E85 Vs. other

[jdub396]

Has anyone done any dyno tests on....lets say a 10.5:1 or 11:1 motor with e85 vs some higher octane fuel maybe 92 or 100? Just wondering how E85 stands up against other racing fuels.

[MonzaRacer]

E85 is basicly 105 octane Ethanol, the 15% gasoline is simply to keep the lushes from buying 5 gallons at local gas station to getthier fix as they are alcoholics.
you have to pay attention to venting techniques(ie closed system,)Rusty tanks SILL start to leak as will rust lines.
You need to upgrade all rubber parts and have a prperly adjusted/tuned carb to run it or properly designed injectors(ie the cheapest units around for E85 on a scratch built EFI are the 30lb/hr ford Motorsport/FRPP injectors) .
Edelbrock is bringing out a E85 carb as is QuickFuel(ie Holley copy) Technologies.
Power is similar (actually the only thing I have seen is the factthat you can say to anyone your car is running cleaner than any XXX model outthier(unless its on E85 too) The reason for using it is you can run higher compression/boost. it should run cooler as the fuel voulme is greater(to the tune on all my tests ) of around 23% to 27%.
Yes you will use more of it but around here in my kneck of the woods its running around $0.25-$0.45 lower than regualr fuel.
Figure this:
300 miles / 20mpg= 15 gallons of gas 15 x $3.559(local price for 94 octane)= $53.39
300 miles / 15mpg= 20 gallons of fuel 20 x 2.759 (local price for E85/87octane is 3.019) =$55.18
See similar price is off set by lower price BUT you get the advantage of 105 octane, helping the environment,helping American farmers and a cleaner engine.
110 octane leaded race fuel is $5.999 a gallon and illegal for highway use 100 octane race unleaded locally for me is ,in the barrel, $3.75 plus $0.18 cents tax, plus barrel fee, plus delivery fee if they deliver.ETC.

I am presently working out programming bugs on a E85 compliant Flex fuel injection system. FlexFI is coming but the sourcing for the fuel sensor is pain right now but coming along as a European company has stepped up with a proposal for a different sensor than the standard VDO/Seimans (one company not real eagr to sell to small companies)fare and it should be able to handle the larger fittings as some newer PT cars are going to need.
you still need tuning time, colder plugs and retimed/tuned engine but power is basicly identicle for high octane vs 105 octane E85 and the E85 when available would be cheaper at the pump and less hassle to source.
you can also check oout national coalition for ethanol web site too ,for E85 stations.

[Shawn MacAnanny]

Great info! I was looking into this myself but decided against it since E85 hasnt hit DE yet.

[bochnak]

From what I have read, you can expect a 5% increase in HP and TQ w/ E85.

[MonzaRacer]

actually the only increase might be from a slight cooling effect at top end but according to every thing we have found its simply a chaep high octane fuel which doesnt leave lots of deposits.
Generally the most increase is from upgradeing the fuel system to run it.
But I do llove E85 and I am working on a FlexFI setup for sale, so far prototype is working very well, we are next going to step up and install a small turbo and see where it goes, the first 12k miles have been favorable.

[DJW32]

Monza,
Great work! What kind of motor are you testing this on? I called edelbrock, they said, "the 1414(carb) is still in product/R&d."

[70bird]

I think I see $5.00 a pound corn on the horizon. LOL
Not really funny.

[MonzaRacer]

OK for the record the byproduct from E85 production is cattle feed so its a trade of fsince 98 percent of the raw corn product is used in some way shape of form.
Now where in the orld does a framer making a living by planting corn hurt us? Nowhere since the left overs is distiller dried grains (ie 26 percent protien cattle feed.).
now if you have access to it its useable, the car will stillrun on gas albeit much richer.
you have to use colder plugs and such and agian you need to think out the fuel venting situation as I am having to.
The FlexFI prototype is on a 421 SBC daily driven with AFR heads and will run cosistant 6.40 in the1/8th in the Camaro. We did take out some compression as it was 11.79 to 1 and we got it down to 11 to 1 with the AFR heads.
His 6 speed lets him run the 373 gears and still pull good times and gets 27 mpg on freeway , yes 27 mpg but he culd get better with gasoline.
I havent had a good source on the fuel sensor yet but still working.
Stockers are almost $500 and junkyards just dont understand its not worth $250 used.

[johnny rockett]

Does not have an octane rating.

[bochnak]

Does not have an octane rating.

http://www.agriculture.state.ia.us/e85q&a.html

What is the range of a flexible fuel ethanol vehicle?
Ethanol has less energy content than gasoline. However, E85 also has a much higher octane (ranging from 100 to 105) than gasoline. FFVs are not optimized to E85, so they experience a 5% to 15% drop in fuel economy. This will vary based on temperature and driving conditions. For comparison purposes, aggressive driving habits can result in a 20% loss and low tire pressure can reduce mileage by 6%.

