Performance comparison?

[Damn True]

Had an idea last night. We do a lot of bench racing here right? But we nearly always come to the conclusion that it is impossible to make a fair comparison of one car or setup against another. Usually it comes down to car-a is nowhere near car-b.

I think I may have come up with a way to apply a constant to the comparison. Here it goes:

The SCCA and NASA both have multiple classes that are "spec" series right? The rules for those classes are very rigid. A spec miata out west will be very close in performance to a spec miata back east. So the spec miata, or FFR or spec racer ford that holds a lap record at Laguna or Thunderhill would be capable of running at or near the lap record for the same class of car at another track.

So why not compare PT cars against this constant? If your '69 Camaro runs 2sec faster than spec miata at Road Atlanta we can assume that you'd be within a tick or two of spec miata at Thunderhill right? If that is the case then we can further assume that if Adam is 2sec faster than spec miata at his local track in Michigan and Carl is 3sec faster than spec miata at Willow that Carls car is a bit faster than Adams.

Fair?

Discuss......

[formula]

we're gonna need a lot of spec miatas...lol

I like the idea of it! I was thinking earlier today that I wish there was some sort of way to create a "p-t dyno" that would benchmark all of the performance attributes of a car without all of the possible variations present in normal test regimens.

[Damn True]

If you google "[name of track] lap record" you can find the info for nearly any track in the US. At least the ones that are frequented by NASA and/or the SCCA.

[harshman]

i always thought that the driver had alot to do with it. if and when my flippin' car gets done, i'm going to need some track time and schooling.

[TLWiltman]

Well, the real measurement here is how well a particular driver interacts with a particular car. That said, "benchmarking" is still valid

[Hidro]

the driver had alot to do with it.

What he said....

[vanzuuk1]

Its an interesting idea but too many variables,driver,conditions etc.

My money would be on the miata at most tracks. Ouch.

[Stu Seitz]

My money would be on the miata at most tracks. Ouch.

Darn, beat me to it.

[6'9"Witha69]

we're gonna need a lot of spec miatas...lol

I almost fell out of my chair laughing.

You're talking spec miata record times, which are acheived by drivers who may be different, but hold a best lap time because they are at the top of their driving game. It is assumed that they drive a spec Miata regularly and have a lot of seat time. So yes, the Miata comparison might work. BUT, since we are all at differnt levels of capabilities behind the wheel, it creates two variables which skews the measurement. Example: a bone stock '67 Chevelle and a Built '69 Camaro. We know that a stock tank Chevelle v. a modified Camaro (for fun we will say it is el mule), the Mule is by far superior. No brainer. But if say Dave Pozzi drove the Chevelle and Joe Blow from Podunk Arkansas drove el mule, and Dave will most likely win, does that infer the stock Chevelle suspension and setup was superior?? NO! The driver becomes the true variable and negates any car to car comparison.

[Damn True]

What you are saying is true regarding driver ability. A good driver can usually make a slow car better, but a good car usually does not make a bad driver better. But there are exceptions. Witness Bobby Rahal at last years Montery Historics getting SMOKED by some dentist because the car Rahal was in was a POS.

That said if you are running within a few ticks of a record at Willow, and I am running a few ticks from a record at Thunderhill we can infer that the combination of car/driver are pretty close.

An interesting topic just the same.

[Matt@RFR]

True, my take on it is that your idea is great for bragging rights and comparisons, but worthless for testing different components against each other.

There's only one way to do it: Same car, same driver, same track, same weather, ONE change at a time, and allow time for tuning after each change. And the results MUST include driver commentary on each change, not just numbers, IE "It's a tenth faster, but man is it scary to drive."

[Bill Howell]

I am with Matt as far as his "True Comparison". That is the only way to compare parts. However, in the real world, driver ability is certainly in the mix. Everyone is a rock star in their mind until they actually drive in a real car on a real track under real race conditions. Then everyone finds out their faults.

It is really strange to me that for the first time ever, there will be about 40-50 cars right here, in Pigeon Forge, to do a bit of comparison and this board has been absolutely silent about it. You would think there would be a bit of smack talk anyway but not a peep. Funny thing is, after years of talking the talk, I guess for the most part we have a bunch of bench racers here. Sure, there have been some killer racing on the west coast between a select few of members, but we have NEVER had the chance to see any real racing on the east coast. Come on guys, lets hear some smack, lets hear some predictions, lets hear something. I personally have seen some of the participants coming already in action on the power tour. This should be an event for everyone within 1000 miles trying to attend. We almost have a full field now for the autocross which is no parking lot course. Personally, I am so looking forward to going up against some of the hottest cars in protouring right now and seeing just where my junk falls. I know it will be an eye opener for everyone that attends. Who knows, maybe a 4th gen camaro will have bragging rights, maybe a new Z06. Maybe a 69 camaro. Trueth is, there will be some questions answered here in about 6 weeks. Regardless of who comes out on top, we will have some bench marks for the bench racers to talk about.

[Damn True]

Bill, your enthusiasim is infectious. {According to Johnson you have some other things that are infectious as well, but this is a family show....} I sincerely hope you get a BUNCH of participants in the auto-x. Perhaps that is a topic for it's own thread? You could post the entry list and give the opportunity for the smack-talk to begin and us outsiders to lay our own bets.

