Paypal = Bent Over without the vaseline....

[Tydriver]

I will warn you ahead of time, this is rather LONG. I want to share a buyer beware horror story about Paypal with you. This is still a little fresh in my mind (and my wallet is still burning) so please dont be offended if I go off the deep end about the $134+ I lost through Paypal.

Here is scenario.. I purchased these transmission lines from Ebay auction :

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...BSAA%3AUS%3A11



and this is what I received :



OK, now we are done with show, its time for the TELL part...

I bought the stainless braided lines on ebay 05-25-06 and paid within moments of the auction closing.. I heard nothing from the seller until I received a postal email advising me of a tracking number for an item shipped on 05-30-06.

One week goes by, and no shipping details have been updated on the post office website. 1st email sent to the seller goes unanswered.

I wait about 5-6 days and send off a 2nd email to the seller goes unanswered by the seller (this puts me into around June 10-12th.)

3rd Unanswered email to the seller gets fired off a couple days after this, around June 15th advising seller that future lack of response is going to result in a PayPal Dispute. I know that you will find it very hard to believe, that they didnt respond to this email either so lets just fast forward to the Paypal dispute.

June 18th, I notify Paypal that I want to enter the dispute process, only then to FINALLY receive a response from the vendor, at this point I am thinking WAHOOOO !! I am going to get my lines, they claim the lines were shipped out 05-30-06 as in the post office email, oddly enough the post office NEVER shows anything being shipped at this point. They only show the electronic transmittal paperwork being started but no activity past that.

3 days later (oddly enough, exactly the time the post office takes to delivery priority mail from when I started the dispute) a package arrives !!! I was like FINALLY.. Only to open it up and see the blue bulk hose and the press on fittings shown above and NOT the stainless lines pictured in the auction. Within 1 hour, I am back at the post office shipping the BOGUS parts back to the vendor. I acqure a tracking number and escalate the status of the PayPal dispute to full MEDIATION BY PAYPAL.

Here's where the fun really begins...June 21st the escalation begins between paypal and myself. By this time, I figuire its a done deal, I have all the proof of returning the part and I should be receivng my $134.29 back.. June 27th I receive the following email from paypal :

PayPal has concluded our investigation into your claim.

Transaction Date: May 25, 2006
Transaction Amount: -$134.29 USD
Seller's Name: Carla Dawson
Seller's Email: [email protected]

In response to your claim, the seller has provided proof of shipment indicating that the item was shipped to you. Because the seller was able to provide proof of shipment, we cannot reverse this transaction or issue a refund. We encourage you to continue to work directly with the seller to amicably resolve this matter.

PayPal does not tolerate fraud or illegal activities. Your complaint has been noted in the record of the PayPal user you reported. If we find this user has violated our policies, we will investigate and take appropriate action. If this occurs, you may be contacted in the future about the status of this complaint.

To make sure future transactions proceed smoothly, we suggest you visit the PayPal site and click the Security Center link located at the bottom of any page. There you will find tips on how to avoid fraudulent sellers in the "Fraud Prevention Tips for Buyers" section.


As you can well imagine, I am totally pissed at this point. I proceed to contact PayPal directly via the telephone.. First contact was a person named JACK (who didnt know JACK !) Paypal is telling me that I am stuck for the $134, and that since the seller provided proof that something was shipped (ANYTHING, they really DONT care what was shipped) they are done and I no longer have any dispute rights. PERIOD.. Of course this escalates further into me talking to Jack's Supervisor "Allyson". This lady has slightly more intelligence, and proceeds to tell me how great Paypal is, and that they are "protecting my personal and financial information from sellers" I am like, well so doesnt my credit card, why use you ? They would have refunded my money by now.. This conversation ends up in a 30 minute battle over the phone.. Which results in the following action, Paypal has agreed to offer me an "APPEAL" but since I lost the first dispute chances are, it most likely, wouldnt be overturned. I offered the following analogy :

Sell a diamond ring on ebay for $500 for example. I can sell this item on ebay and wait until the person purchasing this auction files a dispute through paypal... Then as long as I can provide proof that I shipped them ANYTHING, I get to keep the $500, yes.. I can even ship them a box of DOG**** and they dont care !! so long as I can provide proof that SOMETHING was sent they will side in my favor !!! I cant believe this.. The operator at PayPal admitted this is the case however quickly cautioned that this is indeed FRAUD (NO REALLY ?? WOW !! Why dont you protect your members then from this activity ??).