[Relax428]

Hey guys this might seem like a silly question.

I know to use E85 you can not use rubber or Aluminum in the fuel line due to E85 corrosive nature. My question is what about Aluminum Cylinder heads? Would they start to wear down to or is it a different type of alloy?

[bochnak]

Hey guys this might seem like a silly question.

I know to use E85 you can not use rubber or Aluminum in the fuel line due to E85 corrosive nature. My question is what about Aluminum Cylinder heads? Would they start to wear down to or is it a different type of alloy?

Actually, aluminum compatibility is highly overrated:

https://www.sealsales.com/chemicalcompat2.htm

The above gives the 2 a B for compatibility.

Also, I think the damage comes from E85 absorbing water, so anything holding, distributing, or wet from the fuel has the potential to corrode. Heads do not stay "wet" with fuel.

[johnny rockett]

http://www.agriculture.state.ia.us/e85q&a.html

What is the range of a flexible fuel ethanol vehicle?
Ethanol has less energy content than gasoline. However, E85 also has a much higher octane (ranging from 100 to 105) than gasoline. FFVs are not optimized to E85, so they experience a 5% to 15% drop in fuel economy. This will vary based on temperature and driving conditions. For comparison purposes, aggressive driving habits can result in a 20% loss and low tire pressure can reduce mileage by 6%.

Misnomer: Actually when refering to alcohol fuels the word "octane" does not apply, since octane (in its pure form) is merely the hydrocarbon in gasoline in which a numerical value is assigned.

Octane values are just a guess at antiknock in Alcohol fuels.....aka E85 is rated at 100 on up to 105...........nobody knows for sure.

[MarkM66]

Those concerned about the economics of Ethonal fuel should read pg. 16 of the latest Hot Rod magazine.

[6768toys]

Yes!!! I read that article and that guy has his head so far up his back side he must be working for the big oil companys. I hope someone writes to Hot Rod and lets them know the real facts. We may see corn at $5.00 per bushel not per pound, there's 56 pounds in a bushel. And when did everybody in this country start hating farmers so bad? I was one and what little the goverment ever gave me didn't save my butt.
I'm sorry for my rant and need to cool down , but this subject just burns me.

[MarkM66]

Yes!!! I read that article and that guy has his head so far up his back side he must be working for the big oil companys. I hope someone writes to Hot Rod and lets them know the real facts. We may see corn at $5.00 per bushel not per pound, there's 56 pounds in a bushel. And when did everybody in this country start hating farmers so bad? I was one and what little the goverment ever gave me didn't save my butt.
I'm sorry for my rant and need to cool down , but this subject just burns me.

I just skimmed through it again, and I don't see where it's stated that corn cost $5.00 per pound. Where is that stated?

[70bird]

I just skimmed through it again, and I don't see where it's stated that corn cost $5.00 per pound. Where is that stated?

That was me, and it was just a ridiculous # I threw out there.
I actualy have no idea about the price of corn, or farming in general.
Just trying to make the point that as demand increases, so will price.
Mark

[MarkM66]

Ok, then to 6768toys, please tell us if that article was incorrect, and if so how?

I don't see why you said; "And when did everybody in this country start hating farmers so bad?" Please explain.

[6768toys]

MarkM66, It's another day and yes I've cooled down. Now for my take on some answers for the Hot Rod article.
#1 I will agree with him that we need to drill at home, but when that will happen, good luck. An older lady back home has oil wells capped on her land in ND and has waited all her life to get big money. The Oil co. told her if her great grandkids get any they will be lucky.
#2 E-85 is available and .40 to .60 cents cheaper in the midwest, sorry about the southern states.
#3 Corn has not gone up 350% maybe 100%, but prices for corn and beans have been there before, 20 to 30 years ago.
#4 Yes, there are costs to produce the corn, but it's the same if it is going for food and let me tell you it's very expenseve. My brotherinlaw is saying upwards of $500.00 per acre. That guy made it sound like it's so cheap to make gas, come on now.
#5 The by-products of E-85 doesn't end up in a Toxic landfill!! The biggest share goes for great livestock feed. For those of us who love meat it's great food. I also know a man who has a company that buys all the by-product they can and ships it to Japan. He's getting rich.
#6 He has some numbers that I can't dispute, but I think the Dept. of Agri. has some very good ones.
Maybe I just didn't like how his article puts a bad light on farmers trying to do something to improve their incomes and to support their familys. I tryed very hard for 22 years and my Dad for his whole life, maybe with some of these grain prices I could still be doing what I loved doing.
I quess I see how the media handles farm subjects and hear people in our towns and cities running down all these "RICH" farmers. I don't know where that all comes from. We are just people who love being on the land and try to live off what we have to sell.
Again sorry for my rant.

[MarkM66]

I appreciate your comments. Thanks