Does anyone make a direct injection kit for anything?

[aggressive male]

I was wondering if anyone makes any kind of direct injection kit with the fuel injectors squirting direcly into the cylinders like on late model bmw's? If not can anything like this be expected anytime soon?

[megaladon6]

that's more than a FI kit. that's heads and everything. most oem companies are still working out the bugs in it for gas engines. i wouldn't expect one soon.

[dannyho]

i though gm was thinking about putting one in the new camaro.

[megaladon6]

some of the oem's are coming out with it for the gas engines but they just need to work out some bugs. plus, i like gm, but i bet it will have issues when they release it. vw been working on it for years, since it works so well on the diesels, and they still don't have it. .i beleive that mazda has a DI system out there but they're not making a big deal out of it. yet.

[Blown353]

i though gm was thinking about putting one in the new camaro.

GM already uses direct injection in some of the Ecotecs.

Quite a few OE's are using it now... Mazda, GM, Isuzu, Toyota, VW/Audi, and BMW all come to mind immediately and I'm sure there are more.

[aggressive male]

Thanks for the replies guys. I was wondering if someone could answer something else for me. I'm starting to get the feeling that any kind of new technology like that has to be tried out on new cars before anyone makes anything like it for the aftermarket. To me that's like saying a Dell or a Gateway computer is going to be better than a custom computer you buy all the parts for seperatly. Can anyone explain this to me? I had the idea racers and hot rodders did all the cutting edge stuff and it came out later in new cars.

[andrewb70]

Thanks for the replies guys. I was wondering if someone could answer something else for me. I'm starting to get the feeling that any kind of new technology like that has to be tried out on new cars before anyone makes anything like it for the aftermarket. To me that's like saying a Dell or a Gateway computer is going to be better than a custom computer you buy all the parts for seperatly. Can anyone explain this to me? I had the idea racers and hot rodders did all the cutting edge stuff and it came out later in new cars.

The driving force behind technological innovation for the OEMs is the ever stringent emissions standards and fuel economy. When it comes to things like direct injection the OEMs have the money and manpower for the R&D that is involved. From a performance standpoint I doubt that direct injection has any real benefits compared to a properly tuned SEFI system.

The main disadvantage I see with adapting direct injection into older vehicles is the fuel system. From what I understand the direct injection systems operate at at very high fuel pressures (1200psi). This creates all kinds of issues when adapting it to older vehicles without a great deal of benefit to the average hotrodder.

Andrew

[Hammered]

From a performance standpoint I doubt that direct injection has any real benefits compared to a properly tuned SEFI system.

The main disadvantage I see with adapting direct injection into older vehicles is the fuel system. From what I understand the direct injection systems operate at at very high fuel pressures (1200psi). This creates all kinds of issues when adapting it to older vehicles without a great deal of benefit to the average hotrodder.

Andrew

People will still do it because it's different and/or cool.

[andrewb70]

People will still do it because it's different and/or cool.

Maybe 20 years from now. Many hotrodders still have a huge learning curve when it comes to simple EFI systems. There is also the fairly correct arguement that carbs make as much HP as EFI. So for many it is easier to keep things simple.

I think the LSx engine family controbuted more to the adoption of EFI into older vehicles then any other technology or innovation in years past.

Andrew

[matty b]

Direct injection is used for more than emissions and fuel economy, the performance gains are very good. Imagine a 10.5;1 turbo motor that can run all day on 87 octane all day long and make almost 2 hp per cubic inch or add some 91 octane and crank the boost up and try 3-3.5 hp per cubic inch. All this while getting comparitively better gas milage and more torque. What I just described to you is the new Mk5 VW gti. Audi won Lemans quite a few times using this fuel strategy and it is the state of the art in gasoline engines. Fuel can be precisely injected during the compression stroke multiple times in one cylce reducing detonation and also being able to achive a super lean cruise , were talking over 19:1 with no surging or bucking at all. And in all actuality its not too hard to adapt to an older car since the high pressure stage is handled by a cam driven fuel pump much the same as a diesel. Suprisingly there are few dirrences from this and a diesel using the new common rail electronic injectors. Hot rodding the guys is a bit different than are standard EFI setups though and tuning them is quite a far ahead of what most normal efi systems are even on an OEM level. I would say that this stuff is definetley not very user friendly and as far as any aftermarket implimitation GOOD LUCK. You would need to reinvent most of the motor to utilize this stuff and as said youd need new heads and piston with dome shapes optimized for DI, then the fuel pump set up which on a v8 the only way I could see it being used is with a totally redesigned front cover and then the water pump in the way ect. SOO by the time we are swapping in those motors regularly dont expect much if any aftermarket support short of a reflash until all the tuners are up to snuff on the stuff. Hope that enlightened some of you to the benefits and funtions of this very cool technology

[Widetracker]

GM now has direct injection on the new v6 that i in the CTS and will soon be in the G8. It is also on the ecotecs on the Saturn Sky Redline and Solstice GXP as previously mentioned (these achieve more mpg than the base models). GM has also gone on record (back in August)that all new v8 designs will have it beyond the ls3 and ls9. They are actually changing the engine series designation to Gen V to account for the change. Diesels have had this technology for a while such as VWs TDI which gets mid to upper 40s in mpg. The high presure fuel system and tuning will be the two complications for motor swapping, but due to the shear volume of motors that will have this technology soon- I don't doubt folks will figure it out relatively quickly.

