AFX vs CW

[DarkoNova]

Hey guys, I've got a couple questions on the AFX spindles and (if anyone knows?) the Chassisworks front clip.

Ever since I got my car I planned on getting a Chassisworks front clip. Then I joined this site and saw the AFX spindle. I'm trying to decide if I really need to spend 6 grand or if I could get away with about $3500 and have identical results. What I need to know is, what's the most camber and caster I could run with the AFX spindles? And does anybody know what the most camber and caster would be for a CW clip?

A better question would probably be what is the most you would want to run on the street? It's my daily driver, but I want it to handle like it's on rails. My friend has an RSX and he says if I want a car that handles, I should buy an import. I want to prove him wrong.



Matt

[Marcus SC&C]

That`s a tough question because there`s no simple answer. It`s an apples vs. oranges thing. The AFX tall spindles do an absolutely remarkable job of transforming the original subframe into a real performance piece (not to mention adding modern performance brakes!). Possible caster/camber settings depend on what upper arms you use with them. With our adj. arms the sky`s the limit. It`s not about absolutes though,alignment`s not like that. You don`t want the max. of anything you want what`s just right for your car and your driving style. The AFX spindles are THE best thing you can do for a stock subframe but you still have to put the rest of the package together,springs,shocks,coilovers etc. to make a valid comparison. Of course that`s what guys like Tyler and I are here for.
The ChassisWorks subframe on the other hand is an integrated package,soup to nuts,rad support to solid subframe bushings (with optional integrated subframe connectors and chassis X brace). If you really want a rack with proper geometry this is one of the few ways to get it. None of the bolt in kits for stock subframes do half as good a job. If you`re doing a showcar the super smooth rails,optional polished stainless tubular arms etc. are hard to beat. The geometry is very good. Alston doesn`t release particulars and I`m not at liberty to say either but it has good negative camber gain,a stable roll center and virtually no bumpsteer at all. Chris knows what he`s doing and certainly didn`t make any compromises on the geometry. The range of adjustment is large enough to set it up for mild street use or the track. The Varishock adj. coilovers are an integral part of the package and work really well. My only issue with the whole thing is that I have a preference for big Baer brakes on street cars and Alston only offers their StreetMachine subframe with rather small Wilwoods. We have that covered now.
We have a new 13" GT Baer system for the CW subframes. A bunch of CW stuff along with the new Baers will be on our site very shortly (as soon as our web guy gets it done).
There`s no short answer,both will perform great. The AFX setup lets you put the package together gradually and update and evolve it as you see fit. The Alston CW subframe you have to jump in all at once but then you`re done. Either way your buddy with the RSX is gonna be in for a suprise! Mark SC&C

[DarkoNova]

Thanks Mark.

That's what I was thinking. If I did save up and get the CW clip, what do I do with my stock one? Just throw it on the side of the house and ignore it? :p

That's why I said I could get about the same results for $3500. I was going to get the spindles, the tubular upper arms from you, 13" Baer brakes, a Steeroids rack (you said the bolt on kits don't have optimal geometry, but the AFX spindles should correct that, right?), Del-a-lum bushings for the lower arms, coilovers, and then that should be it. And like you said, I could do it all piece by piece and sort of transform my car while I drive it.

I'll probably just go the piece by piece route, then. I can get a nice 5 speed or something with the change left over.

Matt

[6'9"Witha69]

Do not go the Steeroids route. Unisteer is the only bolt on rack I know that offers revised geometry for bumpsteer. It also costs less. The other route is to buy the 670 steering box from ATS. This costs even less and offeres the same feel as a rack. You also do not have potential clearance issues with the inpu shaft and headers, of course headers also have arguments with steering boxes. Me, I bought a remanufactured "sport" steeering box which was originally an option on the Camaro. In the end you decide but there will be even more change left for a clutch and shifter upgrade this way.

[Mean 69]

If I did save up and get the CW clip, what do I do with my stock one? Just throw it on the side of the house and ignore it?