I just think that some referance against as close to a "constant" as possible might be usefull. Particularly when for instance a vendor claims "improved handling" or some other such thing.

[Bill Howell]

LOL, sorry, I did not mean to steal your thread, maybe I will start another one, but this was the perfect chance to mention the silence about the event. I truely wish we had a car here with the three link from Lateral Dymanics here. I don't think there are any on this side of the country that is ready to run yet. I am no suspension guru myself and would really like to see two similar cars with say the three link and the DSE four link and see how both performed on both the autocross and drag strip. Like Matt said earlier, this would not really be a true comparison since no two cars are exactly alike, but you get the idea. I have heard bench comparisons, but I really want to see both in action and make my own decisions. Too bad Bad Penny will not be quite finished, I would think with similar motors yet the two different rears, Penny and Fuel would be a good pair to look at. I may be way off, but that would be my idea of a layman's comparison. Especially if we had one driver for both or both guys drove both cars.
Anyway, just a thought.

[Damn True]

No worries at all. That comparo would be fun to watch.

[Steve Chryssos]

Bill, your enthusiasim is infectious. {According to Johnson you have some other things that are infectious as well, but this is a family show....} I sincerely hope you get a BUNCH of participants in the auto-x. Perhaps that is a topic for it's own thread? You could post the entry list and give the opportunity for the smack-talk to begin and us outsiders to lay our own bets.

I just think that some referance against as close to a "constant" as possible might be usefull. Particularly when for instance a vendor claims "improved handling" or some other such thing.

.... If your '69 Camaro runs 2sec faster than spec miata at Road Atlanta we can assume that you'd be within a tick or two of spec miata at Thunderhill right? If that is the case then we can further assume that if Adam is 2sec faster than spec miata at his local track in Michigan and Carl is 3sec faster than spec miata at Willow that Carls car is a bit faster than Adams.
Fair?
Discuss......

No, it's the same thread. Your idea Sounds fair. But it also seems kinda rigid for a bunch of hot rods. If you want to compete against spec Miatas, BUILD A SPEC MIATA. If you want to build a fast, interesting, multi-purpose hot rod, build a pro-touring car. And never lose sight of the fact that your pro-touring car is a hot rod. With regards to racing, I can think of many better starting platforms than 69 Camaros and 71 cudas. There are many faster, cheaper, lighter foundations--including Miatas, Lotusises (Lotii?) Fox Mustangs, Beemer 3's, late model 'vettes etc. It's a long list.

So if you are starting with a 68 Camaro, you're a hot rodder. Have fun with it and quit looking for thousandths of a inch and tenths of a second.

RTH2 is the first in a series of total performance driving events for HOT RODDERS to be set up by Bill Howell and myself. Don't whine because we lack a road course--we'll get there sooner than later. We're off to a good start. Baby steps. Some people complain that we don't drive our cars. They complain that there is no comparison between cars and parts.

Well, here you go. Same tracks, same day, same clock, same weather. Car against car. One subframe against the other. The event is filling up nicely. No complaints from the sponsors. But, like Bill, I'm surprized that there isn't more buzz being generated. There's no need to participate. You can spectate, hitch a ride, or just bench race on a message board about possible outcomes. Will Detroit Speed's car win the autocross or fail miserably? Will Bob Johnson's cuda haul ass or blow up? Did two roughly similar Camaros with different clips perform the same or are they light years apart? We will have that comparison. Jason Huber's 69 Camaro has a DSE Quadra-link and a modded stock clip. DSE's 69 Camaro has a Quadra-Link and their new clip. The cars are reasonably equal. I'm dying to see those two cars run head to head. And I'm dying to run against them. I plan on spanking them both with my skinny tires and leaf springs. And there will be others. We will probably see every possible permutation of 1st gen Camaro.

Is this a hyper accurate technical comparison? Who cares? We have barbecue! There will be cole slaw! Bob Johnson will tell obscene jokes! And we will drive. It's all done in the spirit of hot rodding.

Where is the buzz?

[Bill Howell]

What???? Bob Johnson tell a politically incorrect joke or two????? No way.
Cars actually putting rubber on the ground......you're kidding me......

Go ahead and spank all of em Steve, then I will just have to race you for the bragging rights. Won't that be some stuff when out of all the bad ass cars present a lowly 80 g-body comes home with the trophy....

[Neil B]

I think it would be cool if people posted their lap times in the Racing Events section of the forum. There are a lot of factors involved, but if someone's haulin' a consistently, I think it will inspire discussion about that particular combo.

[Beegs]

I think what he is getting at with the spec Miata thing is they have raced at most every track so there is a number we can use to compare for the sake of comparing. I think it is a reasonable idea, not totally accurate but a reference point with a +/- attached to it.

Bill, my bucket of S**T is not ready for your show but I am salivating at the thought of flying down to witness the carnage.

[Steve Chryssos]

I think what he is getting at with the spec Miata thing is they have raced at most every track so there is a number we can use to compare for the sake of comparing. I think it is a reasonable idea, not totally accurate but a reference point with a +/- attached to it.

Bill, my bucket of S**T is not ready for your show but I am salivating at the thought of flying down to witness the carnage.

Come on down. You can hitch a ride with us. We'll give you a ride in a variety of cars. After that experience, you will find that an accurate comparison of hot rods is wholly unnecessary--not irrelavent, just unnecessary.