reading this thread in silence and contribute. There are SO many good points to touch on here...

First, let's all remember that we, dealers, AND manufacturer's are here to make a living selling wheels. So approach this thinking like a business man a little more, and less like a consumer, who thinks parts, widgets, wheels, should be sold at cost to build. If we did this, none of us would be here and produce wheels for you all to buy. We have mouths to feed, rent to pay on our buildings, CNC's to buy, maintain, employees, health benefits for said employees, etc. So, I can tell you with our Rushforth Line, of course there is profit in each wheel sale, but that profit goes to all of the for-mentioned, not direct into our personal bank accounts. For example, I have no problem in saying that since I've started Driverz, Inc., I have yet to write myself any type of paycheck or profit sharing check. It all gets rolled back into the company. Thank God my wife works. And understands that someday maybe after all this hard work, I will be able to draw a pay check for my time. But for now, it's all initial investment.

Second, outer hoops in a two piece billet wheel are made out of two grades of aluminum these days. Before, they were all rolled out of 5054 grade aluminum, across the board, until a new company early last year came to the table with a 6061-t6 not rolled, but pressed hoop. They are also offering that same hoop now in 18x12, 20x12, and 20x15. So in the early days, us manufacturer's were having to weld two outer 10" hoops together to go wide, but now this newer company has alleviated having to do a lot of that. However, recently that said company is up and moving plants to California, and it's recently been hard to get product from them, so we're all relying on our past resources for the time being, as alot of wheel manufacturer's are running out of stock. Speaking of stock,

Three piece wheels require more labor and more stocking parts to build. For example, in your two piece, the center section can be just dropped in to a desired width outer and welded to the ordered offset.... in Three piece, to get offsets, not only are you having to mill down the pad lengths to get the correct offset (so now you have more machine time), manufacturers are also having to stock front AND back rim shells in all kinds of different increments to gain offset. So now, say a two piece manufacturer who normally stocks say 200 rim shells in an 18x10, now has to stock an exponential amount of 18" diameter front and rear shells. So more stocking parts, means more $$ out of manufacturer's pocket, equals again more money to produce, and ultimately the need to retail for a higher amount.

I also read a comment about powder coating, and the 300 dollar charge. Hardly any wheel manufacturers, other than HRE, powder coat in house. It's an outside process, which requires transporting wheel centers to the powder coater, and back to the manufacturer, paying for gas, truck, driver, to and from the vendor. So sure if you drove your own wheels out to the powder coater, you may pay a little less, but are you considering gas back and forth to the powder coater, and your own time which would be paid to a laborer to do that work? This isn't even considering insurance on that truck, or health benefits for that employee. On our Rushforth Wheels, we don’t' make ANY money on powder coat, after all of that is factored in.

Another topic again is the difference between terms, and their actual definitions. The term Billet gets thrown around a lot. By definition, billet just means it's cut out of one solid piece. For example, Louisville Slugger bats are cut out of a "billet" piece of wood. So billet is not synonymous with anything metal. Just defines that the product was formed, from one solid piece. Forged is a better description for a wheel. You have forged wheels, and cast wheels. Forged wheels, like Budnik, Billet Specialties, Intro, Rushforth, Asanti, Fesler, Forgeline, all start life from a heat treated 6061-t6 forging. One piece wheels, are NOT for the most part, machined from a big square of billet. They are casted from a mold. Which means aluminum is melted down, and poured into a casting. This process is cheaper, and usually farmed out to overseas (China). Which is why your one piece wheels are less expensive, offered in set dimensions, and are also technically not as strong.

Dealers and MSRP. Come on really? First of all, I can tell you a wheel manufacturer would be hard pressed to touch as many customers as possible without dealers. I can tell you from experience, dealers are vital to success. Exposure alone, is huge help. I'm sure Intro would agree that without some of those early dealers from when they first started, they wouldn’t be where they are today. A wheel manufacturer would be smart to have dealers, as they are crucial in a company's success. While I was at Budnik, our dealers were our lifeline. Company's like Detroit Speed, Discount Tire, etc, make it easier to order wheels for the end user. But you can't sell for under what a dealer can, which is when business ethics get involved, with such things like MSRP. Company's like Forgeline, American Racing, our own Rushforth Wheels, all monitor what dealers sell their product for, and if you are consistently lower than MSRP, you'll be cut out as a dealer, because it lowers the value of the product across the board. If I sold Forgeline at 15% lower than MSRP all day long, and only made 100 bucks, don't you think Forgeline, and other dealers like Prodigy would get a little pissed? I would almost be literally taking food out of their mouths. And it does no good for any one involved to whore out a product. So, I challenge someone who is arguing over the price of a wheel to go out, quit your job and steady pay check, and start your own wheel company.

[CamaroLance]

That was a great post nine ball... My thoughts exactly.

[Boesch]

Great post Jon.

[vp23271]

Jon,

Thanks for posting! You shed some good light from the dealers/mfg's view.

[vp23271]

Second, outer hoops in a two piece billet wheel are made out of two grades of aluminum these days. Before, they were all rolled out of 5054 grade aluminum, across the board, until a new company early last year came to the table with a 6061-t6 not rolled, but pressed hoop. They are also offering that same hoop now in 18x12, 20x12, and 20x15.

Jon,

Out of curiosity do the 6061-t6 pressed hoops have a solid lip or hollow lip. I have seen both and was wondering which is a better product in your opinion. Maybe the hollow lip was a bi-product of the rolled 5054 aluminum?

I should be ready to order up a set of wheels in the next 6 months and I have narrowed it down to 2 wheels styles. You carry both brands that I like and will give you a call after my brakes and rotors are installed and I have the necessary measurements.