She claims that there is indeed NO RECOURSE through paypal for this scenario and I am welcome to contact either or both of the following websites:

Internet Fraud Complaint Center - http://www.ic3.gov
National Fraud Information Center - http://www.fraud.org

[sarcasm] Yeah, I am sure they are going to be all over the $134 I lost, like they dont have larger cases to research and prosecute !! [/sarcasm]

OK, so now the Appeal has been filed and I receive an email from paypal asking for a complete history of the transaction (it was already listed in the dispute transaction history already, but remember the paypal monkeys CANT read and dont really want to settle anything anyhow.)

Withing 24 hrs I am to receive a response after I file my side of the story which I completed ASAP with the following email :

The auction in question is for some transmission oil cooler lines. The
auction clearly shows lines that are pre-made from stainless braided lines
with machine assembled ends (in most cases LEAK FREE). I have uploaded a
picture of the AUCTION HOSE here:
http://www.turbols6.com/albums/4L80e-Trans/abq.jpg

The item received was an "self assembly" setup thats proven to be leak
proned over time. If I wanted to purchase a do it yourself kit I would have
gone to my local hardware store and purchased the appropriate fittings and
rubber hoses (similar to what was actually received) for a fraction of what
I paid in this auction.

The lines pictured in the auction are braided stainless which is resistant
to damage and vibration due to their very design, whereas the hose received
is merely rubber hose and not as resistant to damage because the hose does
NOT have the braided covering. This is what I actually received from the
vendor:
http://www.turbols6.com/albums/4L80e-Trans/abh.jpg

The item received was promptly returned to the vendor immediately after its reception and was noted as not being the same and a credit was asked for as well as notification of the impending paypal dispute (the USPS tracking# for the return is: 0306 0320 0001 6653 9194 ). www.usps.gov shows it being received at the sellers location on 06-26-06.

Every attempt to contact the vendor on my part has gone UNANSWERED, the only email that was answered was when the initial paypal dispute was filed. That was the only time I heard from the seller. Their account on Ebay has also been suspended so I have no recourse through ebay since they are "NO LONGER A REGISTERED USER".

The auction clearly states the following:
You are bidding on a new set of Performance Stainless Steel Braided
Transmission cooler lines!
Custom -6 Stainless Steel Braided transmission lines.

Rated at 3000 PSI.
-100F to +450F Operating Temperatures.
Extremely Flexible!


This kit includes;

a.. Stainless -6 kit with one 54" and one 66" line.
b.. Adapter fittings for your radiator.
c.. Adapter fittings for your transmission.


What was received clearly shows in the pictures was NOT what was pictured or described in the auction. I have done all I know how to do, I dont know how else to get a response from the vendor. I attempted to locate their information in directory assistance. Every phone number has been disconnected or is no longer in service. Any emails I send go unanswered. Ebay has suspended their account. I really do NOT know what else to do in
order to reach this vendor and ask for a credit. Should you require anything additional from me, please let me know.


Shortly after my email to paypal, I receive this response to the "APPEAL"

Dear Todd,

Hello my name is Cheri.

PayPal understands your concern and desire to resolve the dispute in question. However, once a claim has been canceled, it is considered resolved and cannot be reopened.



Should you have the need to file another claim in the future, we suggest that you do not cancel the claim until you have received the merchandise or a refund.

We encourage you to continue to work with the seller for a mutual
resolution. You can seek other avenues of resolution such as an auction website if one was used to conduct this transaction. We value your business and regret that you have had this experience. To avoid similar experiences in the future, we recommend that you read our dispute resolution policy by clicking on https://www.paypal.com/bcp You may also copy and paste the
entire link into the address bar.

If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us again.

Sincerely,
Cheri
Protection Services Department
PayPal, an eBay Company



OK, so since THEY CANCELLED the 1st dispute (NOT ME) I am going to pay for it.. Because their rule is, ONE SHOT ONLY.. I dont get it... The monkeys at PayPal must be eating TAINTED BANANAS !!!



