63 Nova cause Everyone has an F-Body

[63ImportBeater]

63 nova SS, EFI 383. Current suspension is Global West Multi-Leafs in back, and the front is as trick as can be for a lame stock nova suspension(Boxed A-arms, eccentric lock out, stiff springs and shocks, quick steering box, sway bar and discs but still lame nova geometry). Car will have a 6-speed and be a serious road race piece that will still get considerable drive time.
Could someone recommend where i could get a front subframe that encorporates chevy components and no ford junk. I was also planning on a 3 or 4 link in back till i read everyone here saying leafs are good, and I've seen people praising the trailing arm system from HTH. I am very confident in my fabricating skills but not as much in my knowledge of the capabilities of these differant systems. The front/rear clips will be tied together well with a cage and such. What is the best rear suspension for road racing and where might i find a kit for it? Thanks in advance for any help.

[LowBuckX]

you should register at StevesNovasite.com and ask around about the Deurango deuce. a road racing 64 that some members drive at some race in Mexico.. They have the setup and its not very radical.... It should do what you want and more....

[ryans67deuce]

Check out Wayne Due's C4 Corvette front clips for Nova's. I have one on my 67. Could be just waht you're after.

www.waynedue.com

Ryan

[USAZR1]

Not everyone here owns an F-body. Some of us went upscale and own an A-body. :3gears:

[63ImportBeater]

Not everyone here owns an F-body. Some of us went upscale and own an A-body. :3gears:

Good to hear! Nice El Camino.

Thanks to everyone else about front ends but what/who do you recommend for a rear clip?

[Salt Racer]

I have an E-body (Buick Riv)

[Mean 69]

I was also planning on a 3 or 4 link in back till i read everyone here saying leafs are good

Leafs really can be good, but that doesn't mean that a well executed link system isn't better, or that is not worth the trouble. One serious issue with the leafs is the ability to adjust the system for various tracks, in order to alter the spring rate, well, you need to replace the springs. With a coil over setup, changing springs is relatively painless, and setting the ride height/corner weighting is also easy as a result.

In my opinion, the early Nova's are highly desirable to turn into track burners. They are light, and can be made even lighter. One drawback is that there really aren't any serious road race suspension "packages" that you can buy and bolt on, including the variety of front sub's that I have seen. As with the offerings for other cars, they are more "hot rod" than they are road race, and that's being nice. Most of the setups that I have seen are MII derived, which in and of itself isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the spindle and hubs really aren't enough to make me comfortable enough to build a track car around. At least your car is light though, this helps in this area a lot.

If you are really serious about fabricating, and have sufficient tools, you can probably do as well, but most likely far better than what's out there, by building a setup yourself. The learning curve is very steep on the suspension theory though, but there are some very sharp folks here that can give you some good advise and answer some basic questions. Read every book you can on the subject, three times. Be forewarned though, it is a very slippery slope, you will most likely get sucked in like a few of us here that probably don't know when to say "enough!"

Perhaps one question would be, what do you "really" intend to do with the car? Street/open track events, or possibly racing under a sanctioned body? If it is the latter, planning up front is more critical due to the rules.....

Mark

[Salt Racer]

Mark,
MII spindles are surprisingly beefy. Spindle pins and wheel bearings are quite a bit bigger than what's on 1st Gen spindles.

But KPI is really steep (10.5* for OE, 12* for 2" drop) and Hub face is too far away from KP axis especially with aftermarket brake/hubs. Even with +32mm offset rims and super steep KPI, scrub radius is still 2.0" (@ 12" rolling radius). Also it's pretty short in height, so you need longer UCAs for good RC migration (but I guess this doesn't matter if RC lateral location should indeed be left undefined...).

...Perhaps one question would be, what do you "really" intend to do with the car?.....

This is the most important question IMO. If you're REALLY serious about track events and racing, properly-designed link suspension is worth the extra money and effort (and probably rear seat delete to go along) assuming rules permit such modification.

But then again, it could end up as a poor setup if you don't do enough homework in advance, in which case, leafs are much better way to go - Not much floor cutting (if any), rear seats intact, no problem conforming to the rules, and you actually have to try hard to screw up the geometry.

