Silver State Classic-MOPAR

[Chicane 73]

I'm hoping this is the right place to find out if there has been discussion on preparing a car for this event. I will be in a novice class. I'm sure there will be lots of restrictions,etc., but I am concerned about whether or not I will need a roll cage.

At present I am putting together a '70 Challenger pro touring car. Independant rear suspension w/ coilovers. Complete new 16 ga. frame in the rear,sub frame connected to Independant front suspension w/coilovers,rack and pinion steering,no torsion bars. Hope to have room for 9" rubber without mini tub.

The engine is a modified 440 w/ 4 speed,a little of the old with the new. The body is mildly customized with virtually no chrome,fuel cell, custom exhaust. I want to drive this little beast. Should be finished in 1 year,providing everything works out the way I hope it will.

The price and availability of Mopar stuff is nuts. I suppose with the price of these cars going through the roof,it's probably not going to get any easier for people who just want to own and drive one of these cars. I have been fortunate in finding most of everything I need.......for a price. Anyway it's nice to be back,hope someone remembers a thread on this or has firsthand knowledge of what I can expect at Siver State.

[96Z28SS]

This one is for sale in Oregon right now. You might want to talk to the owner about it. He claims it was built for the same event.

more info on the car here:
http://www.memorylaneclassiccars.com/thumbs.html

[Steve Chryssos]

Nice!

[Neil B]

I have run both the Silver State Classic and the Pony Express in a 5.0 Mustang. With the car in near-stock condition, we were tech-limited to the 110 mph class at the Silver State. We put a cage in the car and ran the 135 mph class at the Pony Express. I recommend getting a rule book and building the car to the required safety specs. There will be no leniency on safety tech at these events.

[jeff s]

Add harnesses and go 150

[dqhemi]

I used to run many of the open road races - Silver State, Pony Express, Gamblers Run, Nevada Open Road Challenge and Big Bend.

I ran it with a 205 MPH 97 Cobra in the Unlimited Division.

If you look and see what we do, it's very, very, likely we'll put together a 200+ MPH classic Mopar for the open road races. Basic plans are alaready being put together.

Not sure what class or target speeds you are looking to run. If you're looking to go really fast, you want a close ratio 5 or 6 speed and you'll have to address the aerodynamics of the Challenger. You may want to explore our suspensions.

If you have serious questions, feel free to call me directly. Building one of these that'll really run up top you need to address everything as a total package. I can fill you in on lots of things you'll need to address. I used to have a website up when I was racing and it had a number of tech articles relating to running that fast reliably (and safely).

If someone can host video I have in car and drive-by footage from those races with the car running over 200 MPH.

Here's my Unlimited Division Cobra before one of the races:



John Buscema
XV Motorsports
www.xvmotorsports.com

[70RT/SE]

I . If you're looking to go really fast, you want a close ratio 5 or 6 speed and you'll have to address the aerodynamics of the Challenger. You may want to explore our suspensions.


John Buscema
XV Motorsports
www.xvmotorsports.com

Just wondering what type of aero changes you would do on a Challenger? I always wondered how a car like Big Red went so fast with basically a stock body.

[jeff s]

you'll need a chin spoiler and rear decklid one.

A 600+ CID engine making 1000hp.

[dqhemi]

Just wondering what type of aero changes you would do on a Challenger? I always wondered how a car like Big Red went so fast with basically a stock body.

Air dam and either a deck-lid spoiler or wing.

The wing on my Mustang was modeled based upon some wind tunnel data I wa able to get my hands on. Models were run to calculate the amount of downforce and drag at 200 MPH (and above). Many wing profiles were evaluated, as well as size and angle of attack.

A wing has less drag than a decklid spoiler for a give amount of downforce, so it is the better way to go, but harder/more complicated. Hardest part is getting any specs - no one ever has that info, so you have to go and make one.

With enough horsepower you can hit the speeds, but the other part of the equation is optimizing aerodynamics. We did a combination of both with lots of time spent on the aero. For example, rough calculations told me I was using about 25 HP (on each side) to run my side view mirrors at 200 MPH. So I could have added 50 HP and kept them or just eliminate them.