My advise is to save up all of your coins and buy a replacement frame. Then when you do, I will GLADLY drive to your house, and take the stock frame off of your hands so you are not tripping over it!!!! I can be a really nice guy, you know.

In all honesty though, take a look at the Chicane LM package from ATS. It's a well thought out setup, and has a great deal of performance potential. As you noted, you can do it piece meal, so you can address other areas of your car that need great attention, and finish off the front stuff as you can afford it. I think this is an excellent way to go for most folks.

If you did insist on going with a new frame up front, I'd give serious consideration to the new unit from Art Morrison and gang. I have not seen it in person, but everything that they build is of outstanding quality, and they are terrific guys to boot. Nice to have choices!

Mark

[justanova]

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=26171

may be worth checking into the whole works from ats should be a badass setup with either that you choose.

[DarkoNova]

My advise is to save up all of your coins and buy a replacement frame. Then when you do, I will GLADLY drive to your house, and take the stock frame off of your hands so you are not tripping over it!!!! I can be a really nice guy, you know.

Do you know somethinga bout the stock clip that I don't?

Interesting, I've always heard the opposite about the Unisteer and Steeroiods racks. I've been told that the Unisteer one has basically no change in bumpsteer and the Steeroids one has a dramatic difference (for the better).

Somehow I missed that thread about the Chicane-LM setup.

I think what I'll do is just get the Chicane-LM setup, but I'll do it piece by piece since I mainly want disc brakes right now while I take care of other stuff on the car.

Thanks guys.

Matt

[Steve68]

Do me a favor kick your friend in the nuts! I'm going with the ATS kit,

[Marcus SC&C]

Matt, I`ve installed the Steeroids kit before and driven the car myself. Bumpsteer is bad,you don`t need a gauge you can watch the toe change from 10feet away when you let it down off the lift! The feel is not even as good as the original box. The turning radus is huge. My customer was really PO`d but he`d already changed his custom headers to clear the R&P and had them JetHot coated so he left it in. Real shame. The Unisteer kit is supposed to be better but I haven`t used one personally so I can`t say. Note that the ATS spindles relocate the steering arms from stock to correct the factory bumpsteer though so even if the Unisteer setup has good bumpsteer characteristics with stock spindles it won`t with the ATS spindles. Last remember pretty much ALL modern cars have R&Ps but how often to you drive one and say to yourself "WOW,this steering is awesome!". Racks can suck too. I`d suggest going with the Lee box from ATS too. Mark SC&C

[DarkoNova]

One of the reasons I wanted a rack was because aside from the mounting points, the only thing that could wear out is the tie rod ends, whereas the stock setup has like 10 things that could wear out. Plus it's lighter (supposedly). But oh well, I guess I'll stick with the tried and true stuff.

Matt

[ItsA68]

Note that the ATS spindles relocate the steering arms from stock to correct the factory bumpsteer though so even if the Unisteer setup has good bumpsteer characteristics with stock spindles it won`t with the ATS spindles.

Has anyone combined the ATS tall spindles and the Unisteer rack and checked the bumpsteer? I have the spindles, and the rack but neither are installed (no motor, no go :() I was under the impression that these two parts would work together with no problems. Am I just SOL, and should plan on ditching the rack, or will it work together? I'm going to check the bumpsteer either way, but if someone else has already done this combo, maybe they've solved the problem already. Help!

~~fred

[BRIAN]

Do yourself a favor and read all the responses. Notice the one that sticks out with real data and understanding of suspension designs??


If not CALL MARCUS!! Just a plug for a good guy who is into selling working combo's not hype.

[David Pozzi]

Here's an old thread with the Alston camber curve: https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3651

Do they have a power rack option or just manual rack?
How about large brakes?
David

[DarkoNova]

Yeah, they have power rack options and up to 13" brakes, I believe. Interesting measurements. I have no clue on how to read those, but I do remember seeing some graphs of the AFX spindles and if I remember correctly, they had a faster camber gain.

Matt