Chevy Rumble C5 article????

[kracker]

There was a light blue 67 on power tour this year, in fact some one posted a small pic of it on the old site, it has logged over 5000 mile will be in a major mag soon and guesse what it has one of the Wd C-5, yea thats right the one that doestn work.
We ALL would love to a see the BIG shoot out! I know I would, but it wont happen,
its bad for biz. Just like you cant believe everything you read we all know that.
I just think Ed maybe should of had a little respect for a good person in the biz and just picked his words better.

[Edward Bednar]

I think the shootout can still happen and would be a good idea. This is like the Ford vs. Chevy vs. Mopar stuff I grew up with. It's actually good fun and makes everyone better. Our frame may not stand up to others but if it doesn't I want to know why and I want to figure out how to make it better. The cam companies, the head companies, the intake companies all have to stand up to critical evaluation. Why not the suspension mods. There are definitely enough things we can measure. I mentioned my father was with R&D at GM. There were times he'd mentioned he was heading out to the proving grounds not to evaluate G.M.'s product but Ford, Chysler and others. They tore their competitors cars down to see what they were up to. They all do it. My father mentioned to me he felt Chysler engineers often had it over everyone else. Tough thing to admit when you work for the competitor but he was being honest with himself. Trying to motivate himself and his team to be better, more creative.Sometimes this is more a sign of corporate culture and what the engineers were allowed to do.The point is we all learn from one another.This is all said so you understand that I did choose my words carefully. I was explaining that this was our experience with this particular version of one of his frames. This is what we chose to do about it. I have alot of respect for Wayne. Building any chassis is no small undertaking. I've seen some pics of some other frames he's done with the C5 that have the rack in the stock location with the motor being pushed back well into the firewall. This maintains more of the original geometry which is near ideal. Read Adams texts on suspension design. The G.M. engineers almost followed it to a T.This may be one of his versions on the road.. But this requires major firewall and trans tunnel modifications. Not everyone has the means or desires to pursue this extensive an undertaking. We designed our frame to avoid this and bolt up hopefully in a weekend with a small block or LS1. The big block version requires some firewall and trans tunnel work, not too extensive, and some oil pan mods. We have a drop version of the frame but which also requires extensive mods.We want a little of something for everyone.We wanted adjustability he didn't offer as well.Again nothing new. I hope most everyone understands most suspension technology goes back in this particular arena for over 50 yrs. Alot of Adam's work probably dates back 30 yrs.There's not much that hasn't already been tried and worked out by some extremely bright people. We just try to apply what they found to work into our package. We are proud of it.We do want to see it thashed on the road and I do want to hear what people think could be better. I also want to see others do the same.
In answer to the other refernce about steering arms.The steering arms have to be specfic to all major variables in a frame design.You can't push the rack back without building a new arm. You can't change instant center without building a new arm at least in our experience.A hi-performance frame is a very twitchy thing. Change one thing and everything else can go to hell in a hand basket. That's why Sundays are so much fun in Nascar. The littlest things can make all the difference in the world. Ed

[TitoJones]

Ed-

Just wanted to welcome you to the board. It is never fun defending your products or rep, and we get very few manufacturers who are willing to stick it out.
I think it is nice to have competition, and this is coming from a Wayne Due Whore. I'd love to see all the suspension makers go head to head to see which frame is the ultimate-
DS&E's new frame
Wayne Due C4/C5
21st C5
Chassisworks Mustang II
Martz Road race
I think we should have a tire requirement to the cars in the shootout of no more than a 275 up front with a 335 max out back.
Good luck with the venture.
Tyler

[BRIAN]

Ed Good luck in selling your product. I can't understand the bashing unless it comes from WD's shop themselves. If you connect the mtg points on a stock Camaro frame how different do you want it to wind up? I wouldn't even apologize if you did buy his frame, you were simply sizing up the market and making educated changes to a product that you saw shortcomings in. Every other post on this site is somebody trying to get measurements or demensions of a part so they can fabricate their own so why is everybody on the attack. If they are WD fans great stick to his product. If Ed is wrong in his changes and his product is poorly constructed the market will let him know. I am impressed that he is taking the criticism and actually saying that he is willing to make further improvements. There are tons of post saying what if I could buy something with this or that type of mod. Here you have a MFG with an opened mind listening to you. Hey let him know what the market wants he sounds ready to deliver. WD fans stick with your product as it is very good and what makes you happy but others use this as an open opurtunity.
The only way a shootout would work would be one car with the frames swapped out leaving everything else equal.