HP requirements go up geometrically, so it's generally better (and safer) to make gains reducing drag and optimizing aerodynamics, rather than relying on ever increasing amounts of horsepower.

For what I was doing, the goal was to minimize drag and eliminate lift or create just a little downforce. If you create lots of downforce it also creates lots of drag and increases HP requirements and could potentially create tire issues. For these races you won't get the benefit you would on a typical fast road race circuit where all the extra grip is more beneficial than the cost in drag.

A chin spoiler wouldn't be on my list for real high speeds. It will definitely eliminate lift but create lots of drag. A well designed air dam will work much better.

John Buscema
XV Motorsports
www.xvmotorsports.com

[70RT/SE]

Thank you for the explaination. I can see the the different aproaches between your Mustang and Big Red. Big Red uses a chin spoiler and deck lid spoiler, the Mustang an air dam and wing.
I always wanted to try the Silver State with my Challenger...some day maybe.

Can't wait to see a classic Mopar open road racer....how about a Superbird or Daytona clone. Maybe you could do one of those 71 Dayclona's as open road racer. That would be kind of cool with all your suspension components.

Good Luck in your endeavors.

[Chicane 73]

Thanks for all of your input. I appreciate what you have accomplished DQHEMI. My first attempt as a novice will be to familiarize myself with this car. I want it low,and possibly some ground effects will help prevent lift. What tires do you use?

I have driven Porsches most of my life,some at over 150 with no tail or chin spoiler. They feel very stable at speed. I presently have a 911SC with a turbo tail and no chin spoiler,just lowered a lot and it is very stable also. The aerodynamics of their body design helps I'm sure.

[dqhemi]

Thanks for all of your input. I appreciate what you have accomplished DQHEMI. My first attempt as a novice will be to familiarize myself with this car. I want it low,and possibly some ground effects will help prevent lift. What tires do you use?

I have driven Porsches most of my life,some at over 150 with no tail or chin spoiler. They feel very stable at speed. I presently have a 911SC with a turbo tail and no chin spoiler,just lowered a lot and it is very stable also. The aerodynamics of their body design helps I'm sure.

If you've driven modern Porsches then the aero is already done for you up to the speeds you've gone. When I was racing my Mustang at 150 it felt the same as it did at 100. However, when it got up to 185, you could feel the car getting light in the front end. That's when we started making changes to the aero.

If you're looking at running a 70-74 Challenger in the novice classes, say Touring, your tech speed (the top speed you can run without getting disqualified) is 124. I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about aero, but rather suspension, brakes, wheels and tires. At those speeds you can get a handle on how the car runs.

These cars will suffer primarily from front end lift (and massive drag) because of the design of the grill/front end. The front will need more help than the rear in terms of aerodynamics. I would probably run the car and see how bad it is to begin with. Lowering the car will help reduce drag as it will reduce the frontal area.

In terms of stability, suspension and wheels tires will be the most important. For wheels If you have a choice forged will be better than cast. Cast wheels shatter in impacts, forged ones bend. In a bad situation, the likelihood of retaining control of the car is better with the forged wheels. If you go cast, get good quality.

At those speeds you can get away with plain old Z rated tires. However, I'd be looking to run either W or Y, especially if you plan on running faster later on. Y's are the highest public rating at 186 MPH.

On tires I always had good luck with Michelin - in the ned that was all I would run on. I know of very few failures of the Michelins, where other brands had more regular issues and some were known to be troublesome if they weren't heat cycled properly. At the lower speed class its very unlikely you'll have any issue with tires as long as they are rated for your speed and load.

Having said that, almost all the bad accidents/injuries/deaths were due to tire failures, so tires are probably the single most important piece on the car - I always viewed them as part of my safety equipment and went out of my way to find what was the best to run.

I would definitely recommend running at least 17" wheels/tires for a variety of reasons.

John Buscema
XV Motorsports
www.xvmotorsports.com