[Mean 69]

(but I guess this doesn't matter if RC lateral location should indeed be left undefined...).

I couldn't find the darned magazine, I really wish I could have read that article. I'd have to say though, based on what you and the others wrote, I am a bit suspicious of this design approach. I'll get my hands on a copy somehow. I think I am going to subscribe too!

As for the other drawbacks of the MII spindles, well, yes that stuff too, in fact, that is even more important. It "feels" like a 2" scrub radius is too much, though I don't have direct experience. Obviously depends on the weight of the car, the intended use, power steering, etc. Here again, when it comes down to it, the "hardest" part of getting the right geometry, economically, is finding the right donor spindle/hub setup.

Spindle pins and wheel bearings are quite a bit bigger than what's on 1st Gen spindles

These leave a LOT to be desired in my opinion too, by the way, but then again, my requirements are probably a bit different than most folks.

Katz, I am not sure I have your e-mail, drop me a PM here or there, and let me know how I can get hold of you.

Mark

[Salt Racer]

Mark, PM will be sent shortly afterwards.

I couldn't find the darned magazine, I really wish I could have read that article. I'd have to say though, based on what you and the others wrote, I am a bit suspicious of this design approach. I'll get my hands on a copy somehow. I think I am going to subscribe too!

Right now, I'm not sure which one to believe. Conventional method obviously worked for me, but if there's more to be gained, I'd like to experiment. Looking at suspension on Formula 1 and CART cars, I don't see much difference in UCA and LCA lengths, which supports (kinda) this new theory. But then again, we're working on totally different platforms.



I just got subscription renewal notice last week. For some reason, the price jumped to $100+!! But the price advertised in the latest issue is still $80 or something...

...It "feels" like a 2" scrub radius is too much, though I don't have direct experience. Obviously depends on the weight of the car, the intended use, power steering, etc....

On smooth street, 2" feels OK with good PS, but I think reducing it to 0.75~1.0" would increase steering stability. My Riv currently has 2.375" or something, and it requires a bit of correction on bumpy road. I don't think there'll be much difference on the tracks, but I suspect there'll be slight difference in grip due to less weight shift (there'll be less rise/fall effect of KPI and caster).

...Here again, when it comes down to it, the "hardest" part of getting the right geometry, economically, is finding the right donor spindle/hub setup....

Couldn't agree more. I'm kicking around the idea of using C5 or S10 4x4 hub cartridge for my Riv, and build knuckles from 4130 plates and some DOM tubes and have them heat treated (I got the idea from seeing knuckles on Sean's Camaro). You can get those hubs for $150~190 each at RockAuto. Both of them have very shallow offset - hub face to the knuckle's machined face is less than 2", so you can move LBJs outboard quite a bit with shallow offset rotors.

[Poopy]

What magazine are you d00ds referring too?

[Salt Racer]

Race Car Engineering. Fine British publication. Very expensive, but worth every penny if you're into theories and engineering behind the modern race car technologies.

[Mean 69]

Looking at suspension on Formula 1 and CART cars, I don't see much difference in UCA and LCA lengths, which supports (kinda) this new theory. But then again, we're working on totally different platforms.

You know, I think you may have hit it right on the head. If the article was directed at open wheel cars, then there is probably more to the story than would be with a typical sedan/full body car. Those cars have completely different design considerations, in fact, the tires are a large part of the suspension compliance (relative terms...). I will have to get the article, but that is a great point that makes me think the guy is not a kook!

Things that make you go "hmmmm....."
M

P.S. Er, uh, sorry for the highjack.

[63ImportBeater]

You guys have all been a lot of help. I do have another question ... and i hope i dont sound like the newbie i am ,but .... could you do me a favor and spare me the abbreviations? I understand LCA = lower control arm and UCA = etc... but i figured that from your posts. What is KPI ,LBJ, Riv, etc... I am pretty knowledgable with the terms from my mechanical engineering classes and reading chassis books, but the abbreviations are leaving me ...... ummm .... a bit confused. I think MII means mustang 2 which leads me to mention the constant mission of keeping ford off of my Chevy unless absolutely impossible. I hope you can all understand. Thanks again! Your info is invaluable.

