R12 private purchase.

[derekf]

"Global Warming" has the potential to rapidly become a political discussion. Please don't let it go that direction.

[ProTouring442]

"Global Warming" has the potential to rapidly become a political discussion. Please don't let it go that direction.

Sorry if it does, don't mean it too. Just pointing out that we don't know.

If anyone finds it offensive, I'll gladly delete it!

Shiny Side Up!
Bill
'72 442 "Inamorata"
www.fquick.com/ProTouring442

[MonzaRacer]

One if you buy R12 illegally you can an still do reap the rewards of the fines, Installer $10k, immediate supervisor (ie boss, service manager) $25k, store manager/shop owner $100k.
I for one just love seeing people try to patch/fix AC on there own.
After being an AC tech for many years and seeing people just (dump) install R12 and then wonder why they have problems.
Another thing is the small cans are no longer available for the most part and if you get any they may be counterfeit.
Drop ins are not a fix. another thing is its illegal to use drop ins improperly.
ALL REFRIGERANTS MUST BE LABELED,AND HAVE SPECIFIC ADAPTERS INSTALLED. cross contamination is possible if you add several things and does anyone know what R12/R134A mixed together makes, a carbon tetrachloride bomb.
Please just pony up and take you ride to a respectable profesional and get it recycled, evacted( pulled to vacuum to boil off the possible moisture in the AC system that degrades the dessicant and degrades the performance) add proper amounts of UV dye and recharge with manufacturers recommeneded amount of refrigerant.
Now if you are smart you purchase a new drier/accumulator/rebuilt VIR etc containing either XH7 or XH9 dessicant (7 is most popular as its compatible with both refrigerants) retrofit with (in older systems) ester refrigerant oil (if you use a newer model compressor it may require PAG oil instead) then recharge the system with 80% to 100% of normal capacity with R134A. A good flushing is always proper to remove any bad contaminates. And most of the drop ins dont wont carry lubricant right nor match the dessicants. ANS just dumping it in is a good way to trash it.
If yor car uses an orifice tube you should use an AAOT (automatic adjusting orifce tube) as it makes the system function more efficiently (I use them on r12 and retrofits).
I actually have removed much of the hardware from stock systems ,used a repair orifice tube holder (if it fits) in the line to the evaporator, then retrofit an accumulator/dryer and cycling switch to the system then recharge ( if you use a good air flow through the condenser, and use rule of max low side idle psi of 28psi and then rev it up to about 1500 to 2000 and it not cycle out then its full enough. Then I add 2 retrofit tags one underhood and one on door (I will option to put the second tag in trunk/glovebox/console) the tags are to have the amount of refrigerant and amount of oil system uses and type.
Trust me you can patch and scrounge and do it all wrong but in the long run you can get in trouble, trash the system and just plain not work properly.
Guys you can tell me im full of it but a friend had to go out of buisness after getting busted for using un approved refrigerants.
You guys will blow $10k on suspension,paint,interior,driveline but NOT take it to profesional to be fixed properly.
As for the environment problems actually sunlight breaks ozone down and ozones best production plnat on the earth is ,,,the oceans. Iron/steel in salt water will produce more ozone than you can believe.
But Chloroflorocarbons do breakdown ozone but many more time the tonnage in mobile AC systems was used in industry for years. AND R134A is still a greenhouse gas.
But why do we shy away from doing something that makes sense? Do we want to drink water with lead in it, no we recycle the batteries from our cars. They started finding that MTBE (an oxegenate used in gasoline) was showing up in kids blood streams so we switched to ,,hhmmmm alcohol,and it has higher octane rating ok much safer and better for economy. (hey E85 is 105 octane at the pump, 13 to 1 popups anyone?).
We wouldnt dump motor oil in our home well if we had one would we so why are we so hyped about vewnting refrigerant to air, adding it our selfs and doing it wrong in first place.
Besdies most places will identify your system content and if its pure recycle it for you (yes some ask a price for it as the equipment is very expensive)
Oh and if you decide to Vintage Air has some awesome stuff and it uses very little refrigerant and is pretty much bullet proof.
Ok now flame me , scream at me call me what ever but I know what it takes to do it right and this is not your biggest expense, that $2k for brakes maybe is though? huh?
Lee Abel
ASE Master automotive Technician
ASE L1 Advanced Engine performance Technician
ASE Master Gas Engine MAchinist
ASE F1 Alternative Fuels Technician
ASE X! Ehaust Specialist
ASE Undercar Specialist
IMACA Certifies
Advance Engine Management Strageties
and 20+ yrs on the job and under a tree.
AFTERMARKET PERFORMANCE

