Tough Guys

[novanutcase]

My neighbor Paul is a real nice guy that I have known for a few years and we both have a common interest in racing and cars so when he told me about what happen it really upset me!
He was at Buttonwillow a week or so ago for an open track day. He hadn't been out to the track for a while because of his insanely busy schedule and was really looking forward to throwing his '66 Mustang Fastback into some corners especially since he had just gotten a Fays Watts setup for the car. He ran the car and in running it a few of the guys were running REAL close to his car and he actually traded paint with a few of them! When they got back he had asked these same guys to please be careful as he didn't want to damage the car and that he would be more than happy to pull to the side and let them pass. At this point a couple of the guys started mocking him and telling him the usual macho, raceguy B.S. You know! "Second is First Loser!" and all that other bullcrap! It got to a point where he had to start throwing blows with one of the guys that was calling him a ***** and "get off the track if your not going to race", etc!
What's really upsetting is that he got so fed up that he sold the '66 and has lost the penchant he had for racing. Why do these knuckleheads have to ruin it for the rest of us? I know Paul well enough to know that he would never instigate something like this and he used to be DIEHARD about motorsports but he says, at least here in California, he will not race! This guy LOVES racing or at least used to!

John

[LowBuckX]

Must have been some of the Cornercarvers.com guys. What ever happened to racing beeing a gentlemans sport

[gchandler]

I am assuming that they were not racing, but out lapping?

I used to respond in kind, never got more then an adrenaline rush, a headache, and some bruises out of it.

Now when someone demonstrates that they are unrational, it is best to just let them alone. These guys demonstrated that they have nothing to lose, and your friend let them bait him.

I am sorry that he lost his passion for the car, but he could have taken another course.

[6'9"Witha69]

Man, wish I could have backed him up!

Couldn't he have had the boneheads fined or ejected for that kind of crap!

[Damn True]

Was this a RACE, or an HPDE? Even if it was a race most vintage or club racing organizations have very strict no contact rules. His first contact should have been with the stewards.

If this was an HPDE, again his first contact should have been with the stewards but in addition, those guys deserve a serious beat-down and a reminder that there is no such thing as an "Open-Track Championship."

I'd have been standing next to Nick. He would have looked even bigger next to me.


...and LowBuck, you'll find that the folks at CC.com are fully aware of and in support of the differences between an HPDE and an actual W2W race. There are members that represent both sides, and even the racers know that contact during a race is something to be avoided.

[Salt Racer]

I don't know which track event he was with. Some are notorious for having dumb-ass kids and aggressive drivers.

There seems to be a lot of confusion distinguishing racing and open tracking. Both take place on road courses, but they are entirely different. The objective of racing is to cross the finish line first, while open tracking is more about driver education.

Incidents do happen in racing. That's the reality - as I said above, goal is to cross the finish line first and everyone fights to be on the good line and nail the apexes for good launch out of corners. Swapping paint is inevitable. Even then, it should be avoided and you'll have a chat with the officials if you are involved in an incident. Contacts should never happen in open tracking environment.

Regulars at Corner-Carvers.com know the difference between racing, time trials, open tracking, etc. We don't tolerate stupid driver behaviors such as intentionalyl bumping fenders and bumpers, whether racing or HPDE. Call us *******s if you like, but get the fact straight, please. We drive aggressively, but do so in responsible manners.

If he was actually "racing" as stated in the original post, he should step down to time trials or open tracking if he wants to minimize the chance of damaging his car. The chance of incidents happening is much lower.

If he was just doing a track day/HPDE/track event/lapping day or however you like to call it, then he should have just walked away when the offenders started calling names, and reported the incident to the event officials. They have the power to change the behaviors of asshats, or else kick them off the track. You don't.

That said, if he actually had contacts with a few cars, I would say he was partially at fault. You need to watch mirrors constantly, and you need to get out of the way and point them by as soon as someone is coming up from behind. That would have prevented some of the incidents he had. It's quite likely he was holding those guys up for more than a few corners, and they lost their patience.