[Salt Racer]

You know, I think you may have hit it right on the head. If the article was directed at open wheel cars, then there is probably more to the story than would be with a typical sedan/full body car. Those cars have completely different design considerations, in fact, the tires are a large part of the suspension compliance (relative terms...). I will have to get the article, but that is a great point that makes me think the guy is not a kook!

Things that make you go "hmmmm....."
M

P.S. Er, uh, sorry for the highjack.

Yeah, now that I think about it, this talk originally started out from someone asking him about UCA/LCA angles on one of F1 cars, which appeared to have IC on the outside of the vehicle (reversed camber curve...) This particular issue is still a mystery.


Glossary:

MII - Mustang II
LBJ - Lower ball joint
KPI - King pin inclination
RC - Roll center
IC - Instant center
Riv - Buick Riviera

[63ImportBeater]

Thanks for the dictionary salt racer. Now i feel like a veteran.

[Salt Racer]

Actually, you've just seen a tip of iceberg.

Just when you thought you've learned enough, you need to take three steps backwards and be a humble listener. Not that I'm saying you are being ****y or anything, but I just wanted to point that out.

It's hard to do sometime, but it's the only way you can gain really valuable knowledge. Ask Dennis. He has gained tremendous amount of understanding of suspension kinematics over the last several months.

[63ImportBeater]

Don't sweat it ... i am constantly trying to absorb more knowledge about suspensions and what makes them work. Consider me THE SPONGE. Whatever I know i am certain I can learn new stuff and more about what i do think i know.

By the way salt racer, sweet Riviera. Its pretty cool to see someone racing a a car like that. While i totally respect the f-body guys, its bitchin to see someone racing something that wasnt originally intended for racing.

[Salt Racer]

Don't sweat it ... i am constantly trying to absorb more knowledge about suspensions and what makes them work. Consider me THE SPONGE. Whatever I know i am certain I can learn new stuff and more about what i do think i know...

Excellent! Good to see guys like you here. There are bunch of very sharp folks here (Mean 69, Norm Peterson, Chicane67, David Pozzi, etc), so stick around!

...By the way salt racer, sweet Riviera. Its pretty cool to see someone racing a a car like that. While i totally respect the f-body guys, its bitchin to see someone racing something that wasnt originally intended for racing.

Thanks. I agree with ya. I too like F-bodies, but someone's gotta drive something different.

[Marcus SC&C]

It`s a lot of fun (for some of us) to talk about all the fine points of suspension design. However it`s not a bad idea to step back from time to time and look at just how freakin terrible some of ours stock cars suspensions are and realize that even a less than perfect system may be a GIGANTIC improvement. Don`t get me wrong, I`m all for making things *perfect* but my customer`s are almost never willing to pay for it because it`s VERY EXPENSIVE and TIME CONSUMING to make things *perfect* or even close to it. Likewise folks often lose interest before they get their perfect projects done or waste literally years of not driving their cars for that last 5%. Just food for thought. For example,the stock Chevy II suspension and steering design must have been drawn up by little Billy on "bring your kid to work day" or something. No offense just an observation. Replacing the stock subframe with for example a Heidts MM2 subframe is literally a quantum leap ahead. The difference in handling, performance and drivability is unbelievable despite it`s sortcomings. I wouldn`t worry too much about using Ford parts as many MM2s have not a single Ford part in them. They`re aftermarket pure and simple. Yes, the KPI is less than ideal and the spindles are on the short side but kits incorperating tubular arms usually use Chrysler BJs with taller studs that improve the RC height and camber curves nicely. It`s still not GREAT,but it`s pretty good. The bumpsteer is pretty good too,again not perfect but pretty good. I was pleasantly suprised the first time I measued a Heidts front end and plugged the #s into Suspension Analyzer. After installation gauges verified the #s as very decent. The thing is that it`s a 120% improvement over the original configuration (even with mods) and it would give you a good solid foundation for future mods. Simple mods or options like big brakes and locking the UCA cross shafts at their full inboard position (to optimize UCA length) and using adj. tubular UCAs for alignment would make it even better pretty easily. Unless you just want to build your own front end for the experience and satisfaction of doing it. That`s cool ,it`s just a LOT more work. ;) Marcus