[ProTouring442]

But Chloroflorocarbons do breakdown ozone but many more time the tonnage in mobile AC systems was used in industry for years. AND R134A is still a greenhouse gas.
But why do we shy away from doing something that makes sense? Do we want to drink water with lead in it, no we recycle the batteries from our cars. They started finding that MTBE (an oxegenate used in gasoline) was showing up in kids blood streams so we switched to ,,hhmmmm alcohol,and it has higher octane rating ok much safer and better for economy.

My point was that we simply don't know. That MTBE that is polluting my local ground water (need to get my well tested) was MANDATED by the government, and pushed heavily by those scientists who love to rant about climate change. The same ones who said it was going to get colder, and now say it's going to get warmer. They said MTBE was the stuff to save us, now it's the stuff that's going to kill us. Why do we listen to these guys?

And where do we get our information, the news. Yeah great source there, remember the "exploding" Chevy pick ups? Same station did a report on a factory in VA (I think it was VA) that was killing fish by the thousands, they even showed pictures. Only problem? The pictures were of stunned fish from some scientist's sonic experiments. Seems that when they showed up to see the dead fish at the factiry, there weren't any so they just showed some file footage of what looked like dead fish.

Yes, we should get a professional to work on our A/C systems. Then again, most pro's won't work on an unknown system. The hybrid system in my 442 for example; I have no idea how much refrigerent belongs in it. No idea how much oil should be added. I will use propper lines, and 134A, and I will vent as little as possible when dialing the system in. It's the best I can do. From there I may have it drawn down to see how much is really there, and make a note of what it was to if I ever need to refill I can do so without venting any.

Anyway, sorry for the rant.

Shiny Side Up!
Bill
'72 442 "Inamorata"
www.FQuick.com/ProTouring442

[LS6 Tommy]

Here's another good one- The $25k "reward" for turning someone in to the EPA for venting or improper handling/sales of refrigerant has NEVER been awarded to anyone. There isn't even a fund for it.

Tommy

[MonzaRacer]