So at this point heres where I stand:

1. Paypal advises me to contact the seller, Of course I have 3 times with no response, now that they have my $$$ and the product I'm sure they will be quick to respond.

2. Paypal has washed their hands of the entire scenario, they are clearly SELLER ORIENTATED and could give a **** about the purchaser.

3. My wallet is $134.29 Lighter and I dont have a single thing to show for it except an increasing headache.

4. The Ebay USER ID has been suspended so I have little to no recourse through ebay.


Here is what I would strongly suggest to anyone that has made it this far and is still coherent after reading all this...

1. AVOID PAYPAL

2. Obviously the 1st thing is hard to do because most ebay vendors embrace paypal with open arms. So do NOT have it linked directly to your checking account.. Link it to a CREDIT CARD so you have further recourse through them and obviously more rights !

3. Always apply a very LIBERAL COAT of vaseline when filing a claim through paypal !

Here are some additional Facts concerning the fraudulent vendor

Ebay ID is/was cpperformancesales

(personal information removed by moderator,sorry.)

No doubt this is NOT over.. I am going to continue to follow this and attempt to recover my $$, I wanted to share this so potential buyers on PAYPAL realize they really have NO RIGHTS if the seller provides proof of shipment.

[chicane67]

Get yourself an attorney, get some free advise and sue both PayPal and the vendor. Negligence on the behalf of PayPal and fraud on the behalf of the vendor.

The best part.... is sueing Paypal for seven + figures.... and turning it into a class action lawsuit.

Or hire a PI and get enough information about the individual and/or business in question and put a lean on everything they own. That is the eaisest and cheapest thing to do to OWN them.

And visit this site: http://paypalsucks.com/

[gEtyOpAPiOn]

i had a problem with paypal too ....what i did was ....i called my bank and told them it was an unathorized transaction .....but i never got a part so i got my money refunded in 24hrs (bank of america) and then paypal had my account with a negative balance of 1100 ...which was for a procharger that i was supposed to get from ls1tech which was a scam .....so then paypal called me and i told them i never made that trasnaction and they had to eat it ....a lil taste of their own medicine ....a week later the negative balance disapeared

[TonyL]

so tell me, why no negative feedback on her ID?
she's only got 15 feedbacks, all positive, I'd start there.

have you sent the hoses back? you need to, and document that, so you'll have a leg to stand on.

[gEtyOpAPiOn]

im sure a classaction lawsuit against ebay and paypal is arround the corner lol they have way too many flaws and they make lots of money hehe

[Tydriver]

so tell me, why no negative feedback on her ID?
she's only got 15 feedbacks, all positive, I'd start there.

have you sent the hoses back? you need to, and document that, so you'll have a leg to stand on.

Their ebay Account was suspended before I could post anything negative against them...

I did document the hoses being sent back.. There is USPS tracking number in the above thread..

Its confirms delivery...



As far as an attny or class action suit etc.. Reality is, I only lost $134, not a huge amount but more than enough to piss me off... It would cost me significantly MORE than that to pursue any legal action against anyone involved (assuming the deadbeat vendor can be found).

Sad part is, this is my hobby.. And when stuff like this happens, its really disheartening and really puts a sour taste in your mouth for projects.. My truck has been apart longer than its been together, now that I can finally make some progress, this happens.. UGH..

[Steve1968LS2]

Why I never use Paypal.. it just plain sucks.. badly..

[chicane67]

Reciprocity is a sweet thing my man..... for a $134.00 or not.

If we let society by and let them think that this is something tolerable, we will be taken advantage time and time again. But, if you do not slap them just once.... and slap real hard, complacency becomes reality.

[nancejd]

If the shipper used USPS, they are hosed, file a mail fraud complaint, that's a felony. I'd also notify your bank that the transacation is in dispute, include all of your correspondence to both the seller and paypal, they may do nothing, but you never know. Also, just to mess with Paypal, file suit in your local small claims court, it will cost them more to defend the suit than they ever made of of you. At least her in Washington, it's only $25, but I bet you would get more satisfaction out of it than that.

[Damn True]

The above is the right call. A pending mail fraud charge ought to straighten the shipper out rather quickly.

Note: eBay owns Paypal which ought to illustrate some of the problems you are having with the two.