It's also obvious he was getting passed by quite a few cars. There'll be no chance of contact if everyone was running the same lap time, and if he was passing someone and made contacts, then it's his sloppy driving. This tells me he was driving in a faster group than his skills could handle. He should have run in a lower group where his skills match closer to that of other drivers.


If anyone is actually interested in running on the track, do some research and run with guys who have good reputation. Don't go for the event with lowest price. This usually means more cars on the track.

Leave your ego at home and run in a group (or level) appropriate for your skill level. Lately I have been seeing more and more beginner-level drivers with high-hp cars running in intermediate/advanced groups, only to become rolling chicanes for other drivers.

Don't sign up for a fast group for your first time out (or 2nd/3rd/4th/... time for that matter) just because you have 700hp, big tires, and big brakes. I can gurantee you can't even catch well-driven Miatas unless you have prior experience in competitive karting or autocrossing. The limiting factor will be you, the nut behind the wheel, not your car. Who can weld better - an unskilled 10-year old with a $8000 TIG machine, or a skilled welder with a $300 equipment? The same applies to track driving.

Don't believe me? Watch some of track videos floating around on this site, and note lap times. It's easy to do. Pick a reference point (like a bridge over the track, flag station, etc) and start timing until the car comes around to the same point. Now compare those times to lap records of Spec Miata.

There's no shame in running in a novice group even if you had a 2006 Ferrari F1 car. Everyone has to start somewhere, do it right. Again, leave your fvcking ego at home, then everyone can have fun.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

then ****ers think theyre this guy..

[6'9"Witha69]

then ****ers think theyre this guy..

[Damn True]

I don't know which track event he was with. Some are notorious for having dumb-ass kids and aggressive drivers.

A bunch of smart stuff here.

Again, leave your fvcking ego at home, then everyone can have fun.

All great points Katz. Stuff like this is why I think it is so very important that the mags (the Hot-Rod stuff and the R&T/C&D type as well) clearly illustrate the difference between HPDE's and RACES. We discussed it in detail in another thread, but I really think they owe it to the sport to make sure people know what to expect.

[novanutcase]

Sorry! In my fury to post I used the wrong terminology! I'm sure it wasn't an all out race but HPDE/Open Tracking! I'm not sure if he was signed into a group that was faster than his talents as I wasn't there to see it in person but I know this guy and ego he does not have. He really just wanted to push the car through some corners and see what it could do with the new setup he had on it. Maybe in his zeal to try and push his car he lost focus of the other drivers and I can completely see where they would be a bit perturbed but I really feel that the way they handled it was completely out of line and just was not necessary. I guess my gripe is really with the fact that he has becomed so disillusioned with running a car out here. You are right as far as him having escalated the issue although I'm sure at the time they were just able to hit a nerve with him and, yes, he was at fault for letting them goad him to that level. Maybe this is more a message to everyone when you are at the track to please not be to hasty when someone holds you up for a second. A quick discussion with that person should be all that is needed and if it persists, as Katz and Damn True have said, the stewards should be alerted and let them take care of it!

Thanks for letting me rant!

John

[Damn True]

Sorry! In my fury to post I used the wrong terminology! I'm sure it wasn't an all out race but HPDE/Open Tracking! I'm not sure if he was signed into a group that was faster than his talents as I wasn't there to see it in person but I know this guy and ego he does not have. He really just wanted to push the car through some corners and see what it could do with the new setup he had on it. Maybe in his zeal to try and push his car he lost focus of the other drivers and I can completely see where they would be a bit perturbed but I really feel that the way they handled it was completely out of line and just was not necessary. I guess my gripe is really with the fact that he has becomed so disillusioned with running a car out here. You are right as far as him having escalated the issue although I'm sure at the time they were just able to hit a nerve with him and, yes, he was at fault for letting them goad him to that level. Maybe this is more a message to everyone when you are at the track to please not be to hasty when someone holds you up for a second. A quick discussion with that person should be all that is needed and if it persists, as Katz and Damn True have said, the stewards should be alerted and let them take care of it!

Thanks for letting me rant!

John

No worries. Invite him to PT.com and CC.com. Maybe he just needs to be assured that his experience wasn't and should not be the norm.

[novanutcase]

No worries. Invite him to PT.com and CC.com. Maybe he just needs to be assured that his experience wasn't and should not be the norm.