[Cdog]

I think the shootout can still happen and would be a good idea. This is like the Ford vs. Chevy vs. Mopar stuff I grew up with. It's actually good fun and makes everyone better. Our frame may not stand up to others but if it doesn't I want to know why and I want to figure out how to make it better. The cam companies, the head companies, the intake companies all have to stand up to critical evaluation. Why not the suspension mods. There are definitely enough things we can measure. I mentioned my father was with R&D at GM. There were times he'd mentioned he was heading out to the proving grounds not to evaluate G.M.'s product but Ford, Chysler and others. They tore their competitors cars down to see what they were up to. They all do it. My father mentioned to me he felt Chysler engineers often had it over everyone else. Tough thing to admit when you work for the competitor but he was being honest with himself. Trying to motivate himself and his team to be better, more creative.Sometimes this is more a sign of corporate culture and what the engineers were allowed to do.The point is we all learn from one another.This is all said so you understand that I did choose my words carefully. I was explaining that this was our experience with this particular version of one of his frames. This is what we chose to do about it. I have alot of respect for Wayne. Building any chassis is no small undertaking. I've seen some pics of some other frames he's done with the C5 that have the rack in the stock location with the motor being pushed back well into the firewall. This maintains more of the original geometry which is near ideal. Read Adams texts on suspension design. The G.M. engineers almost followed it to a T.This may be one of his versions on the road.. But this requires major firewall and trans tunnel modifications. Not everyone has the means or desires to pursue this extensive an undertaking. We designed our frame to avoid this and bolt up hopefully in a weekend with a small block or LS1. The big block version requires some firewall and trans tunnel work, not too extensive, and some oil pan mods. We have a drop version of the frame but which also requires extensive mods.We want a little of something for everyone.We wanted adjustability he didn't offer as well.Again nothing new. I hope most everyone understands most suspension technology goes back in this particular arena for over 50 yrs. Alot of Adam's work probably dates back 30 yrs.There's not much that hasn't already been tried and worked out by some extremely bright people. We just try to apply what they found to work into our package. We are proud of it.We do want to see it thashed on the road and I do want to hear what people think could be better. I also want to see others do the same.
In answer to the other refernce about steering arms.The steering arms have to be specfic to all major variables in a frame design.You can't push the rack back without building a new arm. You can't change instant center without building a new arm at least in our experience.A hi-performance frame is a very twitchy thing. Change one thing and everything else can go to hell in a hand basket. That's why Sundays are so much fun in Nascar. The littlest things can make all the difference in the world. Ed

Hey Ed. I'll donate my car to use as your beta tester. It's all ready to go with new sheet metal and all new trunk pan ( not installed yet). You can keep it as long as you need it to prove your suspension.

[MrQuick]

Thanks for the profesionalism Ed, its a welcome trait. Katz are you mad?
Now the attitude.
Its just some of us feel Wayne is one of us and they find your competition threatning. But we must realize this is good for business believe it or not. It may open up a flood gate for the aftermarket. Now the east coast can have C5 suspensions. I will still support Wayne he's closer but will still listen to what Ed has to say.I mean hell theres a couple hundred Camaros on the road,I think we can all get along.

[Salt Racer]

No Vince, I'm not mad. I just got irritated a little.

I've been sent to Lateral-G's thread about 21st subframe by one of members here before. If you haven't seen the thread, go there and read Ed's posts. How often do you see a guy from manufacturer takes a time and explains their design philosophies, why their stuff is designed the way they are, etc. using proper technical terms with absolutely no BS advertising crap mixed? That's professionalism and an indication of their great customer service, and I'm pretty damn sure they'll soon have their own faithful followers.

And here are those new guys bashing on their products solely based on the aesthetic values. They've already made their decisions to go with WD's subframe, so why did they even bother starting this thread? Either they weren't sure if they've made the right decision (which isn't likely based on their posts), or just to bad mouth what they think is inferior product.

Judging products based on looks and craftsmanship is fine if this was Show-Touring.com (that's kinda oxymoron, isn't it?). But even then, talking down on new products that none of them have any first-hand experience with, let alone starting a thread just to bad mouth, is totally uncalled for.

If you don't like something new on market, that's fine. Just keep your mouth shut if you have nothing positive to say.

Well, maybe I am mad a little.

Wayne,
Thanks for chiming in. Good to see you here. Come visit us sometime.

[trayb]

Man, All this bickering about C-5 setups. Does it really matter if you go with a WD's or 21st's subframe? I have opted to get mines custom built by Neil Lea of Rods and Restos in Centre, Alabama. I have know Neil for a while and approve of his work. There is not a car that comes out of his shop that is not right. Even though he builds $300K rods, he is willing to do my C-5 subframe. Just in case you want to see some refs check out this link:

http://chevyhiperformance.com/featur...ty/index1.html

If you got any questions, call him at 256-927-2199 and tell him that Tray sent you about the C-5 Subframe.