System Not charging!! Help!

[Magntik]

hey guys,
Here's my new problem, this past weekend I got the motor and trans put back in my '67 Bird.
Car ran great in the fall, but the oil pan was leaking and so was the rear main. So I pulled it to upgrade to a better pan and BOP's new rear main seal. While it was out I had some parts powder coated.
So now it's back in and I thought running great.
I drove it to work then the wife drove it, I go to pick it up at her place of work and it won't start. Tried to start once, then nothing, no clicks, nothing.
So I have it towed home.
The wife has the keys, so while I wait for her to get home I put my multi meter on the battery and the alternator terminal, both over 12 volts.
Keep in mind I do nothing else.
She gets home with keys and for the he11 it I try to start it.
It starts.
So now I'm confused.
I put the meter back on it and have less than 11 volt and dropping.
When it shows around 9.5 volts I decide I better kill it.
Try to turn the key, nothing.


So I take the alternator to O'reilys and not only do they about blow it up and their crappy machine, but he tells me it's fine! Putting out close to 15 volts. Says it's possible thatit's not being "told" to charge.
What's that mean? How do I tell it to charge?



Anyone have any ideas where I should go from here?
Starter seems to kick it over fine. Newer wiring harness and a M&H Alternator conversion kit to an internally regulated unit.

I am stumped.
May have to make some calls tomorrow.

Thanks in advance.

[gmachinz]

I am not familiar with the M&H conversion, (I do my own) but when we switch to an internally regulated alternator, we loop the blue and brown wires together from the regulator harness and cap off the white and orange leads. This essentially bypasses the external regulator and allows the use of a newer style of alternator. As for your non-start issue, check the wires at the starter for possible grounding against the exhaust-especially if you are running headers. It's possible the starting is grounding against a runner when you try to start it-also,this could kill the car while driving as well. It sounds more like a grounding issue. The deal the counter guy was inadequately telling you about the alternator needing to "see" something in order to charge is the +12v ignition on lead for the alternator but that is a non-issue with your M&H conversion harness.

[whytry]

internally regulated alternator, we loop the blue and brown wires together from the regulator harness and cap off the white and orange leads. This essentially bypasses the external regulator and allows the use of a newer style of alternator.

So if all someone did was get a 1 wire alt, is this something you would recommend doing whenever converting to a 1 wire? Also on the starter there is a yellow wire running to the starter that I am not using, should I connect to something?

[6'9"Witha69]

What type of alternator are you running?

Don't use 1 wire alternators. My 110 amp 1 wire was useless compared to my 94 amp 3 wire.

[whytry]

I am running the 110 amp Summit chrome 1 wire setup.

Nevermind on the yellow wire, I forgot when I put the HEI in I don't use it.

[gmachinz]

Brad, the reason we don't use the 1-wire alternators is because there is no real need for them-they are more of a pain than they are worth imo. They are supposed to give you a set amount of amperage@ idle and once the RPM speed of the alternator is raised to who knows what rate (it varies by manufacturer) it will give the remaining amperage load-whether there is a demand for it or not. Standard 3-wires are designed with a remote voltage sensing circuit which is able to "read" electrical demands by voltage drop every time you use an accessory-it constantly varies the amount to satisfy the load demand so as not so drag down performance. There are better ways for wiring an older vehicle to better take advantage of this like the newer cars do and that is where we focus our installs. We wire based on how newer cars are wired with respect to remote voltage sensing in mind and the use of +12v junctions from the alternator directly. Simply put, I like to make it easy for the charging system to keep up with electrical demnds and I wire accordingly. I see no need for a 1-wire when a 3-wire is a much more efficient way of managing your charging system. 1-wires to me represent a dummied down charging system that is not very practical in a real world driven car or truck..imo. I can modify any stock charging system to better meet the needs of the car and from that perspective, I have no use for the 1-wire design when it usually poses more obstacles than it eliminates.

[whytry]

Thanks Jabin, I have always wondered why sometimes if my car sits for over 2 weeks the battery is almost dead and won't start.... Plus had questions regarding how the alternator is supposed to send power to the rest of the car if there is only the 1 wire going back to the starter.... When I had the 1st motor installed at a shop in San Jose they changed it to a 1 wire and said it cleaned up the engine compartment...

Is there a way to switch back and convert to a 3 wire?

[6'9"Witha69]

(snip)When I had the 1st motor installed at a shop in San Jose they changed it to a 1 wire and said it cleaned up the engine compartment...

Is there a way to switch back and convert to a 3 wire?

That is the problem, form over function, when really all you are removing is 2 wires which routed with the remaining wire. Cleaned up? not really.

Yes you can go back. Depending on your needs you can go SI or CS model alternators. I run a 12SI (same model as your 1 wire is probably built on, I know my old one was) and wired it using MAD part # ALT-1. Check out his site as he has kits for various electrical jobs and varying types of Alternator swaps. I did a full change of my charging system and modified the factory harness using a few of the kits put together. Mark is the owner and the man who will answer the phone. He will take the time to practically impart all his knowledge on you no matter how much you are going to buy. He is essentially the Yoda of electrical systems IMHO.

www.madelectrical.com
559-539-7128

[whytry]

I checked out his site from doing a search on this topic, he has great feedback. I will give him a call

[gmachinz]

Yes, Mark is a good guy and he'll do whatever he can to get you the right info/parts-I have dealt with him too and I can vouch for him!