Good Idea!

What's sad is that he's been to more than a few events out here (He's from England!) in which he had a ball and with the long layoff due to work he was really amped about getting back out there! Maybe the adrenaline that he had in expecting the same got turned into irrational thinking when the incident went down. He has a Cobra that his Dad had bought when he was younger and had given it to Paul and he was so bummed because he felt he couldn't run it anywhere out here! Maybe a good talking to by you guys will get his spirits back up! Thanks for listening to my rant. If not Paul I feel a little better!

John

[Mean 69]

A well run HPDE/Driving School will have a debrief after EVERY driving session, with the lead instructor, and ALL drivers. If one person is acting like an a$$, every other driver will bring it up in the meeting. Further, the instructors will INSIST everyone understands that and HPDE is NOT a race, so if anyone comes back and says "race or get the hell out of here," there's another serious disconnect. And no matter what, there will virtually always be at least one idiot in every session, he'll be the guy that among other things thinks he's the fastest guy out there with his chest all pushed out (I say "he" and not "she" because I have never seen, nor heard of a gal doing this). If the hosts are doing their job, he'll either be remidied before the next run, or kicked out and asked not to come back again. Ever.

I'd be interested in knowing specifically which organization hosted the event, not to black list them, but just as a reference point. As you said, there's probably more to the story, but rubbing paint, and fist throwing wouldn't be tolerated, at all, period in any of the hosts that I have run with. I have $500 that says it wasn't NASA.

Mark

P.S. As Katz stated, don't expect to go out and whip everyone with your 600 HP Pro Touring car with big brakes and 18" wheels, you will very likely get your butt handed to you by someone with far more experience, in a far "slower" car. Safe, and humble are the very best ways to enter this type of event.

[novanutcase]

I'd be interested in knowing specifically which organization hosted the event, not to black list them, but just as a reference point. As you said, there's probably more to the story, but rubbing paint, and fist throwing wouldn't be tolerated, at all, period in any of the hosts that I have run with. I have $500 that says it wasn't NASA.

Mark

I'll ask him although when I bring up the subject he always tells me it's history and he doesn't want to talk about it!

John

[Ronald Winter]

next time I'm in alabama we can going visit them if you like! maybe next month.

[MarkM66]

To bad there are some big ego, a-hole car guys out there. Both in racing, and show cars.. turns me off sometimes too.

It's unfortunate the guy got out of the game, but I can understand why he did it.

[toxicz28]

Why do these knuckleheads have to ruin it for the rest of us?

Why do the rest of us LET these knuckleheads ruin it???

[novanutcase]

next time I'm in alabama we can going visit them if you like! maybe next month.

Sorry! I gotta change that! I'm not in Alabama! I'm in Los Angeles! You know! SoCal!!!!

John

[shortrack]

theres no excuse for the incident and it should be brought to the attention and dealt with by the organisers of the event......But......as stated above anytime you get a bunch of guys together in any kind of a remotely high performance type event your going to get these type of guys so you bettter get used to dealing with them or YOU are going to be missing out......unfourtunatly its the sad truth.

Ive Superbike raced at a national level, I have a Fountain offshore powerboat that I Poker Run and those types are always there.......H ell I used to be track champion at our local slot car track and these guys would show up in complete Dale Earnhardt dress complete with "Goodwrench" race jacket, proper Dale moustache and Gargoyle sunglsses!!!......and i swear this one guy litterally thought he was in the Daytona 500 everytime on the track.....too much!!

With the bikes I would voice my concerns with the head marshall and they were usually already aware of this person and I would be giving them more ammo to go and give this guy a talking too.
Poker Runs I stick with a bunch of guys I know that we all run about the same speed but the big thing its a great organization that doesnt tolerate cutting off and hosing down to gain a simple position.....you may have to switch and find a bunch of guys that have the same idea of fun that you do.......usaually the guys who do that type of chit are locals who dont normally participate and on one occasion a guy got kicked off a Run.....

Your on your own on the trash talking however

[MrQuick]

...this is why I run with the newbies...this reminds me. We need to do another northern California P-T track day. Thunder hill looks good in September.