[Hammered]

There are forums devoted to modifying and tuning Ecotecs so people are already busy at hot rodding DI motors. I've been contemplating what type of car I could put an Ecotec in. Maybe I'll wait until GM comes out with their Gen V, that way I'll have more choices.

I agree that it (converting a conventional motor to DI) won't happen tomorrow, and it certainly won't be the average guy that does it first, but folks were hacking EFI systems back in the late '80s. I knew people burning their own proms for GNs. They swapped code via USPS because the internet wasn't available. I had several burned for my car for the cost of the blank proms.

You already have people routinely welding up chambers in cylinder heads so that they can mill out a more modern shape. But, even if a set of billet heads have to be cut, I believe there is somebody out there that will do it in the next 5 years.

[aggressive male]

Do all the new direct injection motors not have starters?

[matty b]

they all have a starter, if its a hybrid the starter just does a few extra things and live in the transmission bellhousing (the starter is also a generator and a propolsion motor)

Hammered: yeah I know that they are tuning up the direct injection cars Im just sayin that alot of hotrod efi stuff we play with now isnt very prevelant in direct injection motors. You cant really buy bigger injectors or bigger fuel pumps for em other than from a few select companies building packages for specific cars. This will change but I dont see it happening for a while.

[andrewb70]

There are forums devoted to modifying and tuning Ecotecs so people are already busy at hot rodding DI motors. I've been contemplating what type of car I could put an Ecotec in. Maybe I'll wait until GM comes out with their Gen V, that way I'll have more choices.

I agree that it (converting a conventional motor to DI) won't happen tomorrow, and it certainly won't be the average guy that does it first, but folks were hacking EFI systems back in the late '80s. I knew people burning their own proms for GNs. They swapped code via USPS because the internet wasn't available. I had several burned for my car for the cost of the blank proms.

You already have people routinely welding up chambers in cylinder heads so that they can mill out a more modern shape. But, even if a set of billet heads have to be cut, I believe there is somebody out there that will do it in the next 5 years.

No doubt this will eventually happen, but your talking about maybe .01% of the hotrodder popullation. Maybe even less.

Andrew

[aggressive male]

Someone told me some bmw's don't have starters because they just squirt fuel into a cylinder on it's way down on the power stroke and light it off to start.

I know about those starters your talking about. I forgot where it is but I know you can get at least one kit for that but it's expensive.

they all have a starter, if its a hybrid the starter just does a few extra things and live in the transmission bellhousing (the starter is also a generator and a propolsion motor)

Hammered: yeah I know that they are tuning up the direct injection cars Im just sayin that alot of hotrod efi stuff we play with now isnt very prevelant in direct injection motors. You cant really buy bigger injectors or bigger fuel pumps for em other than from a few select companies building packages for specific cars. This will change but I dont see it happening for a while.

[matty b]

the bmw do not have throttle bodies they have a system called VANOS (thats what your buddy is talking about)and it has nothing to do with the starter. If you find a magic way to get a 4 cycle, 2 cycle or rotary to start spinning without the help of a starter lemme know I wanna go into buisness with you. I was speaking about hybrid drivetrain layouts and the way they work. They have a three phase motor that acts as a starter, generator and motor depending on how the current is flowing. And if GM is planning on their gen 5 motor being direct injected Id step up and run it if the capabilities are there to allow me to run it in an older vehicle.

[Hammered]

No doubt this will eventually happen, but your talking about maybe .01% of the hotrodder popullation. Maybe even less.

Andrew

I'm sure the percent of rodders who have converted a carbed motor to EFI is also a fraction of a percent. The reason I love this forum is that a large fraction of that future 0.01% resides here!

[aggressive male]

I'm sure the percent of rodders who have converted a carbed motor to EFI is also a fraction of a percent. The reason I love this forum is that a large fraction of that future 0.01% resides here!

No I would think a lot more than a fraction of a percent. I've done it.

[aggressive male]

I just read about VANOS in the wikipedia. Seems like that is just a mechanically compicated way to adjust valve opening and timing. Seems like that would be something that will be unreliable. But why would you need VANOS to inject gas and light it off to start the motor? Don't you only need direct injection, a way to light off a cylinder when it's not running and enough cylinders that one of them will happen to be in the power stroke?

Btw, I just found 2 links to places that make a "generator, starter, power adder" I think one is valid and the other is from a jackass ripping people off. What do you guys think? http://www.sigmaautomotive.com/elect...trocharger.php

http://www.aurasystems.com/

the bmw do not have throttle bodies they have a system called VANOS (thats what your buddy is talking about)and it has nothing to do with the starter. If you find a magic way to get a 4 cycle, 2 cycle or rotary to start spinning without the help of a starter lemme know I wanna go into buisness with you. I was speaking about hybrid drivetrain layouts and the way they work. They have a three phase motor that acts as a starter, generator and motor depending on how the current is flowing. And if GM is planning on their gen 5 motor being direct injected Id step up and run it if the capabilities are there to allow me to run it in an older vehicle.