As for the reward it was written but never implemented under EPA mandate.
Yes MTBE was touted as a better way to go but do you know in what it was replacing for octane modification in gasoline? LEAD and we already know what that can do to young children.
MTBE was and is a great product for certain industrial uses in a controle d environment where it can be reclaimed as a VOC (similar to ford using VOC from paint to run a 55 Kilowatt generator).
But MTBE burns slower(hence the octane rating over lead)but had we had infrastructure to use alcohol back in the day we would have as we know its ricks/benefits.
Now as for a shop not wanting to work on it then you need to find a shop who has someone in it who actually cares about doing good work and not some shop that only wants the "quick and dirty" money jobs.
I fuss with my service manager all the time that we need to take some more technicaly challenging jobs but he keeps saying we dont have time/we shouldnt get into this but I keep only getting minimum week paychecks so,,,,,.
I for one will work on ANYTHING if they put it in front of me and I work for Bridgestone/Firestone at a Mastercare facility.
As for AC if yhe shop wont work on the system "because" its not factory, then most likely they dont understand AC thermal dynamics and the basics for AC service. Another thig to ask for is if they have a refrigerant identifier.
Again the best way to fill a retrofit or mixed aprt aftermarket set up is get it to hard vacuum for atleast an hour on a new drier and 2 hours on an old(re used drier ,and this means one used with same refrigrant going back in NEVER MIX REFRIGERANTS or use R134A in an R12 system without proper cleaning and replacement of drier dessicant)drier.
Then I add R134A refrigerant with system powered up till compressor kicks in (you can also jumper the switch but this tells you if switch is working if you dont) then with a strong fan on condenser to maintain a steady high side reading, you add till you get a steady 28 psi on low side then you rev engine up to 1500-2000 and see if it cycles out. IF it pulls down to past low side cycle switch and kicks out , opps do you have R12 or R134A switch on it? As R134A has a lower preasure point it needs a different switch, most vehicles (or partial systems tagged from specific vehicle) if current models, will have newer factory R134A system and you can use those switches (or if you are like most hot rodders just go to junkyard and finde R134A car and tag switch with same connector make up).
I also use a dual probe temp guage and what you should look for in an AC system is a 30 degree drop inside and if I remeber corectly the difference of temps on a condenser should be 40 deg difference from inlet ot outlet (ie higher as it is rejecting heat to atmosphere) aluminum collor condensers are harder to check so finding a smooth flat area and giving it a shot of (masked properly of course)flat black paint so tech has a place to check with temp gun is handy and you dont need to paint whole core if you dont want.
But black aluminum condesers reject heat faster than bare aluminum and the bare one has no environmental protection.
Now copper/brass rads need paint to help reject heat better AND retain fins adhesion to tubes (ie it glues then together ) BUT plastic /alum rads need to be bare(they are treated to not corrode, hmm why dont they do all condenser i dont know (it really depends on condenser manufacturers some paint some dont).
And if anyone is ever in Bloomington Indiana just swing over on east side and look me up at Firestone,,, ask for Lee, and I can usually fix up the sys tem no problem.
Good luck to all
Lee Abel

[ProTouring442]

You are definitely a different breed of mechanic, most don't want to touch anything "challenging." It's too bad, those sorts of jobs can be fun and educational, if not always financially rewarding.

Further, you are correct in that most don't understand air conditioning. They also don't understand electricity.

Anyway, you make good points, and if I were near you I would definitely bring you my car once it's done. I have converted the A/c in my 442 to run a cycling compressor (using an adjustable GM cycle switch) with an automatic adjusting orifice tube (I also converted it to use a tube). I chose the serpentine system I am running so I could use a larger compressor. I didn't feel, and the engineer I spoke to agreed with me, that the smaller compressor would move enough refrigerant to keep the evaporator flooded. Everything is new, so I can go with the correct oil, etc. with no problem.


Shiny Side Up!
Bill
'72 442 "Inamorata"
www.FQuick.com/ProTouring442

[MonzaRacer]

Hey Bill great to hear you got it all fixed up and working. As for electricity i have a very good point to make,,,I was stranded once for a problem that the previous mechanic failed to fix on my first car(a 66 Dart GT slant 6 auto),,, he forgot to ground the second field winding on my car after replacing the alternator.
anyway after dad having to come pick me and my girl friend up after "parking " out on country road (and the questions of "why" we were out here,,, duh think a second dad) and well I figuredout that I needed to understnad the basics of automechanics and found a school that actually taught these(wish I had paid more closely when we started in on FI but I figured I could get away with 20 or so years of working on carbs and not nor FI hah, cant get boss to let me work on fellas carb (too much trouble ,no one works on them anymore, blah blah blah).
Oh well I just wonder if anyone would like an automotive "encyclopedia" set written for specificly for car crafters outlining basics and tips/tricks as found/figured out by hotrodders that work.
I hope to be able to help people out soon as I am looking for web space to do such a thing. wont make any money but might help someone like me(way back when) when they are just starting.
I have had to build everything I drive so far so it either works or gets me by till I can fix it better later on.
Lee