I too have been burned by paypal. To the tune of negative strikes on my credit and over three months spent without being able to use either my credit card or visa debit card. Which is why I advise any and all people to NEVER FREAKIN USE eBAY OR PAYPAL!

[DusterRT]

Reverse look-up the address that you sent the hoses back to (reversephonedirectory.com); get a phone number. Try calling..they likely won't be expecting that. Might be able to get a name and home address through that as well.

If that doesn't work, and they're not too terribly far (and the address isn't a PO box), I'd go pay them a visit. Might not get your hoses, might not get your money; but you'll feel better since you did just about everything in your power if you don't want to deal with lawyers for such a (relatively) small amount of money. They can ignore emails and phone calls, but ignoring someone standing in front of them is gonna be much more difficult. I'm in no way advocating violence, vandalism, etc, which can turn the cards completely around on you though.

I've never been burned too badly yet, but I've got a gameplan ahead of time should I need it!

[USAZR1]

Why I never use Paypal.. it just plain sucks.. badly..

Yep,crap like this is exactly why I've never considered having it.

[dropit69]

yep thats a good one ..my brother got ripped on a comp cause seller sent him the papers on comp first..showed he recieved a package he got 750 dollar paperwork..

[rockdogz]

Hmm, scary... I've never had a problem with Paypal yet. Why does the auction show the seller having a button linking to paypalsucks.com??

[MrQuick]

Should have filed a complaint with Ebay first then go with refund via paypal. Its clearly a fraudulent seller. I've run into alot of scams and have been saved by Ebay. User beware.

[Rick Dorion]

I too was sent an item which wasn't what I bid on and won. Paypal didn't do anything but ebay did and I got my money back. Took about a month. I agree that you should pursue all avenues. It's a matter of principle. Good luck.

[vanzuuk1]

If you have a name and addresse of the shipper, reach out to a speed shop or someone in their area, a few hours on the phone and internet might get you the personal info of the person who @#$%^ed you. What you do with that info is up to you, but a phone call to the individual would be start. Even though its not a huge sum of money in this case, I always try and make the person think twice about screwing the next guy.

[rohrt]

Wow that is an Education for me! Never yet had a problem but I think I will take your advice and use my credit card only from now on.

I can really relate. I found out last week that someone took $80 right out of my checking account through the routing number for a 900 number. I have the # and I know its a local cell #. The place that charged me called the guy and he claimed to be me but couldn't verify his address. I got my money back but the cops don't want to do a dam thing. The $80 that has been refunded, is a crime against property (misdomener) and no one cares and they don't want to put the time in to find the person who is pretending to be me. I'm still still working on getting the name on my own. I'm pissed that I have to change checking accounts, its a huge pain in my ass.

I know what your going through. Crime seems to pay these days. Just screw many people with small charges and get away with it. Sorry thats the end of my rant.

I have a good friend that had built his car through ebay. Some 600 transactions I think and he has been screwed so many times I cant believe it. He bought some great th400 transmission for $700 that was suppose to be bullet proff and got a big steaming pill of S--t. The local guy that went through it said there was not one usable part inside and that the case was even bad. The other big item that he got screwed on was a engine block. Its was already machined and ready to go or so he thought. One of the oil passeges was full of RTV and he starved half the engine of oil thus having to change out most of the valve train components. Kinda his fault for not going through it him self but just goes to show that some its some times better to pay local people that are astablished to do the work and have someone to go back to latter.

I'm with the others. Work all the avenues to try and locate him and break his legs if you get a chance.

[MrQuick]

Yes, throwing the credit card people in there gives you 3 avenues of attack.

Just watch your complaint time. Do not procrastinate.

As soon as there seems to be a problem, notify ebay so it is on the records. When ever you contact or are contacted by a seller, save your emails. Always have an email trail. When you ask a question, send a copy to your email via the " send a copy to my email" box. Ebay uses those to make a clain...NOT your Ebay message folder.

Watch out for sellers offering to deal off of Ebay to "save you money". If you agree you are not protected and it is most likely a scam.

Always pay on the invoice and never pay to a pay pal account that was not listed in the original sale or invoice. I see this alot and you loose big.

Just a few tips to help protect you.

[D Rock]

IF you pay with paypal through a credit card though, can you not get the credit card company to not pay, usually the Credit card companies will drop the charge if you tell them it was not authorized.