[Magntik]

So I have had my alternator checked out, installed a new starter, swaped conversion kits from between my Firebird and my 70 C-10, checked ground straps, cleaned terminals at the starter and double checked the wiring and coil wiring, looked over the fuse panel, and still not getting the Firebird to charge the battery.
So next questions are these:

1. Is there a fusible link or fuse of some type along the wire harness I could have burnt? I can't "see" one on my wiring diagrahms.

2. I want to check the voltage at the starter, what should I see at the 2 smaller terminals?
One is marked with an "S" and the other with an "R", I think.
And at what point shold these readings be present?

3. If I shorted out the wiring one way or another, could I have damaged my ignition switch, but still have it start the car? Seems to work fine in the on and accessory positions.

Thanks.

[whytry]

I know of the fusible link right before the horn relay, but if you burnt that link I thought nothing would work, lights, acc, etc. And they work right?

I thought the starter would only show 12 volts at the larger cable until the ignition switch is turned on the "S" terminal would show voltage (S = solenoid).

[Magntik]

I know of the fusible link right before the horn relay, but if you burnt that link I thought nothing would work, lights, acc, etc. And they work right?

I thought the starter would only show 12 volts at the larger cable until the ignition switch is turned on the "S" terminal would show voltage (S = solenoid).

I think that's ok, I show voltage at the horn relay. And everything seems to "work" at least untill the battery is very low.
I was thinking either at the starter end or the ignition switch.
No voltage other then when cranking or running at the little wires?

I am going to try to Call M & H tech again today and ask them.

[6'9"Witha69]

Get the car running. Check voltage at the battery, Alternator, Horn relay and fuse panel. If they are all consistent then there is a draw somewhere. In your first post you stated that voltage was fine w/o the keys. When you checked again and noticed the draw, were the keys on at all (IGN, ACC)? This would have to ba a major short to drain the battery right before your eyes, or your battery has gone bad. Have it load tested. What type of Battery is it? I assume you still have the factory wiring other than some battery type conversion. Did you mention what type of alternator you were running?

[Magntik]

Get the car running. Check voltage at the battery, Alternator, Horn relay and fuse panel. If they are all consistent then there is a draw somewhere. In your first post you stated that voltage was fine w/o the keys. When you checked again and noticed the draw, were the keys on at all (IGN, ACC)? This would have to ba a major short to drain the battery right before your eyes, or your battery has gone bad. Have it load tested. What type of Battery is it? I assume you still have the factory wiring other than some battery type conversion. Did you mention what type of alternator you were running?

With the car off it's around 12 volts, with it running it drops to 11.6 or so and drops from there.

I have a newer Interstate battery. The alternator is a CI or CS type GM internally regulated.
The conversion kit consists of a rubber block the plugs into the harness in place of the regulaor, I assume it's a jumper of sorts and a pigtail that connects to the square alternator plug and has the new flat style plug the new alternator requires.



If I had a major short, wouldn't I still see the alternator reading showing it was "charging" but at the battery showing it losing?

So I should just turn the key over and check without it running?
I don't go out to a dead battery in the "morning", so I don't think it's has a draw on it, with the key off.

Ok, just went out and checked with the key off, and it has 12.16 volts at the battery.
Turned the key to the on position w/o cranking it and voltage dropped to 11.99 at the battery.

[paul67]

check the grounds you might need more, frame to engine, frame to battery, battery to engine. Use mig welding ground wire if you can.

[gmachinz]

Your battery is a little dis-charged by what you've described. Once you have the car started, what voltage reading do you get at the alternator charge post? You should see between 13.5-14.6 and with the key off you should see the same as the battery...12.45 ideally. There is a fusible link that connects with your main starter cable at the starter and that runs from your alt. charge post to your horn relay but the starter wire (10 gauge, red) ties in with a fusible link at the starter. Check voltage at all three points-you may have a partially fried link that's dropping voltage at the starter. There is a soldered crimp juntion inside your factory wire loom just off the firewall on the pass. side that serves as the main +12v junction for everything under the hood.

[Magntik]

FIXED IT!!!!!!!

In my first posted I mentioned that I powder coated engine parts,
well one of them was the big bracket that both the power steering pump and the alternator bolt to.

Little did I realize that the alternator grounds the case to the engine through that bracket, and damn does powder coat insulate well!!!!

Ended up taking the pump and alt. off the bracket unbolting it from the engine and grinding away some of the good looking powder coat.

Oh well all is good now, thanks for the input.
And keep this in mind when the urge to powder coat takes hold.

[whytry]

good job man, always good when you get a problem fixed, especially one having to do with charging!!!

[6'9"Witha69]

There is a soldered crimp juntion inside your factory wire loom just off the firewall on the pass. side that serves as the main +12v junction for everything under the hood.

Correction for posterity, it is on the driver's side.